Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[jamie92208]

I refer my downright dishonourable friend to post 117 above...

 

I've seen a lovely painting of one of the proposed 2-D-2's in lined blackberry black.  It looked very nice coming through Lancaster Castle.    It will obviously have to go into the same project folder as the Midland Bo Bo in lined maroon.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Gordon,

 

Great memories (you lucky man!); however, I think your memory might be playing tricks slightly. Shap is twixt Lancaster and Carlisle.

 

One of my favourite books in the library is 'The Power of the Duchesses' by David Jenkinson. In there, he has a section entitled 'North of Preston - Duchess country'. What more inspiration could a man need?

 

As a matter of railwayological exactitude the change, in running terms, comes  just after passing Carnforth where you go down into the dip and then hit the stretch 1 in 134 rising which is effectively the beginning of the climb up to the Lune Gorge thence to Shap.  North of Carnforth was incidentally where, in that summer of 1967, I last clocked 90 mph on a steam hauled service train, the Up 'Lakes Express' worked by a Black Five.  

 

Much of the line from Preston to Lancaster is on the level then falling towards Carnforth.  There is of course another ration of climbing into the mountains away to the north of Carlisle.

Edited December 5, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[APOLLO]

After leaving London the first "steep bit" on the WCML is probably the 1 in 105 climb up to Boars Head immediately north of Wigan NW. Some shots of late steam (1966/7) on this bank working hard on my photo sites below.

 

Are the any steep bits (apart from Camden bank) between London & Wigan that gave steam a hard time ?

 

Brit15

[LNER4479]

As a matter of railwayological exactitude the change, in running terms, comes  just after passing Carnforth where you go down into the dip and then hit the stretch 1 in 134 rising which is effectively the beginning of the climb up to the Lune Gorge thence to Shap.  North of Carnforth was incidentally where, in that summer of 1967, I last clocked 90 mph on a steam hauled service train, the Up 'Lakes Express' worked by a Black Five.  

 

Much of the line from Preston to Lancaster is on the level then falling towards Carnforth.  There is of course another ration of climbing into the mountains away to the north of Carlisle.

Thanks Mike. Fully aware of the topography; I was referring more to the change of scene in a general sense (Gordon did refer to a change of scenery). Definitely gets more rural north of Preston, whereas Warrington, Wigan etc are far more intense and industrialised. Mr Serpell (remember him?) would have had us believe that the WCML was only profitable as far as Preston and the most extreme of his plans saw the route north of Preston being shut. I well remember looking at his map in horror!

 

Preston to Lancaster is a good warm up if you're lucky enough to get an uninterrupted run to Carlisle, as happened with Tornado in 2010.

Edited December 5, 2017 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

After leaving London the first "steep bit" on the WCML is probably the 1 in 105 climb up to Boars Head immediately north of Wigan NW. Some shots of late steam (1966/7) on this bank working hard on my photo sites below.

 

Are the any steep bits (apart from Camden bank) between London & Wigan that gave steam a hard time ?

 

Brit15

No, I think that's pretty much it. Little speed bump over the Ship Canal at Warrington, hardly likely to worry anything on the mainline but maybe more interesting for freight trains getting out of Arpley yard. There's a dip down into Lancaster which is a stiff little pull from southbound trains, particularly starting away from the station, but that's north of Preston in any case.

 

The serious stuff - as Mike eruditely outlines - starts at Carnforth, just after you've passed the only bit of the WCML where you are actually alongside the west coast, at Hest Bank.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike. Fully aware of the topography; I was referring more to the change of scene in a general sense (Gordon did refer to a change of scenery). Definitely gets more rural north of Preston, whereas Warrington, Wigan etc are far more intense and industrialised. Mr Serpell (remember him?) would have had us believe that the WCML was only profitable as far as Preston and the most extreme of his plans saw the route north of Preston being shut. I well remember looking at his map in horror!

 

Preston to Lancaster is a good warm up if you're lucky enough to get an uninterrupted run to Carlisle, as happened with Tornado in 2010.

 

Agreed on that.

 

That nice (pardon) Mr Serpell indirectly kept me more than gainfully employed devising some very radical rationalisation schemes to help my masters on the WR fight off his loony depredations.  Fortunately nothing of what I planned (and timetable proved) ever came to fruition as there would have been some very considerable stretches of single line railway to re-double in recent years.  But I must admit my suggestion for four parallel single lines between Reading and Paddington was really a joke.  

 

The one joke which nearly got approval was a paper which went into a meeting on 1 April seeking authority to develop a particular scheme.  It was based on the premise that most people who attended such meetings never bothered to read the papers beforehand.  The Deputy GM, who regularly chaired the investment group meeting, was most taken with my idea and allowed the paper to go in as the final agenda item.  And, as expected, nobody read it beforehand so when they turned over to read the final paragraph they were all fired up to find out what the scheme was to greatly increase speeds and reduce journey times;  the final sentence simply asked for authority to proceed with the development of a scheme to widen the track gauge to 7ft and a quarter inch in order to allow significant increase in train speeds.  The DGM said later that he was greatly amused to note the number of red faces around the table.

 

Back to Shap I think.

[St Enodoc]

Agreed on that.

 

That nice (pardon) Mr Serpell indirectly kept me more than gainfully employed devising some very radical rationalisation schemes to help my masters on the WR fight off his loony depredations.  Fortunately nothing of what I planned (and timetable proved) ever came to fruition as there would have been some very considerable stretches of single line railway to re-double in recent years.  But I must admit my suggestion for four parallel single lines between Reading and Paddington was really a joke.  

 

The one joke which nearly got approval was a paper which went into a meeting on 1 April seeking authority to develop a particular scheme.  It was based on the premise that most people who attended such meetings never bothered to read the papers beforehand.  The Deputy GM, who regularly chaired the investment group meeting, was most taken with my idea and allowed the paper to go in as the final agenda item.  And, as expected, nobody read it beforehand so when they turned over to read the final paragraph they were all fired up to find out what the scheme was to greatly increase speeds and reduce journey times;  the final sentence simply asked for authority to proceed with the development of a scheme to widen the track gauge to 7ft and a quarter inch in order to allow significant increase in train speeds.  The DGM said later that he was greatly amused to note the number of red faces around the table.

 

Back to Shap I think.

Back to Shap in due course no doubt but first...

 

I've told this story elsewhere on RMweb, so apologies if you have read it before.

 

In 1989 I was seconded to a team charged with redefining and reorganising the M&EE area structure on the Eastern Region as part of the national M&EE review. Now, as many will know, BR used abbreviations and acronyms almost to the same extent as the armed forces, so for a bit of fun we decided to create a position called the Area Rolling Stock and Overhead Line Engineer. It got further up the chain than we expected before somebody rumbled us...

[LNER4479]

Back to Shap in due course no doubt but first...

 

I've told this story elsewhere on RMweb, so apologies if you have read it before.

 

In 1989 I was seconded to a team charged with redefining and reorganising the M&EE area structure on the Eastern Region as part of the national M&EE review. Now, as many will know, BR used abbreviations and acronyms almost to the same extent as the armed forces, so for a bit of fun we decided to create a position called the Area Rolling Stock and Overhead Line Engineer. It got further up the chain than we expected before somebody rumbled us...

So you were never a Area Rolling Stock Engineer then? (this job title really did exist!)

 

Our favourites are the BR 1990's re-organisations: Organising For Quality, referred to as 'O for Q'

 

There was even a follow up: Organising For Quality 2

 

(Quick - find some Shap photos...)

Edited December 5, 2017 by LNER4479

[gordon s]

Hi Gordon,

 

Great memories (you lucky man!); however, I think your memory might be playing tricks slightly. Shap is twixt Lancaster and Carlisle.

 

One of my favourite books in the library is 'The Power of the Duchesses' by David Jenkinson. In there, he has a section entitled 'North of Preston - Duchess country'. What more inspiration could a man need?

Oops! Well I am rapidly approaching 70......That's my excuse anyway.....

 

Many thanks for the correction...:-)

 

Edit: Yes, I was thinking about the scenery, but the change in engine note really referred to Shap, so I did make a mental link that they were one and the same. Maybe I was thinking in terms of Beattock as well.

Edited December 5, 2017 by gordon s

[St Enodoc]

So you were never a Area Rolling Stock Engineer then? (this job title really did exist!)

 

Our favourites are the BR 1990's re-organisations: Organising For Quality, referred to as 'O for Q'

 

There was even a follow up: Organising For Quality 2

 

(Quick - find some Shap photos...)

Some might say that I was (am) but it was never my job title.

[Barry O]

While Graham and the guys were busy building the railway some of us went off to do other things..like collecting freightliner items. One item which we needed but is not readily available is a guards caboose...

 

 

an interesting bit of bodging but OK for a layout item

 

Baz

[woodenhead]

Nice Freightliner guards container, but less diesels more steam - watching that video reminded me it's more fun behind two Black Fives going hard up Shap or with big Lizzie than a Deltic up Stoke Bank.

[LNER4479]

Nice Freightliner guards container, but less diesels more steam - watching that video reminded me it's more fun behind two Black Fives going hard up Shap or with big Lizzie than a Deltic up Stoke Bank.

Actually, that's a good cue for a straw poll. What would folks actually like to see at an exhibition?

 

a) 1950's pure steam, mix of blood & custard and maroon. Stanier fleet in full cry; Fowler 4MT bankers

b) early 1960's transition, virtually all maroon. Diesels on some express workings; Fairburn 4MT bankers taking over

c) late 1960's end of steam - as per Warley

 

Personally I'm clearly in camp A, but happy to display the layout in whatever era folks like. We have the stock for any of those eras (give or take)

 

To whet your appetite, couldn't help setting up the following train, at around the time that the full circuit was first up and running. A rough approximation at the Midday Scot. Through WR coach needed at the head of the formation (since acquired) and loco would need an early emblem for a full B&C rake.

[westerner]

Quite like the idea of "b" early 60s transition.

[woodenhead]

Camp A for me, but at push I would accept class 40s plus the Twins and the Bulleids

[Anglian]

Of those listed I'd like option A. However, I'd like LMS 1935 – 38 even more.

[jamie92208]

While Graham and the guys were busy building the railway some of us went off to do other things..like collecting freightliner items. One item which we needed but is not readily available is a guards caboose...

 

20170822_193832_resized.jpg

 

an interesting bit of bodging but OK for a layout item

 

Baz

 

There used to be one of those in a corner of the yard at Stourton for many years.  It may be the one that ended up at York.   I was told that the guards didn't think much of the ride quality.

 

I would vote for option b above by the way.

 

Jamie

[Phil Bullock]

B - or C, with Standard 4 or - post 1.1.68 - Clayton bankers.

 

Go on - you know you want to!

 

Phil

[Clive Mortimore]

Actually, that's a good cue for a straw poll. What would folks actually like to see at an exhibition?

 

a) 1950's pure steam, mix of blood & custard and maroon. Stanier fleet in full cry; Fowler 4MT bankers

b) early 1960's transition, virtually all maroon. Diesels on some express workings; Fairburn 4MT bankers taking over

c) late 1960's end of steam - as per Warley

 

Personally I'm clearly in camp A, but happy to display the layout in whatever era folks like. We have the stock for any of those eras (give or take)

 

To whet your appetite, couldn't help setting up the following train, at around the time that the full circuit was first up and running. A rough approximation at the Midday Scot. Through WR coach needed at the head of the formation (since acquired) and loco would need an early emblem for a full B&C rake.

None of the above.......see post 112 :nono:

 

All three would work very well. Most layouts that can be portrayed in various time periods fail in never making sure the supporting cast of road vehicles, peoples clothing and farming methods are appropriate for the period of the trains. OK clothing most hardy people on Shap would be wrapped up warm and the average puffer nutter over that period would be wearing much the same in the early 50s as in the late 60s past that point anoraks would have been common attire. With today's range of cars by Oxford a handful of cars covering the 40s to the 60s would be fine. Thankfully hill farming has stayed very similar for many decades. Make sure the sheep are the right breeds for the area, look up Herdwicks, Swaledales and Rough Fells.

 

Personally I would like to see this one added.

 

D Pre TOPS corporate image, D400s double heading  expresses, grotty green 2000s on mixed traditional freight, Bo-Bos on departmental duties, Brush 4s on air braked freights and at a push Claytons running behind when they were supposed to be banking.

B - or C, with Standard 4 or - post 1.1.68 - Clayton bankers.

 

Go on - you know you want to!

 

Phil

2 votes for Claytons :locomotive: :locomotive:  

[LNER4479]

However, I'd like LMS 1935 – 38 even more.

Don't tempt me! 

 

I do have a Hornby 6225 in streamlined red. That's it though. Nowt for it to pull!

 

Thanks for thoughts so far. Keep 'em coming. Option B seems to have the slight edge ... interesting.

[Barry O]

There used to be one of those in a corner of the yard at Stourton for many years.  It may be the one that ended up at York.   I was told that the guards didn't think much of the ride quality.

 

 

Jamie

The one at York is a different one. It has bubble lookouts for the guards....and I still can't work out how a guard could get on and off the train if travelling in one of these "caboose" type containers.

[John B]

Must admit I like the 67-68 option as the death knells of steam are rarely modelled to such good effect as this..

[Clive Mortimore]

Forgot to say, I was distracted by Lord Bullock Of Abbotswood request for Claytons, just as I was typing the same thing.

 

Hills of the North is going to be a winning layout.    It is not complicated by shunting movements which slow big layouts down.   It is prototypical.   It has long trains. It is a trainspotters train set.

[Clive Mortimore]

The one at York is a different one. It has bubble lookouts for the guards....and I still can't work out how a guard could get on and off the train if travelling in one of these "caboose" type containers.

Hi Baz

 

The one you have built was converted from the second type A 10 ft container. The York one is purpose built.

 

An alternative for the liner train is for the guard to ride in a ex LMS coach or a BR mk1 non-gangway coach. There is a list of the ones airbraked for such duties in the book Life and Times of Freightliner. It also covers the early types of container.

[LNER4479]

An alternative for the liner train is for the guard to ride in a ex LMS coach or a BR mk1 non-gangway coach. There is a list of the ones airbraked for such duties in the book Life and Times of Freightliner. It also covers the early types of container.

Interesting...

 

Have you see the attached, Clive? Thought it was an interesting find whilst doing the usual internet trawling.

BRB_Freight1965.pdf