Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[jamie92208]

I used the King noard system with self locking legs, as above on Grren Ayre and each hoard is numbered on the operators side. The King boards have a K added. These build up to 6 units that are then joined together. The final 3 boards to be added, that join itvall together have no legs and have got known as Queen boards.

 

The layout does seem to be coming along well Graham and I always look forward to new instalments.

 

Jamie

[LNER4479]

4 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I do wonder where you do the cutting of the wood into the quite elaborate shapes seen in the pictures above? Your room doesn't appear to be deep in sawdust, so is there another work area, or are you just a wizz with the Hoover? I've always found this a problem as wood dust seems to get everywhere and make a real mess, hence the question.

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

Does this answer your question?

 

No special secret - pretty much Hoover up (other brands are available) as you go along ... well, once a week ... maybe ...

 

Plain handsawing isn't so bad; it's the jigsaw that creates the dust cloud. You can shove the Hoover nozzle end adapter thingy on but it's a bit of a faff.

 

If I'm honest, there's a fair layer of dust all over the nearby bit of layout at the moment so will need a good Hoover up before we run any trains. A job high on the 'to do' list is to get a piece of 9mm on top of this area (which will one day be the board for the Canal area but for now will just protect things)

[John Tomlinson]

Yes, that does explain it, thanks for the response and picture.

 

As you say, it seems to be the jigsaw that really makes a mess, in building my own  - much smaller layout - we used to try to use this outside, but its a bit of a nuisance keep fetching and carrying the work.

 

John.

[Tortuga]

Thanks @LNER4479 for the comprehensive reply! I did scrutinise those photos at the start of the thread, but the extra detail you’ve provided makes it crystal clear!

 

If you’ll indulge me once more, what timber did you use for the folding legs and what have you used for the permanent supporting framework on the rest of Hills of the North?

[LNER4479]

 

On 21/09/2020 at 07:15, Tortuga said:

 

If you’ll indulge me once more, what timber did you use for the folding legs and what have you used for the permanent supporting framework on the rest of Hills of the North?

Legs are 3" x 1" planed timber (18mm x 70mm as it is actually sold by a well-known orange DIY store). Not only slightly sturdier than 2" x 1", but also gives you a bit more width to attach the hinges for the folding action.

 

For the permanent framework ... er ... well I'm actually making use of some recycled timber that has accumulated in the chapel so it's actually a right ol' mixture of all sorts, I'm afraid! All I'll say it that it is sturdy and well braced (I can drill into and rawl plug the concrete floor, which I appreciate not everyone can necessarily do). Whenever I do buy some new timber for the purpose, it will be the 3" x 1" stuff again. In fact, as you're about to find out, just been using some of that for the most recent piece of work ...

[LNER4479]

Work is pretty continuous in the chapel at the moment so it's case of knowing when to pause and provide an update. Progress on two fronts to report:

 

Track refurbishment continuing at Central station. Here's the next section dug up, on from the first bit of relaying (top right) ...

 

... and duly corked, painted and replaced. This included reattaching the various drive arms (most work as crossovers, powered by one point motor, with mechanical linkage to its partner point. If you look carefully, you'll notice the little bits of steel wire, which had to be bent out of the way to remove the points and bent back again once the point was reinstated. With the point motor supply all powered up, it was quite easy to test and adjust each one so I know they're all working again. Quite a relief!

 

 

At the 'country' end, some baseboard alteration work shown here in progress. It used to end where the tired old bits of foam can be seen, towards the bottom left. I've added 6 inches to reposition the final point (nearest the camera) at its 'correct' 10 foot spacing from the running lines - this is the station headshunt and will head off into some carriage sidings. Over on the far side, extra width has been added to accommodate the additional running lines required for the Maryport & Carlisle route trains (see further a couple of pics further on), with the goods yard headshunt as the farthest over to the left. Meanwhile, on the right hand side, the afore-mentioned alterations to the station headshunt king point means that the loco yard need to be pushed out to the right and there is room to add a further stabling road in as well which will comfortably take three Duchesses(!). Very important, that.

 

With this timber work more or less complete, the remaining points from the old station throat have come up, revealing several 'oles where point motors have been mounted directly beneath. This was on account of this previously being a hidden section so it didn't matter so much visually. I created myself a bit of a problem as the point motors had to be separated from the points to remove the latter for spraying, leaving the wires all in place beneath. One of the 'oles I've been able to fill in due to the different configuration, which helps a bit.

 

More evidence of the parlous state of the foam as the first 3-way point comes up.

 

And skipping on a little, here is the modified and more expansive station throat which now takes on the form of a double junction at its heart, which I at least find visually satisfying. If you look VERY carefully, you might just be able to see some dark grey card inserts which are sandwiched between the point and the point motor directly beneath, thus covering up the afore-mentioned 'oles. From left to right, we now have:

- Good yard headshunt

- Maryport & Carlisle arrival and departure lines. These actually head for the goods yard and platform 1 respectively and plat.1 will actually be the only platform M&C passenger trains will be able to access. But that's OK, as it was only local trains - maybe even DMUs, in fact (did I just say that?!)

- All the rest' main arrival and departure lines, as always was

- Station headshunt, with access to the loco yard

 

I like slip points! And so much more prototypical for a steam age, large station throat.

 

Meanwhile ...

 

This last few days, I've been concentrating on the running lines to link the rest of the layout to Central station, as featured in the last progress posting. It's now a case of turning the mock ups into permanent structures. This is the first, a piece of good quality 12mm ply that was lying around. It's supported by 3" x 1" legs, spaced 2 feet apart for sturdy-ness.

 

Did I say permanent? Well yes and no. These will be the finished structures but - for now - they will be capable of being removed for reasons previously explained.

 

And now the next section, this time from all-new wood, my favoured 9mm ply. This is just shy of 5 feet long, so has a bracing piece underneath to create a T beam, similar to the construction of Shap bank. It has an end piece of 9mm ply this near (left-hand) end, which rests on the ledge of the previous piece and its own set of legs at the far end.

 

Theme and variations. Apologies for poor quality of photo, but this shows the beam arrangement which uses a piece of 6mm ply (4" deep) and a 1.5" x 1" batten (18mm by 34mm) to fit it all in place. On Shap it was a piece of 9mm ply which I drilled and screwed straight down in to. Although one extra piece of wood, this is simpler to construct. Without the 6mm ply, the baseboard will deflect under moderate downward pressure and, over time, would no doubt develop a sag; with the 6mm ply added, it is rock solid.

 

And this is where I am up to as of last night. What might not have previously been apparent is the grade separation which you can see going on here. The right hand board is descending slightly (dropped 8mm in 5 feet, so about 1-in-180) whereas the left hand one is rising (15mm in 5 feet, so about 1-in-100). The right hand one is the one I'm principally interested in right now as that is the one that will link to Central station. The left hand one is the rising curved approach to Carlisle from the S&C / Newcastle direction (trying not to get too distracted by that at the moment!) and, as you can see, it is just starting its curve at this near end. This will be the moment at which it comes 'on view'; these two boards with otherwise be hidden under Riccarton(!) village in the full scheme of things.

 

More when there is further stuff to show.

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by LNER4479

[John Tomlinson]

That's some very fine and sturdy work.

 

A long, long time ago I was taught both at school and by my Dad ( who'd served his time as a joiner), that you never screw into end grain. Something you've obviously followed as well, unlike many constructions that one sees.

 

John.

[LNER4479]

Thanks - and yes, indeed. Avoid screwing into end grain unless absolutely necessary or not a particularly critical joint.

 

I always drill a pilot hole for any screwed joint. They may be self-tapping screws these days but the wood so displaced has got to go somewhere. I've got quite good a screwing down into 9mm ply (eg the ends of the boards in the last photo) but only with a pilot hole before hand - almost never splits.

 

Like you (by the sound of it), I used to enjoy Wednesday afternoon practical sessions in the school woodwork shop (and metalwork shop). I guess it's one of those things schools don't have these days ...

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

When I do woodwork I can hear my dad, my uncle Joe and my woodwork teacher Mr Youngs.

 

I mostly hear them sighing as I commit another terrible bodge up. 

 

But I always drill a pilot hole, and sometimes it's even in the right place!

[stewartingram]

I agree with the no-screwing into end grain, as I was taught it in woodworking at school. A subject I could not get on with; I much preferred metalwork!

One thing I did learn much later in life was from MFI (remember them?) Chipboard panels, screwed together (sometimes with real screws, not their own personalised fittings). I remember coming across some that went into the end of (chipboard) shelves - they supplied rawplugs (and a pre-drilled hole). Nowadays if I really have to go into end-of-grain, I fit Rawplugs - but those pre-drilled holes are never in stock in B&Q! Trust me, it works!

 

Stewart

[St Enodoc]

2x1 and 1/2 inch chipboard! Those were the days. Your scraper looks as though it has scraped many a mile too. Great stuff.

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I've got quite good a screwing down into 9mm ply

I've done that with the fascia boards but I don't think I'd do it for anything that had to bear a load.

[Adrock]

Station throat looks very realistic, even more amazing based on the fact that you’ve used (only?) proprietary points? It is correct to say that you paint the track and then it fix down, so that the painted tracks are the ones that are “done” and the rest is still to be done? 

[LNER4479]

Yep, 100% proprietary (Peco) points. Some minor trimming and bending to make it all fit but otherwise ... well, there you go! Unless you're tackling something like the diamond crossings junction that used to exist at the north end of Newcastle then I reckon most station throats can be assembled out of proprietary (Peco) points.

 

Yes (also) - those painted are back down for keeps - rest yet to be done. Also some point motor messing about required on account of additional / altered points, which I'm forcing myself to do before tackling the next set of points.

 

I also need to reinstate some wires, hook it up to a controller and see if it all works!

Edited October 14, 2020 by LNER4479

[92220]

On 24/09/2020 at 15:26, LNER4479 said:

  a further stabling road in as well which will comfortably take three Duchesses(!). Very important, that.

 

 

 

I’ve realised that there are few things in life more important than places to take three (or more) Duchesses!

 

Great to see your progress, Graham. Hope to catch up soon.

 

best wishes,

 

Iain

[Barry Ten]

May I ask if you do any additional modifications to the Peco 3-way points beyond the switching covered in the instructions? There still seems to be an element of relying on point-blade contact in the one I've installed.

[richard.h]

2 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

May I ask if you do any additional modifications to the Peco 3-way points beyond the switching covered in the instructions? There still seems to be an element of relying on point-blade contact in the one I've installed.

Just to add my own bit of info here I have a Peco Code 75 three way point in my Loco Depot where I need reliable slow speed running.

I found that I couldn't get this with the standard point installation so I used the contacts on the Tortoise point motors to switch power to  the blades as required and this greatly improved performance.

[LNER4479]

The three-ways on Central station are actually Code 100 items (with adaptor fishplates for adjacent Code 75 track) as the Code 75 item (which - technically - is a tandem rather than three-way!) wasn't available at the time.

 

It's so long ago(!) that I can't fully remember: I think there is some frog switching involved but also some reliance on point blade contact.

 

If I'm brutally honest, it's a glorified fiddle yard which needs to pump trains out as quickly as possible, so scale speed running and prolonged shunting moves isn't really going to be the order of the day. Plus, the 3-ways are directly in front of the operating position, so a quick 'prod' to keep things moving if required will be the more likely modus operandi. Out on the main scenic part of the layout, or where pointwork is a bit more remote and / or in accessible in normal operation, different matter and full frog switching is more likely to be deployed. There is quite a prominent 3-way tandem point in the south end of Carlisle station throat so that will probably need doing 'properly' to facilitate more prototypical 'hands off' operation.

 

With so much to do, it's a case of prioritising the effort where it will have maximum benefit.

[Theakerr]

On 24/09/2020 at 11:22, John Tomlinson said:

That's some very fine and sturdy work.

 

A long, long time ago I was taught both at school and by my Dad ( who'd served his time as a joiner), that you never screw into end grain. Something you've obviously followed as well, unlike many constructions that one sees.

 

John.

Our woodwork Master did not allow screws regardless of grain.  Everything had to be jointed and glued - horse/animal glue at that and it smelt

[LNER4479]

OK - here's another update.

 

Been enjoying turning the previous mock-ups into more permanent structures. With cork down here is the first piece of track going down on the first extension board. This double junction will be off scene but is the point at which the incoming S&C / Newcastle lines split between the passenger trains heading for the station and goods traffic using the avoiding lines.

 

Looking the other way, the double track formation heading away from the camera are the afore-mentioned goods avoiding lines ... but, if you've been following the story, are also used as the running lines to and from Central station. In the distance, mocked up on temporary boards, is the layout of the delightfully named Bog Junction (Carlisle No.10 box).

 

Viewed from the extremity of Central station, this shows the view looking back from where we came from and thus showing the full run from Central to the rest of the layout.

 

Now, the eagle-eyed might have noticed a little further progress in the area of Bog Junction. It has been over two weeks, after all ...

 

Ta-daa! Well, sort of. All of this is still in mock-up form (including a few ex-Gowhole signals to give an idea. What has been accomplished is two further boards constructed (but removeable if required for the time-being) and cork down and painted, ready for tracklaying. Approx half way between the earlier, off-stage junction and here, this becomes a scenic section of the layout so this needs modelling 'properly' so track will require spraying before laying, etc.

 

One thing not immediately apparent from this view, is the slight curve in the tracks approaching the junction on the lines we've been looking at. This is quite noticeable on pictures and diagrams when you start looking so part of the last two weeks have been researching, pondering, trying things, coming back to it in the morning - ever mindful of the interplay with the rest of the layout (ie trying not to create a problem down the line).

 

The lines on the right, nearer the signalbox, are the connections from Upperby, ie the route of the through goods traffic from the West Coast mainline.

 

Looking the other way, showing more clearly the mock-ups of the bridges in this area. The Patriot (renumbered to long-time Carlisle resident No.45549 (un-named) since Shap's last outing) is on the West Coast passenger lines heading towards the station, with the Maryport & Carlisle lines behind, peeling away to the west.

 

This view perhaps shows what goes on here a bit more clearly. Although there will be express passenger trains running through here, it is designed to look and operate like the real Bog Junction. Importantly, the double junction is configured correctly so, when this is all complete, it should photograph well with goods trains posed in position.

 

Beyond, lies the configuration of plain crossings where the two sets of running lines cross over each other. In doing so, they replicate aspects of the layout of the nearby Rome Street Junction (Carlisle No.11 box), in the sense that the alignment here was prioritised for the West Coast traffic heading towards the through lines at Dentonholme. The yellow area where the lines cross is a template I've made of two six foot radius double track formations, set at 12 degrees to each other (the Peco crossing angle), as I know I can curve the long crossings to that radius without difficulty. Beyond the crossing, the tracks towards Dentonholme will then transition to a somewhat sharper curve to avoid encroaching too much into the Central operating area.

 

So the West Coast traffic effectively has a straight run through here; traffic off the S&C / Newcastle, has to negotiate the double junction crossover to get into Dentonholme - but that's OK.

 

And then the single track link off to the left? Well that is sort of prototypical as this is where the M&C goods lines join in to create a west-to-east link - there was regular traffic both ways using this link, coal from Newcastle to the Cumbrian coast industries and iron ore from Cumbria to the North East steel industry. So this will allow us to depict this traffic, as the M&C lines otherwise just head for Carlisle station. It should be a double junction but I think that would be too crowded - a trailing crossover will be installed the other side of the junction, behind the camera. Not made my mind up about local goods traffic - there was a Bog Goods yard on the west side of the station but I'm not sure whether I can fit that in. If not, it'll have to go round the corner into Upperby!

 

The co-acting junction signal? Well, students of the ex-Midland Railway lines of south-east Manchester might recognise it as the distinctive signal at New Mills South Junction in the Manchester-bound direction. It sort of fits in this location, I'm never going to use it for anything else, it'll be one less signal to build, it works(!) so - what the h3ll! 

 

The other 'big' decision made in thinking all this through and mapping it out is that this will become one of the critical operating positions for the layout. It's only when you see it for real and can place yourself in position that it 'clicks' in to place. I've worked out that there are eight - eight! - adjacent operating positions / routes that this location needs to communicate with to run the layout so there's no way it could be somehow automated. So this will be a proper signalbox, mechanically operated and interlocked. Not sure if there'll be eight sets of block bells - not really worked that one through yet!

 

And it'll be operated from this side. It was when I sat myself here that it fell into place. This panoramic photo should give some idea. From this viewpoint, over 75% of the layout can be viewed. To the left is Central station so a clear view of trains coming from there (and Dentonholme once it's constructed). To the right are the running lines heading off towards 'Grand Junction' (which can be controlled from here, with indicator lights) and the rest of the layout. The panorama didn't quite stretch to there but in the distance you can see there is a clear view of the Shap Wells section. That might end up being partly obscured by the hills around Riccarton Junction in the fullness of time, but we'll see.

 

For now, I'll leave you with possibly the pick of the shots from this evening's shoot.

 

Who would have thought a junction named after a bog could be so interesting?(!)

Edited October 13, 2020 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

What an excellent post Graham. It makes my mouth water for what's to come.

 

24 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

One thing not immediately apparent from this view, is the slight curve in the tracks approaching the junction on the lines we've been looking at. This is quite noticeable on pictures and diagrams when you start looking so part of the last two weeks have been researching, pondering, trying things, coming back to it in the morning - ever mindful of the interplay with the rest of the layout (ie trying not to create a problem down the line).

That's interesting. My viaduct is on a 40ft radius curve, which on paper looks almost straight but when you look along the track, and see how it blends into another 40ft radius curve the other way as it crosses the lifting flap, it's anything but!

 

Couldn't agree more about sleeping on things. It's amazing how the brain processes stuff when you're asleep and in the morning everything suddenly makes sense.

 

27 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

The other 'big' decision made in thinking all this through and mapping it out is that this will become one of the critical operating positions for the layout. It's only when you see it for real and can place yourself in position that it 'clicks' in to place. I've worked out that there are eight - eight! - adjacent operating positions that this location needs to communicate with to run the layout so there's no way it could be somehow automated. So this will be a proper signalbox, mechanically operated and interlocked. Not sure if there'll be eight sets of block bells - not really worked that one through yet!

My sort of train set, as you know. Personally I don't use bells as it doesn't make sense to me to hear those outside your "own" signal box (I don't use DCC sound for that reason, among others, either). Instead, I use a system of lights and switches to simulate block working - including Line Clear releases on the section signals. I've also got in my head a sort of "First-come-first-served Tokenless Block" for the future single-line sections.

 

As always, looking forward to the next instalment.

 

All the best.

[Michael Edge]

This is all starting to look very familiar to me.....

[Barry O]

The bells, the bells Esmerelda.. they never stop ringing!!!

 

Baz

[LNER4479]

14 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

What an excellent post Graham. It makes my mouth water for what's to come.

 

Thanks for that - it took me about two hours to put together, albeit sat in front of the tele with the laptop propped in front of me. So no actual modelling done last night but it's actually quite useful to document it all as that in itself makes you think about things a little.

 

7 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

This is all starting to look very familiar to me.....

An opportune moment to thank you for giving me access to your Carlisle research files. Photos like this are invaluable:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/40060076700/in/photostream/

 

[coronach]

Great to see your progress Graham. How many operators will you need to be able to play trains?

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by coronach
Spelled your name wrong Doh!