Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[Flying Fox 34F]

I mean’t Tamper Driver, bloody phone

[ianathompson]

12 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

The strangest thing I’ve heard from the mouth of a Tamper was,

 

Could be common sense from what I could see!

I often wondered if it was mandatory to disconnect/remove brain before getting into one of the things.

 

Ian T

 

 

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

The strangest thing I’ve heard from the mouth of a Tamper was, “I don’t sign that crossover, mate?????”

 

You can imagine my response!

 

Paul

Did it start “Excuse me driver, could you possibly reconsider . . . “

:-)

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, ianathompson said:

 

Could be common sense from what I could see!

I often wondered if it was mandatory to disconnect/remove brain before getting into one of the things.

 

Ian T

 

 

If you had any sense before you got in, the shaking you'd get during the job would knock it all out of you.

[Sharky]

On 08/05/2020 at 18:01, St Enodoc said:

Just looking at the diagram, Graham, and without any knowledge of how it was actually worked, I reckon that Down trains would be put inside using the Up Siding, via 5 and 3 crossovers. The "North End Crossover" might have been to let pilot locos reverse into the Down Siding and thence to the turntable. The fireman would have operated the ground frame in this event.

 

My good friend from Melbourne @Sharky is building a model of Garsdale. He is a real live signalman so might have some further thoughts.

 

Apologies for the late response. It takes a while for messages to get down to us here in VIC.

 

It appears to have already been discussed at length but from my understanding the Down siding was mainly used as a holding road for Light engines, either heading back to Hellifield or Carlisle. 

It probably wouldn't be used for holding complete trains (at least not down trains) as it is not a signalled move.

As mentioned, being a signalman by trade I can definitely vouch for always wanting to use a signalled route for any moment where possible.

Even in this day and age of computer based interlocking, this is still safest way of moving trains as the interlocking will prevent you from, well, you!

 

Considering the adjacent boxes, Dent & Ais Gill, had the ability to hold Down Trains in dedicated Layby Sidings (both being signalled moves) it seems unlikely that the 'Down Siding' at Garsdale would've been used for holding Down Trains. At least not commonly.

 

So to not include it in the layout design you won't lose much operationally. You could always make it a dead end, getting rid of the down end points and just using it as a holding road for Pilot engines if the need arises. But as stated most of the 'pilot engine' working to Garsdale was gone by the 50s.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Sharky

[LNER4479]

Having revised the details a little (thanks to input from on here), been plodding on with 'Garsdale North'

 

I have a sort of triangular area to cover to provide support for the railway as well as allowing us to get at garden implements, as this is the closest point to the chapel side door to the outside world. The first support is in (the batten heading roughly towards the bottom centre of the picture, otherwise everything else is just roughly propped up in this view. The main object of the exercise here is to create a level piece of board (the half inch chipboard) which in turn provides the support for the viaduct. The curved piece of hardboard (actually two pieces screwed together) is my 3 foot radius template and is purely plonked in position here to give a rough indication of the need for the Hawes branch to curve round, behind the backscene as part of this area.

 

A serious outbreak of structural carpentry. You might just be able to see the bottom of the battens firmly anchored to the floor via 90deg brackets, rawl-plugged into the concrete floor. This railway is going nowhere anytime soon (all being well!)

 

Structure complete (for now) and the afore-mentioned piece of chipboard affixed in place. The crucial difference here is that the template has now been modified to reflect the altered size and position of the viaduct, as per previous discussions. Gone is the trailing crossover from the down loop / siding, allowing the viaduct to start approx. 1 foot earlier. I've 'pinched' a bit of that to enlarge the viaduct slightly so that it is now 3' 5" long, but still 8 arches. The key process going on here (not immediately obvious) is to measure the drop from the viaduct base to the chipboard so as to create the supports for the viaduct. This is not as straightforward as it sounds as this length of mainline needs to be on a falling gradient! The reason for that will become clear in a couple of pictures' time. The 'sweep' of the mainlines from the station area out onto the viaduct looks good from this viewpoint.

 

Here is one of said supports, a piece of 70mm stripwood fitted nice n square and central to the footprint of the central pier.

 

Now with newly cut trackbed piece in place. Temporarily fitted, for now.

 

Here I am at work with my favourite track alignment pin / versine* technique. The location of these pins is derived from the template piece and is intended to be a constant 6 foot radius curve. Once marked, there was then a final check and further slight adjustment, indicated by my pencil scribbles. Once THIS is done, then the board can be marked to final shape, indicated by the lines close to each edge; the final piece will be 90mm wide throughout, as slender as it can be whilst maintaining scale clearances.

(*the offset of each pin from those either side of it. This gives an inverse measurement of radius)

 

Meanwhile, this revised mock up is to do the all important clearance check at the far end before finally committing to all this. It all gets a bit complicated here with three different levels going on. The higher altitude of the Shap section should be fairly obvious; however, what needs to be squeezed between the two are the running lines immediately north of Carlisle (where the passenger and goods lines converge and the Caledonian and North British routes diverge). The trackbed of this has been roughly mocked up by the short piece of wood with the pencil on it - it should eventually be hidden by the southern portal of Moorcock tunnel, as marked. It's minimum clearance time in this area (75mm) and the reason why the Garsdale North curve needs to fall, a total of 25mm. The curve's roughly 9 feet long (2700mm) so that's a gradient of 1-in-100 or so - wouldn't you know it: the S&C's ruling grade!

Meanwhile, the short piece of ply jutting out is to show the extremity of the board where the Hawes branch will run, still behind the backscene. Ideally, I'd have liked this to be wider but I'm at the limit of intrusion on the domestic space!

 

Talking of domestic harmony, its brownie point time! The area underneath was promised as storage, to keep stuff as neat and tidy as possible so a shelf has duly been installed to double up the amount of space for junk (ouch!) valuable garden equipment.

 

And now, the fun part. The revised viaduct dimensions have been transposed onto some 3mm ply which has been duly set about with the jig saw. A couple of points here - it is set out on the falling 1-in-100 gradient. Also, the two pieces are not to the same dimensions, as the rear piece has to be longer than the front on account of the curve, to keep the piers tangential. Lots of hard sums and double checking required at this point.

 

And now in position, albeit temporarily so far as the rear piece is concerned. Access is still required in between to get the intermediate pier supports in. The 4MT is obviously champing at the bit to try it out.

 

And now, we can see something of the revised effect, albeit with rear viaduct side piece removed for now. A little better I think. If the piers appear almost too slender then panicketh not - I've cut them 1mm undersize each side to allow for the thickness of stonework covering (almost certainly the good 'ol Wills sheets). Also, they're longer than they'll eventually appear as the idea is to built up the ground cover around their base with polystyrene sheet affixed direct to the chipboard in this area.

 

And a slightly more dramatic view to finish with for now.

 

Next time - an access door is desired into this area!

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

I've made a door!

 

Here is a kitchen base unit from a well-known, other brands available, DIY store. However, the 'cunning' part is on the bottom (left hand side as viewed), where 3 decent sized wheels have been attached, positioned so they are tangential to the edge where the 'gate' hinges are. Very satisfyingly, once upright, the thing traced the correct arc without any other interference.

 

And in position. Even more outward facing storage space to satisfy the critical eye of the domestic authorities.

 

Ta-daa!! Said domestic authorities did have some trouble supressing the urge to say 'I'm impressed!'!

 

And now with the beginnings of the railway atop. The idea was to have the Hawes road bridge more or less bang centre of the door as shown but, having now mocked up the tunnel mouth, I think I'll cantilever out on the LHS and make this all one continuous piece so that the left hand break is beyond the tunnel. That'll give a gap of three feet, albeit tapering a little towards the camera to take account of the arc of the door as it swings open.

 

View from outside shows the nice sweep of the continuous six foot radius curve.

 

And opened slightly, to show the idea. The newly provided storage space is being put to good use for storing ... er ... mud! Takes all sorts ...

 

Meanwhile, work has continued on the viaduct. Here, the intermediate supporting pieces of 6mm ply have been pinned and glued in place, prior to the inner side piece being permanently affixed.

 

And here we are, as of last night. The screws will be removed, and countersunk one at a time to get them fully flush. No reason why I can lay some track over this now...

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by LNER4479

[lezz01]

That's quite an elegant solution your "door/swinging cupboard"- whatever you want to call it thingy. 

Very nice mate.

Regards Lez.  

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Rather impressive, I'd have met myself coming back more than once trying sort that lot out!

 

Mike.

[LNER4479]

Thanks, guys.

 

I certainly can't take credit for the idea - the idea was shamelessly 'nicked' from an article in Oct 2017 RM called 'the gate'.

 

Also with one eye firmly on the future to prevent cursing the requirement to 'duck under' when I'm in my dotage!

[drmditch]

Excellent to see such rapid progress. As you know, I too have attempted to design for a possibly less physically flexible future.

This is described on my (very inadequate compared to yours) thread .... here...

 

My swinging bridge relies on solid abutments screwed to a concrete floor and three heavy-duty stainless steel hinges. It has been in place now for over three years (such is my speed of construction). It continues to work and stay stable. Since I am not an engineer, I tend to over-engineer everything!

 

Please may ask about your design. Does yours rely on a level floor and castors?

(I rejected that solution as being more subject to potential wear.)

 

If you will excuse a further interruption to your thread, I have also attached an old picture of my cross-room lift-out viaduct. This was also taken some three years ago, and it's fitting-out with such things as track and electrical supply has had to wait for other work to be done. You will see the 'raised cutout' to give more room. You will also note the totally unprototypical width of the piers. I do have a cunning plan to correct these - but since they form structurally an 8' span girder I am reluctant to weaken them too much. There is also a cunning plan, should age an infirmity demand, to give the viaduct a counter-weighted hoist!

 

I have also taken care to avoid sharp corners which my hips and legs might come into contact with.

 

Sorry not to have more impressive trains to show at the moment. Most of my stock is still packed away, and my A8 that I have been using to track testing with a local train has just succumbed  to a second failure of it's Comet gearbox. Very annoying. A High-Level box is about to be ordered.

 

'When all this is over', you will be very welcome to travel down the line for seven miles and witness my slow progress.

(Do you like the conceit of having a Bridge Cabin on the Bridge?)

 

Edited June 27, 2020 by drmditch
Viaduct length stated incorrectly

[Flying Fox 34F]

Going back a few weeks to the discussion on Garsdale Signalling!  
 

This morning I was browsing through the latest copy of Rail and enjoying the article about the Leeds area Signalling.  Then, I got to page 75.  Hey presto, a recent photo of a Class 66 approaching Garsdale from the north with 5 signals visible, of which 3 are Ground Signals, Dollies! 

The photo has confirmed that 32 ground signal protects both the main to main crossover and entry to the Up Sidings, but it is only cleared for movements into the Sidings not over the crossover to the Down Main.  There is a black arrow on a white plate below the ground signal indicating to the right.  The style of the arrow implies it is a sign of considerable age, as are all the ground signals. 
 

The Garsdale Signalman must still have to verbally authorise movements from the Up to the Down.

 

Paul

[LNER4479]

Thanks for recent posts in response to latest progress. Plodding on ...

 

The start of fascia work and the scenery shell around the viaduct.

 

And simultaneously tracklaying on to the viaduct, using my time-honoured method of laying up against the previously positioned track alignment pins. Foam underlay equally time-honoured - life's too short! I'll say it before you do - whilst the drinking liquid in the larger tankard is innocuous enough, that in the whisky tumbler is the real McCoy, Tobermory single malt from the Isle of Mull. I was celebrating my daughter being awarded her uni degree (remotely determined based on course work as a sign of these strange times we live in) - the track pins at least meant that the track didn't end up all wonky.

 

Now with all scenery structure supports in place, at least for this side of the viaduct. The area immediately around the viaduct piers will be filled in with polystyrene blocks - the land is pretty flat just in this area (a glacial dry valley).

 

And now with tracks fully laid up to the separation point of the 'door'. Yay!

 

No electrons have flowed yet, so our 2-6-4T plus 3-coach set is just positioned for now. This lower down viewpoint is quite a popular one for photographers, accessed from the adjacent A684 road. I think it gives a good first impression of the viaduct within its setting.

 

Not resting for one moment on our laurels, thoughts now turn to the other side of the 'door', where it all starts to get very interesting in terms of levels. You can see from here also that the trackbed over the 'door' has also had some scenery structure applied to it.

 

The structure in the other side has now been determined to be yet more cupboard space (aka brownie points), to where all our variously scattered tins of paint will henceforth congregate. I 'found' a large piece of faced 15mm plywood in another part of the chapel so this is the basis of the cupboard shell, suitably rawl-plugged to the floor. Boy, is this solid - but it needs to be. There are five different sets of running lines here, all climbing over each other, with clearances limited so this all need to be quite precise. As a reminder, the crop of the master plan (below) shows what I'm talking about - the red outline is the approximate footprint of the new cupboard. Much fun to be had!

 

 

[Killybegs]

If that's plodding on, I look forward to see what happens when you really start motoring!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

How do you cut your ply road bed into such nice neat curves... I need to do something similar

 

 

Just a mockup to test out various elements before committing saw to wood

 

 

[Adrock]

I absolutely love this - it’s great to see each piece develop and the way you anchor it all back to the master plan. Fast progress too...although you’ve had some practice of layout building under time pressure!!

 

Could I please just ask what type of RTR track you are using? Now that the Peco bullhead is available have you switched to that, or has the need to use the matching PECO foam underlay precluded it?

The other thing I find fascinating is how you build up the baseboards in these system-type layouts. I keep thinking that I want to start with building nice perfect boards first, whereas you seem to be building each one up with all sorts of different types of wood and supports at different angles. Is this all planned too?

 

Thanks. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Adrock

[drmditch]

Will the foam underlay have an appropriate life span?

[Tom F]

I've been watching from the sidelines, but it's great to see how the 'last great project' is coming along.

 

Hope you and Jill are well.

 

All the best.

[LNER4479]

9 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

How do you cut your ply road bed into such nice neat curves... I need to do something similar

 

 

Hi Dr G-F! Does the following picture give you a clue?

 

This was during the construction of Shap Wells. The key thing to point out here are the alignment pins (you can see the two bottom left most clearly numbered '14' and '15'. The piece of trackbed wood was cut over-wide initially, based on a 'first pass' at the alignment then the pins have been precisely positioned by measuring the offset of one from the two adjacent (technical term - versine, a measure of curvature rather than radius) to give the final adjustment. With 'correct' 45mm track centre spacings, I calculate that the overall width of the trackbed is 120mm (to allow for ballast shoulder and cess) which then gives the two final cut lines that the jigsaw is carefully following. As we're on an embankment here, the jigsaw is on its 45 deg. setting. For a viaduct or raised trackbed with a retaining wall (as per your example), then it's a simple straight cut.

 

So the key thing is to accurate determine the alignment of the track first then cut to suit - rather than the other way round ...

 

[LNER4479]

On 26/07/2020 at 08:42, Adrock said:

I absolutely love this - it’s great to see each piece develop and the way you anchor it all back to the master plan. Fast progress too...although you’ve had some practice of layout building under time pressure!!

 

Could I please just ask what type of RTR track you are using? Now that the Peco bullhead is available have you switched to that, or is the need to use the matching PECO foam underlay precluded it?

The other thing I find fascinating is how you build up the baseboards in these system-type layouts. I keep thinking that I want to start with building nice perfect boards first, whereas you seem to be building each one up with all sorts of different types of wood and supports at different angles. Is this all planned too?

 

Thanks. 

Hi there,

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

Track on the scenic sections is Code 75 (mainly Code 100 in the non-scenic areas). The new Peco bullhead track is very nice BUT by the 1950s, mainly of the more premier mainlines had already been re-laid (or were being re-laid) with flat bottom track and this applies to both the Shap and Settle-Carlisle routes. Where I shall be using the bullhead is for sidings and other secondary bits of running line. So in the Garsdale station area, the Hawes branch platform and the Hawes branchline itself will be bullhead - which means I'll have to save my pennies for one of the new double slips as there was one at the south end. Yes, I know that the sleeper spacing is not right on the standard Code 75 / Code 100; that's another 'life's too short' one again. One positive side effect however is this accentuates the contrast between the main running lines and adjacent sidings.

 

Wood for baseboards? It might appear to be a bit of a mish-mash and in some respects it is; however, there is 'method in the madness'. I have quite a supply of second-hand, 'recycled' wood so, where it is good enough, I'm using this for what I might loosely term the foundations of the layout, generally the bottom layer that won't ultimately be seen but requires to be a true n square n level structure. Thereafter, all trackbed pieces on the scenic areas is 9mm ply, without exception, easily my most favoured and preferred material for layout construction.

 

Is it planned? Not really! This is all about elephant eating so as I come to each part I sit (or stand) and stare at it with the trackplan in hand and gradually work out what I consider to be the best / most pragmatic solution to that particular bit. Sometimes that requires sleeping on it. It's constantly being adjusted and refined in my mind. The advantage of this being a home layout is that I don't have to skimp on weight AND I have the relative luxury of being able to rawl-plug stuff to the floor and screw into the walls with gay abandon. So I'm going slightly larger with everything at this stage so that I have firm and level foundations to build up from. The spirit level is never far from reach. Some maths is required to get the gradients right so that we don't have a 'foul' where two levels cross (75mm height difference is the 'rule of thumb') and so far it's working out OK in terms of achieving that AND the gradients being practical for large trains, aiming for no worse than 1 in 100. That bit, at least, is planned!

Edited July 27, 2020 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

Will the foam underlay have an appropriate life span?

12-15 years in my experience. I have a theory that spraying it first (light grey) provides some protection from the UV light that causes the deterioration. So, I might have to replace it once during the layout's lifetime? - for me, not a reason not to use the stuff.

[LNER4479]

Folks - we have a wagon shortage. About 300 of them by my reckoning! Yikes ...

 

So, in the background, there needs to be some shoulder to the wheel in this respect.

 

I'm happy to build some of them from kits - but not all of them. There's no way I'll ever do that AND get the layout built. Here, therefore, is an eclectic selection of kits already in stock, together with the results of a recent raid on the Hattons 'pre-owned' section. Overwhelmingly, I need vans and opens ...

 

Remember when Parkside wagon kits looked like this? With a price to match? I did acquire quite a few at the time (ie about 30+ years ago) and have made most up since. I think I might keep this one in its packing for old times sake!

 

Here's the content of the one in the opening picture, complete with flash and plastic wheels (the latter consigned to the little round, grey filing cabinet in the corner of the room).

 

But with a little bit of work ...

 

And here's what they look like these days. Come on a bit haven't they? (apologies to any readers who have made up far more of these than me as I'm sure you don't need reminding what the inside of a Parkside wagon kit looks like)

 

A modest amount of barely-visible-once-on-the-layout under-gubbins. This of course is the more complex 8-block clasp braking arrangement, unlike the open which is just the 4-block Morton 'pusher' arrangement.

 

Few more details to finish off (the open need the stretcher bar between the axleboxes to resist the afore-mentioned 'pusher' action.

 

But the sadist in me was itching to have a go at this: ex-Jidenco and now (as I understand it) ex-Falcon Brassworks GNR fish van. Originally purchased with Grantham in mind - then I met Mr Wealleans of this parish! But, hey, why not? It can always masquerade as an ancient pre-grouping wagon, lurking in a dark corner of the Carlisle scheme.

 

Took a bit of time, but I'm not displeased with how the end detail worked out. The end stanchions I tapered from a handy piece of square bar I had to hand, then all the rest of the rivet strips are soldered on (see I told you I was sad-ish).

 

And if you thought that was bad, then I really went OTT with the doors! Of an unusual double parting arrangement (compared to the more common single, larger type), I figured they needed two runner wheels each which I made up by sacrificing two of the supplied rivet strips.

 

I even cut a 'ole in each side, not so much for realism but more so I could get 'in' at the back with the iron to affix them in place.

 

Ta daa! Although my elation was cut short once I was shown a picture of what they should REALLY look like (true to form, there was only the sketchyist of drawings provided in the kit). Ah well, I like it and it was fun to do!

 

(300 wagons over - say - six years is 50 a year so one a week ... Crikey, must keep motoring)

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by LNER4479

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

On 26/07/2020 at 12:02, LNER4479 said:

12-15 years in my experience. I have a theory that spraying it first (light grey) provides some protection from the UV light that causes the deterioration. So, I might have to replace it once during the layout's lifetime? - for me, not a reason not to use the stuff.

 

Can you still get it?  I thought it had been discontinued....

 

I use Woodlands Scenics track bed which is very nice to use, although it doesn't squidge around the sleepers to give that well-groomed full ballasted look.

[LNER4479]

Plain rolls are still available but not the point inserts  - or at least that was the case last time I looked.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

plastic wheels (the latter consigned to the little round, grey filing cabinet in the corner of the room).

I usually keep those. I sometimes buy cheap wagons from bring-and-buy stalls at exhibitions, not because I want the wagons but because they have decent wheels. I swap the wheels for some redundant plastic ones then flog 'em at the next show...

 

Don't forget I lived in both Scotland and Yorkshire over the years.