Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[LNER4479]

This week's update is a bit of an amalgam of  several weeks actually as, away from Stanier 4-6-0 considerations and signalboxes, in the background I've been plugging away at the track refurbishment work at Central station. As follows:

 

After a short break (working at Bog Junction), it was time to tackle the heart of the station throat and the last of the truly perished underlay.

 

Just HOW perished can be judged from this picture!

 

That's better already. The cleaned up area now has the 3mm cork put down. Note however that the right hand 3-way point stays for now as a reference point for reinstating the removed track.

 

Removed trackwork being sprayed. The little card inserts protect the point blades from getting gummed up with paint. This is the rail colour - more grey-brown for 'living' track, rather than red rust - the sleeper colour gets sprayed on afterwards, at 90degrees to the rail sides.

 

And now the real 'gulp!' moment - removing the track going into the train shed. The 'oo-er' moment being the removal of the trackpins from under the trainshed roof. One false slip and I could cause myself hours of repair work to the trainshed structure.

 

With track removed, it looks a little like the real place did when it became a car park in the 1970s. Yikes! Get that track down again quick ...

 

This shows how much has been removed. Again, the remainder of the track is left in place as the reference point for replacing. Not immediately apparent here - but there if you look closely - are the holes for the track wires. After a couple of attempts to get the soldering iron in place to unsolder the wires from the track, I gave up and cut the wires one at a time, labelling them from beneath. The removed tracks have then had fresh dropper wires soldered on at the same place so should drop down these holes as they're replaced. That the theory, anyway ...

 

Now with replacement cork being laid. This shows the advantage of a high, clear span roof - I can get some weight in there while the glue sets!

 

The other thing to be tackled with this work is that some of the points remain to be motorised - they were in the 'too difficult' pile previously! One advantage of using the cork is that I can directly attach the motor underneath (which guarantees operation) and, with wires pre-attached, should be easy to wire in; it works as a crossover with its partner point, bottom(-ish) left.

 

Run out of (file) space; Part 2 to follow shortly...

Edited November 15, 2020 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

And here we are, earlier today ...

 

Minor milestone achieved - the complete station throat is now refurbished, sitting on cork underlay and all reconnected with points working (track testing yet to take place). Gladdening my heart at least here is the sight of the pointwork and track leading up to platforms 4 and 5 (platforms read from left-to-right in this view), thus reinstating the overall look of the track layout.

 

Looking the other way, this is the operator viewpoint. One thing I've done in conjunction with this work is to re-affix the loose bits of platform surface so that all looks better.

 

Looking closer towards to the trainshed - yes - the tracks have returned. Phew!

 

As far as here. But, significantly, the hardest-to-reach trackpin has been successfully replaced so that's also a 'phew' moment for me.

 

Whilst we're looking inside, couldn't help pointing the camera the other way. This bit doesn't look too bad - the foam isn't in so bad a state and I'd previously made a start on painting rails ... but it's all going to come up. This is all going to have to serve for another 25-30 years - god willing(!) - so best to take the cure now.

 

Finally, not sure I've shown this before. As a predecessor to what I went on to do with Grantham (and Shap) this is the Central station lever frame. All points; no signals and no interlocking - but, as previously mentioned, it all fired up OK and is working fine, over 20 years since first installed.

 

That's the kiss of death, just you see ...

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by LNER4479

[simontaylor484]

Looking good there 

[LNER4479]

It's Sunday evening; it's time for an update.

 

This week, we've 'broken out' at the Central end of the gap; here is carpentry under way. The rear baseboard is in for keeps and the nearer one, with the spirit level on, is still being worked on at this stage. The divergence takes account of the Maryport and Carlisle route (at the rear) having an alignment all of its own to get into Carlisle from the south.

 

And here we are, as of earlier this evening. We are linked up - after a fashion - with tracks just laid out for now to show how it's intended to be. On this nearest board, the mainlines are at the rear whilst nearest the camera are a combination of station headshunt and carriage sidings. Not that there is much capacity here; the sidings might actually be of most use for DMU storage (what?! Did I just day that?). One reason for this is illustrated by the two lengths of Streamline placed on top, at an angle - they represent the rough alignment of the West Coast main line running lines, heading for Upperby which will cross over here at a level above. That makes these sidings pretty in accessible, therefore.

 

Moving up a little, here is the next board, the key aspect here being the curve round of the goods lines from Bog Junction to Dentonholme (more or less where the camera is). For now, I'll probably plain line through this double plain crossing formation (indicated by the yellow template) but otherwise you can see how it cuts short the siding space from Central.

 

Looking back from Bog Junction, the Ivatt station pilot is straining at the leash with the stock of the Waverley ... but it might have to wait for a week or more just yet.

 

Talking of stock, here is that latest batch of wagons I have been working on. I featured some of the kit builds included here some months ago. Those six wagons have grown to 11 by the addition of a couple more acquired wagons and some RTR vehicles which have had suitable treatment. They're all now complete with lettering and couplings and lined up immediately prior to weathering.

 

Here's my simple(?) approach to weathering. A splodge each of M33 matt black and M70 brick red and some dirty thinners. Here that general mix has been roughly daubed on this fish van and I've just taken a moment to photograph before brushing it around a bit, generally streaking the mix downwards from top to bottom. I've been doing it like this for years; works for me.

 

And here they are, massed at Bog Junction, waiting for the track work to be finished. The two vans have deliberately been left as freshly-painted bauxite (just a wash of thinners only) as there's often one or two like that in a rake of vans. The two open wagons are in works to have tarpaulins fitted to depict a covered load.

 

More soon.

 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Did they catch the burglars?

 

Mike.

[Barry Ten]

I don't usually have too much to comment on here, but just to say that this is fantastic, stirring stuff, so please keep it coming,

[LNER4479]

On 23/11/2020 at 00:08, LNER4479 said:

... the Ivatt station pilot is straining at the leash with the stock of the Waverley ... but it might have to wait for a week or more just yet.

 

Well - didn't have to wait that long as it turned out.

 

We connected up - albeit the nearer lengths are temporary for now, pending installation of the double plain crossing (yellow template). About 12 feet in total, or 4 yard lengths of Streamline on each running line.

 

Well, we gotta have a little bit of play to celebrate. Central far from fully functioning yet, but we can drive trains from here so No.70054 prepares for departure with the Waverley rake. Ivatt station pilot looks on. Apologies for the clutter otherwise - this is still a building site!

 

Getting underway, 70044 takes her train past the signalbox and on to the newly laid tracks.

 

Train entirely on the new stretch. The tracks plonked on the right are the station headshunt and two carriage sidings.

 

And now reached Bog Junction, with the previously laid crossover just ahead.

 

Plenty to do yet before any sort of proper running but a milestone nonetheless.

 

 

 

[LNER4479]

Meanwhile - who's into timetables?

 

Enclosed is some initial work I've been doing on timetable compilation. From my treasured 1955 Bradshaws all line timetable, I've put together a 24 hour arrival / departure line up for the station. Wow - high octane stuff. None of it unexpected but quite something to see it all in one place. Just look at the succession of 'big' trains during the busy periods ...

 

But can the layout actually support the sheer amount of stock required? Probably not! A certain amount of compromise required ... and perhaps some use of cassettes?

 

Comments from timetabling types welcome.

Carlisle timetable 1955.docx

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Meanwhile - who's into timetables?

 

Enclosed is some initial work I've been doing on timetable compilation. From my treasured 1955 Bradshaws all line timetable, I've put together a 24 hour arrival / departure line up for the station. Wow - high octane stuff. None of it unexpected but quite something to see it all in one place. Just look at the succession of 'big' trains during the busy periods ...

 

But can the layout actually support the sheer amount of stock required? Probably not! A certain amount of compromise required ... and perhaps some use of cassettes?

 

Comments from timetabling types welcome.

Carlisle timetable 1955.docx 55.11 kB · 13 downloads

 

I share your interest in timetables. By coincidence, I also have a 1955 Bradshaw as well as January 1948 which ignores nationalisation with the "Big Four" still shown at the head of each page.

 

Not being in a position at the moment to start layout build, I did spend some time during Lockdown v1, writing out the passenger timetable for the layout. It turned out to be a useful exercise in working out how much rolling stock was needed (even with some rakes being used for more than one service) but, above all, working out how many roads would be needed in each of the three sets of hidden sidings.

 

Next stage, which I also enjoy as a mental exercise, is to transfer that onto a timetable graph so that I can also work out some paths for freight trains.

[thegreenhowards]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Meanwhile - who's into timetables?

 

Enclosed is some initial work I've been doing on timetable compilation. From my treasured 1955 Bradshaws all line timetable, I've put together a 24 hour arrival / departure line up for the station. Wow - high octane stuff. None of it unexpected but quite something to see it all in one place. Just look at the succession of 'big' trains during the busy periods ...

 

But can the layout actually support the sheer amount of stock required? Probably not! A certain amount of compromise required ... and perhaps some use of cassettes?

 

Comments from timetabling types welcome.

Carlisle timetable 1955.docx 55.11 kB · 12 down

I can’t comment on the details of the LM timetable but from my experience of operating what would normally be called a large layout (but distinctly small by comparison to yours!), I would say that you can never have enough space in the fiddle yard to store enough trains to replicate the full timetable on a mainline layout like this. And even if you did the cost would be astronomical for a lot of stock which would only turn a wheel very occasionally. My fiddle yard is 15 through roads with some kick backs and some roads can handle two trains. I also have a lot of stock in cassetttes.
 

My solution is to have two schedules.
 

The basic schedule is what I operate when friends come to ‘play’. It is a small snapshot of the timetable with my favourite trains cherry picked and made up ready in my fiddle yard. I also add a couple of trains from cassettes and some trains run more than once. This takes about 2 hours to run through which is just right for a ‘session’.

 

My full schedule Is based on the ECML timetable through Hatfield in 1958 and runs from midday to midnight. There are lots of trains in this (the vast majority) which don’t fit in the fiddle yard. One or two are kept intact in cassettes or cardboard boxes but most consist of strings of Mark 1s with a Thompson or Gresley catering core. These are made up from loose stock as and when they need to run. I have a shelf with 25 assorted Mark 1s and just pull down the ones needed for a particular train. The catering cores and a few pre-Mark 1 carriages live in cassettes. I tend to run this for my own satisfaction and for RMWeb but it takes far too long mucking around forming up trains to attempt to run it when I have friends round. This is 150 moves (and counting as I find new things to add!) and tends to take 3months plus to run through (probably 36 hours of elapsed time). I adapted this approach from Gilbert’s system on Peterborough North and it works well for me, but I don’t think it would suit the style of operation you seem to have in mind.

 

I suspect you will need to build as big a fiddle yard as you can manage and accept a compromise list of trains similar to a souped up version of my basic schedule.

 

I hope that is helpful.

 

Andy

[Sharky]

On 30/11/2020 at 11:24, LNER4479 said:

Meanwhile - who's into timetables?

 

Enclosed is some initial work I've been doing on timetable compilation. From my treasured 1955 Bradshaws all line timetable, I've put together a 24 hour arrival / departure line up for the station. Wow - high octane stuff. None of it unexpected but quite something to see it all in one place. Just look at the succession of 'big' trains during the busy periods ...

 

But can the layout actually support the sheer amount of stock required? Probably not! A certain amount of compromise required ... and perhaps some use of cassettes?

 

Comments from timetabling types welcome.

Carlisle timetable 1955.docx 55.11 kB · 33 downloads

 

Some compromise  would definitely be needed. Unless you intend on extend the Hall to twice the size for a fiddleyard dedicated to Pass trains...
The idea of using Cassettes would be viable for the shorter 'local trains' or 'Semi fasts', probably nothing over 5 cars. Interchanging the cassettes with trains of similar length will save of costly storage room for the Longer Intercaptial and Intercity expresses.
Another idea would be to use the same stock for different 'locals', interchanging the locos to give the illusion the train has come from elsewhere.

[LMS29]

On 30/11/2020 at 00:24, LNER4479 said:

Meanwhile - who's into timetables?

 

Enclosed is some initial work I've been doing on timetable compilation. From my treasured 1955 Bradshaws all line timetable, I've put together a 24 hour arrival / departure line up for the station. Wow - high octane stuff. None of it unexpected but quite something to see it all in one place. Just look at the succession of 'big' trains during the busy periods ...

 

But can the layout actually support the sheer amount of stock required? Probably not! A certain amount of compromise required ... and perhaps some use of cassettes?

 

Comments from timetabling types welcome.

Carlisle timetable 1955.docx 55.11 kB · 39 downloads

Graham,

 

I use 20 storage sidings plus 6 locos on scene to get through the modest timetable for Ilkley, I think that selective compromise is required.  Which are the trains you most recall most vividly??

 

Tom

[Mallard60022]

On 21/10/2020 at 11:30, cheesysmith said:

Just catching up with different layouts, due to being in lockdown. My god man, you are a layout builder addict. Grantham, woodhead(assisting), hills of the north, and now this. Someone take his power tools off him before the rest of use feel inadequate lol.

 

Ps-is this code 100 again?

Even had a hand in SOSJ as well otherwise it would still be just some bits of wood. The man is a machine....

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Even had a hand in SOSJ as well otherwise it would still be just some bits of wood. The man is a machine....

And a few others of which I'm aware (not mine - yet...).

Edited December 4, 2020 by St Enodoc

[coronach]

15 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Even had a hand in SOSJ as well otherwise it would still be just some bits of wood. The man is a machine....

And a bit of 12"/ft scale too I believe.

 

[Barry Ten]

On 01/12/2020 at 10:21, Sharky said:

 

Some compromise  would definitely be needed. Unless you intend on extend the Hall to twice the size for a fiddleyard dedicated to Pass trains...
The idea of using Cassettes would be viable for the shorter 'local trains' or 'Semi fasts', probably nothing over 5 cars. Interchanging the cassettes with trains of similar length will save of costly storage room for the Longer Intercaptial and Intercity expresses.
Another idea would be to use the same stock for different 'locals', interchanging the locos to give the illusion the train has come from elsewhere.

 

I've got Train-Safe cassettes on my layout which come in various lengths. Mine are the 150cm ones which will do a 4 or 5 coach train and loco, depending on carriage lengths etc:

 

 

 

They do a 180cm one (which wouldn't have fitted in my fiddle yard anyway) but the 150cm ones are already at the limit

of what can be easily handled by one person. They're a pain when it comes to cleaning the rails, though, due to the

enclosed design. The only reliable solution I've found is ti push one of those heavy track cleaning tank cars through

a few times.

 

I only have six roads in my fiddle yard so the cassettes allow me to to get a few more trains into my running sessions.

 

[LNER4479]

Thanks for thoughts on timetabling (and other interesting comments).

 

First of all, here are the 'red lines':

• I do want to run a full 24 hours schedule / timetable to do the full layout justice.
• There needs to be at least as many goods trains as passenger trains - they were, afterall, what the railway was all about in those days.
• There will be several 'signature' trains, whose formation won't change (destination boards etc). 'The Royal Scot'; 'The Midday Scot'; 'The Thames-Clyde Express' at least

Thereafter, agree with most of comments, eg use of 'common' sets for different trains, use of cassettes, etc. I only want to compromise as much as absolutely need to. If it takes three months to get through the whole schedule, so what? Things will never look the same from the beginning to the end of any one running session, whether that's solo and just advancing things in my own time (a la Gilbert) or when having a running session with friends / invited guests. Whatever time of the day or night there'll be things going on. If not - just advance to when things are!

 

What HAS been occupying my mind though, partly brought about by comments above, is to take a more in-depth look at the fiddle yard arrangements. As a result have come up with this:

 

This zooms in on the area around Central station. As already stated, I've always intended to run the lines out of the back of the station - this in itself increases the practical length of trains from 7-8 coaches to the intended 11-12 coach length max. However, having looked at it further, I've now realised that I can actually do a full 180 to take the lines into a more decent set of hidden sidings / fiddle yard area. This works really well as the Central operator can just spin round to get at this area (in the absence of an assistant!)

 

The limiting factor here are the WCML running lines, falling from Shap summit to Carlisle Upperby (right-to-left). HOWEVER, these running lines are at a higher level so it might be possible to actually have some of the furthest away sidings underneath this. Whatever, those furthest away are for the 'fixed formation' sets which will only come out twice during the 24 hours; at the front is the cassette fiddling area for making up and breaking down trains as required.

 

As a bit of further explanation, at the station, platforms 2 and 3 are both departure and arrival roads. However, they will predominantly used for arrivals. Platform 4 is ONLY for departure, hence that'll the the principal platform for moving trains forward into, especially from the cassette fiddling area, hence the 'cassette advance' section of line which, technically speaking, isn't needed. But, with it, there is potential for the next express waiting to depart being in plat.4, with the next one almost buffered up behind it - and you can still be bringing something out of 2 or 3 into one of the fixed roads.

 

Track plan shown not set in stone - just a 'first stab' to see what fits but I think there's considerable potential there, in conjunction with the station itself, to accommodate most of the passenger trains shown in the timetable.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by LNER4479

[jwealleans]

12 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

There needs to be at least as many goods trains as passenger trains - they were, after all, what the railway was all about

 

This.

 

 

 

[LNER4479]

This what?

[LMS29]

On 05/12/2020 at 19:55, LNER4479 said:

Thanks for thoughts on timetabling (and other interesting comments).

 

First of all, here are the 'red lines':

• I do want to run a full 24 hours schedule / timetable to do the full layout justice.
• There needs to be at least as many goods trains as passenger trains - they were, afterall, what the railway was all about in those days.
• There will be several 'signature' trains, whose formation won't change (destination boards etc). 'The Royal Scot'; 'The Midday Scot'; 'The Thames-Clyde Express' at least

Thereafter, agree with most of comments, eg use of 'common' sets for different trains, use of cassettes, etc. I only want to compromise as much as absolutely need to. If it takes three months to get through the whole schedule, so what? Things will never look the same from the beginning to the end of any one running session, whether that's solo and just advancing things in my own time (a la Gilbert) or when having a running session with friends / invited guests. Whatever time of the day or night there'll be things going on. If not - just advance to when things are!

 

What HAS been occupying my mind though, partly brought about by comments above, is to take a more in-depth look at the fiddle yard arrangements. As a result have come up with this:

 

This zooms in on the area around Central station. As already stated, I've always intended to run the lines out of the back of the station - this in itself increases the practical length of trains from 7-8 coaches to the intended 11-12 coach length max. However, having looked at it further, I've now realised that I can actually do a full 180 to take the lines into a more decent set of hidden sidings / fiddle yard area. This works really well as the Central operator can just spin round to get at this area (in the absence of an assistant!)

 

The limiting factor here are the WCML running lines, falling from Shap summit to Carlisle Upperby (right-to-left). HOWEVER, these running lines are at a higher level so it might be possible to actually have some of the furthest away sidings underneath this. Whatever, those furthest away are for the 'fixed formation' sets which will only come out twice during the 24 hours; at the front is the cassette fiddling area for making up and breaking down trains as required.

 

As a bit of further explanation, at the station, platforms 2 and 3 are both departure and arrival roads. However, they will predominantly used for arrivals. Platform 4 is ONLY for departure, hence that'll the the principal platform for moving trains forward into, especially from the cassette fiddling area, hence the 'cassette advance' section of line which, technically speaking, isn't needed. But, with it, there is potential for the next express waiting to depart being in plat.4, with the next one almost buffered up behind it - and you can still be bringing something out of 2 or 3 into one of the fixed roads.

 

Track plan shown not set in stone - just a 'first stab' to see what fits but I think there's considerable potential there, in conjunction with the station itself, to accommodate most of the passenger trains shown in the timetable.

 

 Graham,

 

Just trying to get my mind round the operations involved. Are you moving the long trains from Platforms 2 or 3 into the long sidings using their loco or a station pilot? and are you storing loco with set trains or running off to the shed?

 

Tom

 

[LNER4479]

The idea is that all locos detach from trains and make their way to loco area via loco release road between plats. 3&4. Once in loco area, they'll either be turned and stabled for return working or be removed into loco storage racks beneath the station (arranged by shed code!)

 

Any stock for 'round the back' storage or cassette fiddling ... to be honest, I think it'll just be hand-balled there and back. Any realistic operation will be confined to the immediate station area. The station pilot should be kept fairly busy shunting sets between the platforms that DON'T need to go 'round the back'.

 

That's the plan at any rate. But we'll only properly get to know the best method of operation once it's all up and running!

Edited December 7, 2020 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

removed into loco storage racks beneath the station (arranged by shed code!)

Or possibly arranged according to the destination that the loco was purportedly going to?

[LNER4479]

27 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Or possibly arranged according to the destination that the loco was purportedly going to?

Same thing - in my mind at least.

 

Any 'local' locos, ie Carlisle allocated, are most likely to be on an out-and-back working so, by rights, they ought to turn round and head back to Carlisle within an eight hour timeframe. So I envisage them being berthed in the stabling roads by the turntable, with a designated return working.

 

A loco from 5A (Crewe North) - say - is however 'heading for home' when it arrives at Central station so it would not be seen again at least until the next day. So it goes in its 'home depot' rack - the next 5A loco on a similar working heading towards Carlisle ought to be a different loco from that particular rack.

 

Obviously will need a lot of locos to be fully effective. What a drag ...

 

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Same thing - in my mind at least.

 

Any 'local' locos, ie Carlisle allocated, are most likely to be on an out-and-back working so, by rights, they ought to turn round and head back to Carlisle within an eight hour timeframe. So I envisage them being berthed in the stabling roads by the turntable, with a designated return working.

 

A loco from 5A (Crewe North) - say - is however 'heading for home' when it arrives at Central station so it would not be seen again at least until the next day. So it goes in its 'home depot' rack - the next 5A loco on a similar working heading towards Carlisle ought to be a different loco from that particular rack.

 

Obviously will need a lot of locos to be fully effective. What a drag ...

 

We're nearly saying the same thing, Graham. What I had in mind was, for example, that a 5A loco heading to Glasgow would go on to a shelf marked as such (Polmadie?), not Crewe, and return from there later.

[LNER4479]

Indeed. My example was the more simple form.

 

Research shows that some trains changed locos at Carlisle whilst others didn't. Other through workings included 26A (Newton Heath) Jubilees working through to Polmadie (66A) on the Manchester-Glasgows, 20A (Holbeck) Royal Scots working through to Corkerhill (67A) on the 'Thames-Clyde Express' and so on. So the forward rostering at Central station will have to keep track accordingly. The Carlisle sheds will equally have to keep track of forrin' locos arriving into the station and ensure they get sent back 'home' on their booked workings.

 

It's this aspect of layout operation that interests me greatly so looking forward to replicating it in miniature form.