Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[sjp23480]

On 10/04/2020 at 12:44, Michael Edge said:

I've got quite a few photos of the canopy but I would leave it off - it went after passenger services to Northallerton were withdrawn in 1954. 

 

LNER4479

 

https://www.brunelmodels.co.uk/?attachment_id=1599

 

Brunel Models in Nottingham built a Gauge 3 model of Garsdale station. They have some pictures in their gallery. I assume their customer has a significant amount of (outside?) space to be able to recreate the scene in this scale!

 

I have contacted them about sharing any plans/diagramed they might of prepared to create this model, but they were not prepared to release them which is understandable under the circumstances. 

 

Great thread BTW - will continue to watch with interest.

 

Steve

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

The two single slips to produce a crossover was a regular feature as well.

 

 

Very common feature of steam era track layouts generally Jamie - we have three of them on Grantham alone, one for each of the three signal boxes!

[LNER4479]

Some fascinating photos of Garsdale and the Wensleydale trains prior to closure at this link:

https://photos.wr-rail-link.co.uk/old/beeken.php?id=1588887040

 

[Chris M]

Looking at rail track plans and trying to understand why is so interesting. The arrangement at Garsdale for getting from the branch line to the engine shed appears to be somewhat inconvenient and the turntable is as far away from the engine shed as possible. Were the loco facilities primarily for the branch? Would the turntable have been there mainly to turn pilots on the main line so they could return home smokebox first? It might explain why the two were so far away from each other.

[Barry O]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Some fascinating photos of Garsdale and the Wensleydale trains prior to closure at this link:

https://photos.wr-rail-link.co.uk/old/beeken.php?id=1588887040

 

J21..check

Coaches..check

 

Could knock out a typical train..shame the branch went in the early 1950s..

 

Baz

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

Looking at rail track plans and trying to understand why is so interesting. The arrangement at Garsdale for getting from the branch line to the engine shed appears to be somewhat inconvenient and the turntable is as far away from the engine shed as possible. Were the loco facilities primarily for the branch? Would the turntable have been there mainly to turn pilots on the main line so they could return home smokebox first? It might explain why the two were so far away from each other.

Yes the turntable was mainly for pilot locos from both directions.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Quote

 

 

I don't recall mention of a through train to Hawes. There is no point lock shown which would usually be needed for such a move. But at Sidmouth Jct such occasional moves were achieved by clipping and padlocking. Might it all have been changed when the LNER started providing the branch passenger service?

I have never thought of that down siding as being for recessing goods trains but just for lining up banking locomotives to be sent back down the line.

While we are on the subject of siding lengths, I do wonder if the up sidings are not too short but I can't see any sensible answer. Just not enough space unless you pursue your idea of two versions (one for home, one for shows) where the home version does not have the viaduct at all.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

So glad you brought that up! I love talking track layouts.

 

Below is the track layout / signalling diagram (courtesy of Mike Edge, I think?).

Traditional railways were generally averse to facing points and the Midland Railway especially so. Famously, the S&C only had one facing point within its 72 miles up until WWII (at Appleby, part of the connection to the adjacent NER route), hence none at Garsdale. The diagram in fact refers to what I've hitherto described as the 'down loop' as the 'down siding' and, with all the other sidings, can only be accessed by a reversing (propelling) move off the mainline. Even more interestingly, the north end crossover that has been the focus of comment does not appear to be operated directly from the 'box but looks to be ground frame operated, unlocked by No.40 lever. This presumably because it was too far from the box for a crossover (max allowable distance for a crossover was 185 yards, I believe). As a result, there are no signals to move into or out of the siding at that end.

 

So, unlikely though it might first seem, a train (or loco) on the down line would first have to reverse over to the up side (sig No.34) to get the road into the down siding. In fact, I'm not so sure that sig No.34 doesn't actually read into the branch platform road, from where there are two shunt signals (29 & 30), the top one of which (30) would read into the down siding. Pretty certain that the first half of this move (reversal from sig. 34) was how the through train to Hawes accessed the branch line.

(Any signalling experts out there like to 'read' the diagram for us?)

 

All of which(!) makes it somewhat unlikely that the 'down siding' was used to recess a down goods train. There were lie-bye sidings at Ais Gill, only three miles further on, that could be used for that. So, 'losing' the north end crossover perhaps not such a loss afterall?

 

Just looking at the diagram, Graham, and without any knowledge of how it was actually worked, I reckon that Down trains would be put inside using the Up Siding, via 5 and 3 crossovers. The "North End Crossover" might have been to let pilot locos reverse into the Down Siding and thence to the turntable. The fireman would have operated the ground frame in this event.

 

My good friend from Melbourne @Sharky is building a model of Garsdale. He is a real live signalman so might have some further thoughts.

[LNER4479]

Thanks for further comments. To pick up on some of them.

 

Garsdale did once have an engine shed - but it burnt down in the early part of the 20th century!

 

The turntable was used to turn and return pilot locos ... but little call for that by the post-war era. It was otherwise used to turn locos for the branch services (even tank engines - no driver wanted a long run facing backwards if he could avoid it)

 

Which brings us to the through train to Hawes! An institution, dating back to Midland days, variously originating from Hellifield, Skipton or Bradford and known by its unofficial title of the ‘Bonnyface’!

 

Upon arrival at Garsdale, it would draw forward then propel into branch platform. (I think - in theory could be also done at south end but would have been double reversal. There was a water column at that end and I have seen at least one photo of the Hawes bound train taking water there with its train sitting on the up main!)

Then - most fascinating of all - loco would detach and visit turntable (one move, straight across both running lines) and so work the train on to Hawes tender or bunker first (5 miles, all downhill). At Hawes would thus be right way round for the entire return journey. Always a (large) tank engine duty in 1950s, service finally withdrawn in 1959.

 

John - the up siding was the (very modest!) station goods yard! Only ever seen pictures of the odd coal wagon in there, presumably for local deliveries, possibly bagged by the station porter.

 

 The other sidings were for transfer traffic, to / from the branch and must have involved further interesting shunt moves within station limits! Branch passenger trains often conveyed goods wagons, either fitted or worked as mixed trains.

 

Fascinating stuff

[Michael Edge]

I don't think you will lose much by abolishing the down exit from what isn't a loop, just shorten it to a stub by the turntable.

[LNER4479]

A few more bits and bobs associated with the Garsdale track layout discussion. I do appreciate any comments, as it helps crystallise thoughts and sometimes fills in another piece of the jigsaw puzzle.

 

At risk of a prolonged discussion breaking out over THE infamous accident, the following diagram from the report (available via the railways archive website) is useful in relation to our discussion re the north end.

 

 

This confirms the now-to-be-omitted crossover as 'bolt-locked'. It also reveals the sheer number of pilot engines around that had assisted earlier trains and were waiting to be sent back to Carlisle or Hellifield - seven in total! It was Christmas Eve though so extra trains were running. The two locos involved had reversed from the turntable, across both mainlines into the branch platform before pulling forward to the position shown on the diagram. That in itself is interesting as an alternative might have simply been to run forward along the loop / siding before using the ground-frame crossover to access the down main - except that there were three locos standing in the way, possibly facing south and waiting their turn to be allowed out straight on to the up main? So in this instance, the siding / loop was in effect being used as a dead end siding anyway. Note that the diagram does in fact refer to it as a lie-by siding - it's certainly long enough. Of course, times change and it may have found use as a lie-by siding at this sort of time in its history. By the 1950s, it probably saw very little use - if any - in that role; but with no desperate need to alter things, the track layout / signalling just remained until the more comprehensive rationalisations of the 1960s.

 

Next aspect in next post...

[LNER4479]

Some aspects of the through train to Hawes.

 

Here's that picture of it taking water at the south end. How has it got here - and with its ar$e end fouling the up main! And there's people on board so not even an ECS shunt! It can either have reversed back out of the down main platform onto the up main, before pulling forward to this position - or pulled forward on the down, then reversed into the branch platform … and kept reversing until it got to this spot (seems unlikely).

 

Situation more normal. Via whatever means, the stock is now in the branch platform … but look across to the mid left hand distance - there's the train loco, heading on to the turntable to turn.

 

Further proof on the tender / bunker first run from Garsdale to Hawes.

 

From an earlier era, here is the train waiting to start its return journey from Hawes, the LMS 2P loco undoubtedly performed the same manoeuvre at Garsdale to get it facing right way once it had run round its train at Hawes.

(I've included the credit for the photos where I know it for copyright reasons)

 

[LNER4479]

Here's another example of through traffic being worked - horses! Photos taken by my late stepfather.

 

Leyburn was a centre for horse traffic,  being two miles away from the town of Middleham, a traditional centre for horse training and racing (I only know that cos I just Google'd it!). This Garsdale-bound working picked up a horsebox at Leyburn and attached it to the front of its train.

 

Upon arrival at Garsdale, the G5 loco can only have drawn forward out of the branch platform with said horsebox (possibly topping up the water supply at the water column if there was a live nag on board?) before reversing over the south end crossover and attached it straight on the rear of a (conveniently timed) mainline stopping train, heading north. Slick working or what?

 

Loco then pulls away forward again as a direct reverse of the above move. It's none other than 67345, a minor celebrity on the line and remembered to this day at Hawes station through the medium of an industrial tank loco., liveried up as if it were 67345!

 

Now run round its train and preparing to head back down Wensleydale. And proving me wrong from earlier post by working bunker first. The old NER men obviously of a tougher breed than the Midland men!

 

One more coming up for this evening...

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

A couple showing the 'up siding' to in fact be the goods yard.

 

The substantial water tower was a distinctive feature at Garsdale (apparently the room below saw use as the village hall!) but this view clearly shows the gated access to the yard and a solitary open wagon (5-planked general goods, NOT a mineral wagon) in the yard.

 

From a slightly different angle, this time a mineral wagon (wooden-bodied) is in the yard, with its hinged door deployed, pointing to sack full deliveries, straight off the wagon (hence the gate for security!). A (ex-Midland?) van keeps it company. From this angle, we see what looks like a grounded coach body, presumably acting as the yard office. All very primitive / basic - but what more would be needed at such a remote spot?

 

Any further comments arising on this or any of the other above posts gratefully received. My Garsdale research archive goes back to the early 1980s so its nice to share some of it after all these years to try and get things as authentic and convincing as possible.

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Very entertaining, very little was left in 1990/91, when I worked 156's over the S&C, although I think the turntable pit was still there, didn't the turntable got to K&WVR.

 

manna

[St Enodoc]

Graham, I was in the local newsagent this morning and spotted a magazine called "The Way We Were 4" published by Classic Car Weekly. It features dozens of photographs of scenes from teh 1950s to the 1990s, focusing on cars of course, but the reason I bought it was to see the pictures of landscapes, streetscapes, townscapes and roadscapes (is there such a word?) as they were. I mention it here because one of the photos from 1968 is of the 15 Guinea Special heading North over the Low Sleights Road bridge at Shap Wells. The road is lined with cars (and their occupants), ranging from an NSU Prinz 30E to a Triumph GT6. A great classic photo.

[Flying Fox 34F]

10 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Some aspects of the through train to Hawes.

 

Here's that picture of it taking water at the south end. How has it got here - and with its ar$e end fouling the up main! And there's people on board so not even an ECS shunt! It can either have reversed back out of the down main platform onto the up main, before pulling forward to this position - or pulled forward on the down, then reversed into the branch platform … and kept reversing until it got to this spot (seems unlikely).

 

Situation more normal. Via whatever means, the stock is now in the branch platform … but look across to the mid left hand distance - there's the train loco, heading on to the turntable to turn.

 

Further proof on the tender / bunker first run from Garsdale to Hawes.

 

From an earlier era, here is the train waiting to start its return journey from Hawes, the LMS 2P loco undoubtedly performed the same manoeuvre at Garsdale to get it facing right way once it had run round its train at Hawes.

(I've included the credit for the photos where I know it for copyright reasons)

 

I’m going to stick my neck out here, but here goes.  Studying the Signal diagram to ponder the movements of the through Hawes trains, the position of the Fairburn tank taking water at the south end of the station, could be done with passengers present, by reversing from the Down Main via the north end crossover, then propelling along the Hawes Branch platform to then stand foul of the Up Main.  (Mind you, officially, I would like to think that someone has secured trailing points, 7c and 8b that are under the carriages?)

A copy of the a Sectional Appendix would help.
If the south end crossover had been used, someone would have had to clip   and scotch four point ends Instead.

One curious thought, was there a Water Crane available at the north end of the station or is the one shown the only one?

Paul

 

 

[lincolnshiremodeller]

10 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Very entertaining, very little was left in 1990/91, when I worked 156's over the S&C, although I think the turntable pit was still there, didn't the turntable got to K&WVR.

 

manna

It did indeed.

[Wheatley]

Certainly is still there. One of the pway fell in it at 3am one morning in 1993 while we were simultaneously trying to deal with a failed tamper and a dropped pager. 

 

This is a fascinating project, really enjoying it !

Edited May 9, 2020 by Wheatley

[Michael Edge]

The turntable pit is still there, I scrambled through the undergrowth to get some photos and measurements for our version of Garsdale.

The turntable bridge is at Keighley - incidentally the hole in your baseboard looks a bit big, this is only a small table - 50ft?

Your photos are very interesting, showing the difficulty of getting water for Bonnyface. The only water columns at Garsdale were the two at the south end so these had to be used one way or another. There were two reasons for turning the tank loco at Garsdale, to be chimney first for the run back to Hellifield and for the firebox to be at the bottom end of the climb out of Hawes. No turntable at Hawes so it had to be done here. They always filled the tanks before running down to Hawes - was this because there was no water there, or possibly a poor supply?

The same didn't apply to the NE G5s, they were working through to Northallerton until 1954.

Interesting to see that the up siding was used as a goods yard, all I've seen in there were pway wagons and the odd cripple. Horse box traffic must have been significant, I have a photo of two parked in the short end loading dock at the up end of Garsdale - maybe returning empty?

I have only seen one photo of a goods train using the down siding as a layby - in an early LMS Journal it's wrongly captioned as being on the down main.

[LNER4479]

6 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I’m going to stick my neck out here, but here goes.  Studying the Signal diagram to ponder the movements of the through Hawes trains, the position of the Fairburn tank taking water at the south end of the station, could be done with passengers present, by reversing from the Down Main via the north end crossover, then propelling along the Hawes Branch platform to then stand foul of the Up Main.  (Mind you, officially, I would like to think that someone has secured trailing points, 7c and 8b that are under the carriages?)

A copy of the a Sectional Appendix would help.
If the south end crossover had been used, someone would have had to clip   and scotch four point ends Instead.

One curious thought, was there a Water Crane available at the north end of the station or is the one shown the only one?

Paul
 

Thanks for 'having a go' Paul(!) Perhaps you and I can fathom it out between us?

 

So, assuming the shunt across of the 'Bonny face' is done at the north end (which is how I would want to do it on the model, in any case), signal 19 is pulled off to control the move forward? Or is it a simple verbal communication from the (handily placed!) signal box? Thereafter the train is occupying T.115, clear of 33 points. This then allows points 33 and 31 to be reversed (assuming no 'up' traffic on the line) which then releases (shunt) signal 34 which is then pulled off, locking points 33 and 31 in their reverse position. Train then signalled to propel back into the branch platform.

 

The reason for labouring the point (ha!) there a little, is to postulate that signal 34 is for that move (ie down main (T.115) to branch platform. There is no other signal there hence down main (T.115) to up main (T.548) is not a signalled move? To achieve that (other by instruction from the signalman), you have to go via the branch platform where, at the south end, there is of course a lovely big main signal (No.10) to control your departure out onto the up main.

 

It would also be interesting to know what moves the two mainline shunt signals at the south end correspond to? In the example of the horsebox shunt, illustrated above, the loco plus van would first draw forward out of the branch platform onto the up main (T.114), under the control of signal 10(?) Then points 5 reverse and shunt signal 4 pulled off would set up the move into the down main platform (at caution!) to attach the van to the rear of the passenger train. Signal 4 restored and shunt signal 6 pulled off then allows the now light loco to return back to the up main (T.114) ... but then he's stuck(!) as there's no signal that controls the move back into the branch platform from that position?!

 

In a similar vein, if (shunt) signal 6 is for down main (T.549) to up main (T.114), then there is no signal to access the Up Siding ('goods yard') from there so how is it shunted? Similar conundrum for getting in to the 'Sidings'? Mind you - they're still there to this day, along with crossover 33 so may be a site visit required?(!)

 

Given that these were routine, everyday moves, I very much doubt serial clipping and scotching went on, not in the 1950's (or earlier still)?

 

I've added the signalling diagram again, for ease of reference to help follow the above diatribe!

[Michael Edge]

The Bonnyface shunt was definitely done at the north end, not sure whether it had passengers on or not - but there were never many of them anyway. It was as you say all under the nose of the bobby so anything might have happened.

[LNER4479]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

The turntable bridge is at Keighley - incidentally the hole in your baseboard looks a bit big, this is only a small table - 50ft?

 

Horse box traffic must have been significant, I have a photo of two parked in the short end loading dock at the up end of Garsdale - maybe returning empty?

Thanks Mike,

 

Just measured my T/T pit - it's 21cm diameter, so just over the scale 50ft. Courtesy of Jonathan Wealleans of this parish, I have the London Road Models kit for a 50ft turntable all ready to go, including a vac. formed pit, which fits just lovely in my 'ole. There may be some detail differences between the kit and the prototype and I'll attempt to attend to those - there was a series of articles in Steam Railway magazine at the time the turntable was recovered and transported to Keighley which give good detail views - but at the end of the day the important thing for me is that it's the right size and works! Most of the detail will be impossible to see, particularly with the sleeper stockade in place!

 

As well as horse traffic, cattle traffic was also still prevalent in the 1950s, hence the cattle pens at the loading dock you describe. Plenty of pics of trains coming off the branch with a cattle van or two at the head, clearly with live animals in. I've read somewhere that Garsdale was chosen as a 'concentration point' (relatively speaking!) for remaining livestock traffic in the area, allowing some of the other cattle docks to be taken out of use.

Edited May 9, 2020 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Graham, I was in the local newsagent this morning and spotted a magazine called "The Way We Were 4" published by Classic Car Weekly. It features dozens of photographs of scenes from teh 1950s to the 1990s, focusing on cars of course, but the reason I bought it was to see the pictures of landscapes, streetscapes, townscapes and roadscapes (is there such a word?) as they were. I mention it here because one of the photos from 1968 is of the 15 Guinea Special heading North over the Low Sleights Road bridge at Shap Wells. The road is lined with cars (and their occupants), ranging from an NSU Prinz 30E to a Triumph GT6. A great classic photo.

I have seen similar photos of the road at Ais Gill blocked solid with cars - parked both sides then two cars meet with no room to pass, resulting in total gridlock! Yes, great for car spotting.

 

'I was there' (as Max Boyce used to say) on 11th August 1968. In fact we only went to Ribblehead to see the northbound run with 70013. My Dad has always said that he was too upset to see any more of it and we returned home. Just as well, as he'd never have coped with that traffic jam at Ais Gill!!

 

(historical note - the 15 guinea special didn't go over Shap so either your reference is in error or it was a different railtour / date?)

[Flying Fox 34F]

7 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks for 'having a go' Paul(!) Perhaps you and I can fathom it out between us?

 

So, assuming the shunt across of the 'Bonny face' is done at the north end (which is how I would want to do it on the model, in any case), signal 19 is pulled off to control the move forward? Or is it a simple verbal communication from the (handily placed!) signal box? Thereafter the train is occupying T.115, clear of 33 points. This then allows points 33 and 31 to be reversed (assuming no 'up' traffic on the line) which then releases (shunt) signal 34 which is then pulled off, locking points 33 and 31 in their reverse position. Train then signalled to propel back into the branch platform.

 

The reason for labouring the point (ha!) there a little, is to postulate that signal 34 is for that move (ie down main (T.115) to branch platform. There is no other signal there hence down main (T.115) to up main (T.548) is not a signalled move? To achieve that (other by instruction from the signalman), you have to go via the branch platform where, at the south end, there is of course a lovely big main signal (No.10) to control your departure out onto the up main.

 

It would also be interesting to know what moves the two mainline shunt signals at the south end correspond to? In the example of the horsebox shunt, illustrated above, the loco plus van would first draw forward out of the branch platform onto the up main (T.114), under the control of signal 10(?) Then points 5 reverse and shunt signal 4 pulled off would set up the move into the down main platform (at caution!) to attach the van to the rear of the passenger train. Signal 4 restored and shunt signal 6 pulled off then allows the now light loco to return back to the up main (T.114) ... but then he's stuck(!) as there's no signal that controls the move back into the branch platform from that position?!

 

In a similar vein, if (shunt) signal 6 is for down main (T.549) to up main (T.114), then there is no signal to access the Up Siding ('goods yard') from there so how is it shunted? Similar conundrum for getting in to the 'Sidings'? Mind you - they're still there to this day, along with crossover 33 so may be a site visit required?(!)

 

Given that these were routine, everyday moves, I very much doubt serial clipping and scotching went on, not in the 1950's (or earlier still)?

 

I've added the signalling diagram again, for ease of reference to help follow the above diatribe!

This will keep me busy for a little while.  I need to park my current day ECML head and think Midland Economy!  

Have you noticed on the diagram that the EFPL for crossover 33 is not indicated by the usual side bar?  The remaining three are displayed.

 

Paul