Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[Gibbo675]

10 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Good grief - I had no idea such things existed!

 

The RT268 sets look absolutely amazing. I would genuinely be interested in acquiring a set (or two) for use on the layout ... although they appear hard to come by and command a price to match.

 

Probably not for the current control panel but another box where there's a bit more room would be great.

Hi Graham,

 

There is a thread all about such instrumentation:

 

Gibbo.

 

[LNER4479]

Thanks - I actually found it a few hours earlier! Someone on there was making one using some pretty impressive CNC machining ... but then seems to have moved on to something else.

 

Certainly been an enlightening day!

[LNER4479]

Well, I promised some more running shots ...

 

The empty coal train (that you probably don't now remember departing Central) reaches Garsdale as the loaded coal train prepares departure in t'other direction.

 

Seen here rumbling through Bog Junction. It's acquired a few more wagons so is now a more appropriate length. Immediately behind is the new backscene piece, which hides the new control panel under construction. This train was the first to be driven on the layout using the new Gaugemaster controller here, now permanently wired in.

 

Snaking into the goods yard at Central, you can better appreciate here the full length of the train.

 

Did you see the flash of blue in the previous picture? To the uninitiated, this might seem out of place on the layout - however, there was a brief trial of some of Haymarket's almost new A1s working a WCML diagram from Polmadie shed (West Coast Postal south to Crewe and the Birmingham-Glasgow back north again). This Bachmann A1 was acquired nearly 20 years ago for son and heir, who's long since lost interest, so ... why not?

 

Seen here departing Central with the late 1950s Birmingham-Glasgow set, so not quite a perfect period match.

 

Still, it's a nice set of coaches, the work of Iain 92220 of this parish, the star vehicle being the 12-wheel Stanier restaurant car.

 

And away out onto the open fell. Most satisfyingly, the loco romped up the bank with this load - I thought those Bachmann A1s had a bit of a reputation for slipping? Anyhow, with a performance like this, she might just become a regular fixture on the motive power roster.

 

Of course, it was just too much to resist! Princess Alexandra was the next due on the Royal Scot in any case, so just had to be done ...

 

And there we go. A possible meeting, whilst 60161 and her two sisters were at 66A?

 

Let's have few more views of the Stanier machine (which appears to have lost most of its front screw coupling).

 

 

Focussing on the small cutting area down at the bottom end; I think the scenic team have done a smashing job in this area.

 

Meanwhile, time for a little bit more fun with that A1 ...

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by LNER4479

[Sandhole]

Just now, LNER4479 said:

Building post ... be done in a minute ...

Dublo 8F?

 

[LNER4479]

16 minutes ago, Sandhole said:

Dublo 8F?

 

Yes ... but running on a Comet chassis.

[LNER4479]

Whilst we had the A1 out ...

 

Here I've assembled a more representative train, based on a Treacy picture on the loco on Shap (with the Birmingham-Glasgow train). The orientation and aspect of the image was carefully considered ...

 

... to produce this. The work of Robmcg of this parish and originally posted on the Haymarket thread some weeks ago.

 

Or this version, which preserves more of the work of the scenic team in the lower right foreground but grafts on the rear half of the actual train in the original photo.

 

Opinions can be divided as to this approach to photo manipulation but it seems to work quite well in this instance.

 

Meanwhile, the Easter long weekend has seen some advancements elsewhere on the layout so stand by for a report on here shortly.

Edited April 6, 2021 by LNER4479

[Sandhole]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Yes ... but running on a Comet chassis.

Thank you.

[Tony Wright]

13 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Whilst we had the A1 out ...

 

Here I've assembled a more representative train, based on a Treacy picture on the loco on Shap (with the Birmingham-Glasgow train). The orientation and aspect of the image was carefully considered ...

 

... to produce this. The work of Robmcg of this parish and originally posted on the Haymarket thread some weeks ago.

 

Or this version, which preserves more of the work of the scenic team in the lower right foreground but grafts on the rear half of the actual train in the original photo.

 

Opinions can be divided as to this approach to photo manipulation but it seems to work quite well in this instance.

 

Meanwhile, the Easter long weekend has seen some advancements elsewhere on the layout so stand by for a report on here shortly.

Very impressive Graham,

 

I'm glad to see Rob has levelled-up the footplate underneath the cab and the soleplate on the tender. This is a major discrepancy on the Bachmann A1.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Sandhole]

On 30/01/2021 at 16:27, LNER4479 said:

Time now for a bit of a catch up on the loco stabling sidings at Central station, which have been quietly progressing in the background.

 

Here the remaining pieces of track from the original layout are being removed. In this case, it is not a like-for-like replacement so only some of this will be directly re-used. Nearest the camera is the grafted on piece of 12mm plywood as part of the previous widening works and this provides space for an additional road.

 

Here's the intended layout. Key to this is a Code 100 3-way insulated point I had in stock, so much of this 'new' trackwork will in fact be recycled Code 100. Not going to matter very much as this is still essentially a fiddle yard area. And if we end up doing mucky-grotty groundwork treatment then it won't show much anyway. What this DOES give me an opportunity for is to raid my '12 inches or less offcuts of Code 100' box and make good use of them. In some cases, I have fish-plated and soldered together some shorter lengths to make sections approx 12 inches long which is about the length for a loco isolating section.

 

Laying of the new trackwork in progress. Here, I'm installing simple push-pull linkages to the edge of the baseboard before laying over the top of them. I'm happy to have these points digitally operated(!) as they're right in front of you and it is a fiddle yard (of sorts). Life's too short.

 

Done! Well, at least the tracks are down. Wiring up still required but at least we can park locos for now. A little bit of an interim milestone as that's the last of the Central rebuilding (in terms of track reconditioning) needed at the present time. In fact, it's not a bad overall view of the whole station area from here almost all of which has been relaid since August last year.

 

Sir Bill can now take a spin on the turntable, having waited patiently since arriving with the Perth train. He did in fact once visit the real Manchester Central station for an exhibition there in 1961 I think it was. The turntable itself is wot I scratchbuilt all by myself nearly 25 years ago, all soldered up from brass strip. It's been waiting a long time to be properly finished off. With the future in mind, even back then, it was built to a scale 70ft size so it can handle Sir Bill and his siblings / cousins.

 

Happiness is a yard full of locos (of the Stanier persuasion). It'll accommodate a dozen locos quite comfortably.

 

All needs wiring up now ... but I think I'll be having a play every now and then to relieve the boredom of wielding the soldering iron.

 

 

I love the 'grafting on' bit.
I've done that with my turntable road coaling bay on my Manchester Oldham Road layout.
Train sets are a living thing.

[LNER4479]

So now a report on some exciting(-ish) new development steps:

 

So what's going on here then? Well ...

 

If we concentrate on the bottom left of the plan, you can see reference to 'Canal' (and Edinburgh). This will be the LNER/ER 'enclave' within an otherwise sea of LMR, and sits 120mm above 'grand junction' where - for now - wiring up is finished. One of Carlisle's many attractions (to me) is that it was one of the few spaces where LMR and ER pacifics rubbed shoulders, courtesy of the Waverley route, Carlisle Canal famously having its own allocated quartet of A3s, plus other visitors from Haymarket shed. Let's take a closer look.

 

This composite picture shows a possible / probable layout of Canal shed, sticking reasonably close to the prototype configuration. I've already installed a central spine of supports beneath here, but these boards are just propped in position for now for a first 'site survey'. The Waverley route mainline runs past along the bottom of the photo - note the curve in the bottom right and compare with the plan above. Canal Goods yard will actually be below this (in a reversal of what the plan shows) - the above setting out just concentrates on the depot and isn't in its actual intended position.

 

Most interesting of all is the roundhouse arrangement, which it looks as if I'll be able to include. This is based around a 50 foot turntable (originally a 42 foot) so only suitable for smaller locos - so Canal MPD is going to be greedy and have two turntables! When the NBR Atlantics arrived they were just too big so they then sacrificed part of the roundhouse arrangement and installed two straight through roads instead (where the K3 is sitting). So, all in all, an interesting arrangement and just crying out to be modelled ... even though the approach lines to the Edinburgh fiddle yard will cut across the top of it a bit!

 

Meanwhile ...

 

Over towards the other end of this side of the chapel, the lines from Canal converge here on their way into the north end of the station.

 

The Shap Wells section was always built with the intention that this part would tuck under the fell itself but this was the first time I've actually checked it out ... and it seems to work out just fine. The idea is that this 'tuck in' arrangement minimises encroachment into the operating area, which is of course shared with the Garsdale operator.

 

This should give a better idea. All the time I was cutting these scenery profile pieces for Shap Fell back in 2016-17, I was constantly referring to the (then undeclared!) master plan to ensure I had this clearance. But it was all in theory and (careful) measurement only at that stage.

If you refer to the grand plan above, you'll see two sets of double tracks, linked together by a pair of double junctions, representing Caldew junction (or 'Carlisle North' if you like). From the left you have the lines from Canal descending (outside the line of the backscene) and the WCML from the north rising (from Grand junction) under the fell to meet here. Beyond, the two sets of double track head for either Citadel station (passenger lines) or Dentonholme (goods avoiding lines).

These board will of course need to be removeable to allow Shap to be extracted for exhibitions, so will be non-scenic and I'll probably use Code 100 for robustness. But an interesting place operationally, especially with light engines between the shed and the station.

 

Any questions?(!)

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by LNER4479

[Compound2632]

Did not LNER pacifics also work to Carlisle from Newcastle, on filling-in turns? Or was that only back in the days of Worsdell and Raven atlantics?

[LNER4479]

I've yet to see any photographic or other evidence of that in the 1950s but happy to be pointed in the direction of any. Those services were dominated by the B1s it appears, most pictures and other references featuring that loco type. There were five allocated to Canal for these services, the depot also serving the ex-NER route in the 1950s following the closure  London Road shed (other than a servicing point). Some of the diagrams from the Newcastle end were turned over to the new Met-Camm DMUs from mid-50s onwards so I plan to have at least one of them for a bit of variety.

I'm sure there'll be an exception that proves the rule somewhere along the road but I'm always drawn to the typical rather than atypical. The use of the A3s on the Waverley services, including the loco change with a LMR loco on 'The Waverley' express itself, will do just fine for me.

Edited April 10, 2021 by LNER4479

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I've yet to see any photographic or other evidence of that in the 1950s

 

I must have been recalling something I'd read about an earlier period - pre WW2 perhaps.

[LNER4479]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I must have been recalling something I'd read about an earlier period - pre WW2 perhaps.

As I'm sure you'll already be aware, the other 'Carlisle' route that saw regular LNER pacific use was the Settle & Carlisle in 1960 when Holbeck had become a NEReg shed (code 55A) and a batch of A3s, displaced from the Newcastle area (by diesels), were transferred to the shed. It's right at the end of my time period but I might feature one just to illustrate this interesting period. 60038 'Firdaussi' stayed the longest, not the most attractive of the racehorse names, but it was well-photographed on the route at the time.

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

As I'm sure you'll already be aware, the other 'Carlisle' route that saw regular LNER pacific use was the Settle & Carlisle in 1960 when Holbeck had become a NEReg shed (code 55A) and a batch of A3s, displaced from the Newcastle area (by diesels), were transferred to the shed. It's right at the end of my time period but I might feature one just to illustrate this interesting period. 60038 'Firdaussi' stayed the longest, not the most attractive of the racehorse names, but it was well-photographed on the route at the time.

 

My only real experience of steam on the Settle & Carlisle was at Garsdale one August day in the late 90s - passing by between Sedburgh and Hawes, we thought we'd stop to investigate the crowd at the station. After about 10 minutes, a distant crow and plume of steam could be descried, then Flying Scotsman drifting in over Dandry Mire, to a stop for water. What impressed me most was how silent it all was (possibly the stiff wind helped) compared to the continuous throbbing of a 47 or even the hum of an 86. Until the safety valves lifted. That was deafening!

[drmditch]

Re: Any Questions

I'm sure you have planned access and lighting for your 'hidden tracks', but it would be useful to know your thinking on this.

One thing I have done, but not fully implemented, on my railway is to paint the woodwork white around and above my storage tracks. This has the advantage of sealing the wood and providing some light reflection. I did do this with the new structural elements, but omitted to re-work my re-used top-level boards. I just keep wanting to 'get on' and wire up tracks to get them operational!

 

Re: Large locomotives on the N&C.

There is a picture in G Whittle's 'Newcastle and Carlisle Railway' of a V2 arriving at Hexham from Carlisle in 1956. Presumably you will have V2s for the Waverley route?

I'm sure I have seen somewhere a picture of a Gresley Pacific on the N&C, but can't find it at the moment.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

15 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

So now a report on some exciting(-ish) new development steps:

 

So what's going on here then? Well ...

 

If we concentrate on the bottom left of the plan, you can see reference to 'Canal' (and Edinburgh). This will be the LNER/ER 'enclave' within an otherwise sea of LMR, and sits 120mm above 'grand junction' where - for now - wiring up is finished. One of Carlisle's many attractions (to me) is that it was one of the few spaces where LMR and ER pacifics rubbed shoulders, courtesy of the Waverley route, Carlisle Canal famously having its own allocated quartet of A3s, plus other visitors from Haymarket shed. Let's take a closer look.

 

This composite picture shows a possible / probable layout of Canal shed, sticking reasonably close to the prototype configuration. I've already installed a central spine of supports beneath here, but these boards are just propped in position for now for a first 'site survey'. The Waverley route mainline runs past along the bottom of the photo - note the curve in the bottom right and compare with the plan above. Canal Goods yard will actually be below this (in a reversal of what the plan shows) - the above setting out just concentrates on the depot and isn't in its actual intended position.

 

Most interesting of all is the roundhouse arrangement, which it looks as if I'll be able to include. This is based around a 50 foot turntable (originally a 42 foot) so only suitable for smaller locos - so Canal MPD is going to be greedy and have two turntables! When the NBR Atlantics arrived they were just too big so they then sacrificed part of the roundhouse arrangement and installed two straight through roads instead (where the K3 is sitting). So, all in all, an interesting arrangement and just crying out to be modelled ... even though the approach lines to the Edinburgh fiddle yard will cut across the top of it a bit!

 

Meanwhile ...

 

Over towards the other end of this side of the chapel, the lines from Canal converge here on their way into the north end of the station.

 

The Shap Wells section was always built with the intention that this part would tuck under the fell itself but this was the first time I've actually checked it out ... and it seems to work out just fine. The idea is that this 'tuck in' arrangement minimises encroachment into the operating area, which is of course shared with the Garsdale operator.

 

This should give a better idea. All the time I was cutting these scenery profile pieces for Shap Fell back in 2016-17, I was constantly referring to the (then undeclared!) master plan to ensure I had this clearance. But it was all in theory and (careful) measurement only at that stage.

If you refer to the grand plan above, you'll see two sets of double tracks, linked together by a pair of double junctions, representing Caldew junction (or 'Carlisle North' if you like). From the left you have the lines from Canal descending (outside the line of the backscene) and the WCML from the north rising (from Grand junction) under the fell to meet here. Beyond, the two sets of double track head for either Citadel station (passenger lines) or Dentonholme (goods avoiding lines).

These board will of course need to be removeable to allow Shap to be extracted for exhibitions, so will be non-scenic and I'll probably use Code 100 for robustness. But an interesting place operationally, especially with light engines between the shed and the station.

 

Any questions?(!)

 

Hi Graham

 

I do hope in these plans you have factored in a space for a mug and a plate for each operating position. I wouldn't want to see my hard work in keeping the operators refreshed with beverages and cake ultimately causing damage to the layout where one of the clumsy blighters puts her/his mug to close to the tracks and has the contents emptied all over the Thames Clyde Express. 

Edited April 10, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[Barry O]

@Clive Mortimore.. there is generally a place to park your mug.. a plate?? Cake/biscuits doesn't last long enough to reach a plate... or at least it doesn't with the Grantham ans Shap operators....

 

Baz

[Chamby]

@Clive Mortimore Nice one Clive.  I think you’ve just spawned a new branch of the hobby... Model Railway Ergonomics.  The creation of a high quality operator environment is often overlooked, and somewhere to put your mug of coffee and pasty should definitely be high on the list!

 

@Barry O A place for your plate depends on what star rating you are seeking for your operator environment.  No place for your plate, and you’ll only get a maximum three star rating, and that’s only if a well padded seat and good on-site catering facilities are also available!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by Chamby
Clarification

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, Chamby said:

Model Railway Ergonomics.  The creation of a high quality operator environment is often overlooked

It is often overlooked, because when it's done well you don't notice it. Aspects like gangway width, ability to see and reach things, ability to get around the layout without pain or discomfort and many more.

 

7 minutes ago, Chamby said:

somewhere to put your mug of coffee and pasty should definitely be high on the list!

Here I must disagree. Food and drink are not allowed in my railway room. I've seen too many accidents over the years and in any case greasy fingers and models railways don't go well together.

[Tony Wright]

On 09/04/2021 at 22:33, Compound2632 said:

Did not LNER pacifics also work to Carlisle from Newcastle, on filling-in turns? Or was that only back in the days of Worsdell and Raven atlantics?

They did Stephen,

 

I'll need to search through my books to find the pictures of 52A A4s at Citadel, having worked across from Newcastle. The route was, after all, RA9. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[dcordingley]

23 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

As I'm sure you'll already be aware, the other 'Carlisle' route that saw regular LNER pacific use was the Settle & Carlisle in 1960 when Holbeck had become a NEReg shed (code 55A) and a batch of A3s, displaced from the Newcastle area (by diesels), were transferred to the shed. It's right at the end of my time period but I might feature one just to illustrate this interesting period. 60038 'Firdaussi' stayed the longest, not the most attractive of the racehorse names, but it was well-photographed on the route at the time.

I think there's another route which, at least for a short period,  saw LNER pacifics reach Carlisle - the ex-Glasgow & South Western line. Around Summer 1964 my father and I were on a NW England "runabout" ticket, and travelled out to Annan from Carlisle. Annan was then a "frontier post", beyond which you couldn't legitimately travel on the runabout ticket without paying extra. We therefore alighted and awaited a return train to Carlisle, which duly arrived with either an A1 or A2 (can't now remember which) on the front. There were at least a couple of A2s at Polmadie at this time, but it was of course rather later than your period, Graham - and the loco certainly wasn't in early BR blue!

 

David C.

[LNER4479]

2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

They did Stephen,

 

I'll need to search through my books to find the pictures of 52A A4s at Citadel, having worked across from Newcastle. The route was, after all, RA9. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Be pleased to see them - would certainly add an interesting dimension. 

[LNER4479]

4 minutes ago, dcordingley said:

I think there's another route which, at least for a short period,  saw LNER pacifics reach Carlisle - the ex-Glasgow & South Western line. Around Summer 1964 my father and I were on a NW England "runabout" ticket, and travelled out to Annan from Carlisle. Annan was then a "frontier post", beyond which you couldn't legitimately travel on the runabout ticket without paying extra. We therefore alighted and awaited a return train to Carlisle, which duly arrived with either an A1 or A2 (can't now remember which) on the front. There were at least a couple of A2s at Polmadie at this time, but it was of course rather later than your period, Graham - and the loco certainly wasn't in early BR blue!

 

David C.

Thanks. I've also seen at least one picture of an A3 on Beattock...

 

But - as you allude - many of these things happened in the 1960s once locos started to be displaced (largely by diesels) from their time-honoured locations and ways of working.

 

I'm happy to countenance anything that could reasonably have been seen in the 1950s. My first love are the Stanier pacifics. By adopting a 1953-1960 timeframe, I can have them in blue, green and red, sloping or normal smokebox (for the ex-streamlined ones), early or late emblem, etc. Everything else has to fit around that - quite right too!

[Chamby]

7 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

...My first love are the Stanier pacifics. By adopting a 1953-1960 timeframe, I can have them in blue, green and red...

 

...and black!  

 

Wikipedia claims that City of London, City of Liverpool and City of St Albans all carried the attractive LMS lined black livery into 1953.  Others still carried BR lined black - in the case of City of Nottingham until 1955.  And uniquely, City of Bradford carried plain black until November 1954.