Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[LNER4479]

43 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

 

Interestingly the photograph taken from approximately Junction 38 of the M6.

 

Gibbo.

 

Wotsit doin' taking a banker with that flyweight load?! I dunno, what is the world coming to ...

 

My 'excuse' re my picture of Hamilton is that is was 1985 and we thought that the S&C was the best we were ever going to get. Little did we know ...

Edited April 17, 2021 by LNER4479

[Gibbo675]

Just now, LNER4479 said:

 

Wotsit doin' taking a banker with that flyweight load?! I dunno, what is the world coming to?

 

My 'excuse' re my picture of Hamilton is that is was 1985 and we thought that the S&C was the best we were ever going to get. Little did we know ...

I found out by being on the footplate of the first big lizzie over Shap, on the up line, since the end of steam, beat that folks !

[LNER4479]

Respect! Although I did have a mainline cab ride on '229 in 1996 (up Standedge, of all places)

 

But over Shap - yep, can't top that! Any photos?

[Gibbo675]

2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Respect! Although I did have a mainline cab ride on '229 in 1996 (up Standedge, of all places)

 

But over Shap - yep, can't top that! Any photos?

To busy helping Frank Santrian shovel coal to bother with all that, Les Jackson was driver.

 

If anyone looks closely at the drivers cab side sheet from that day you will note a small white rectangle, it was the company name patch ripped from my Riley & Son's overalls stuck to the cab sheet with grease.

 

Gibbo.

[LNER4479]

Latest building report...

 

Work continues with the Carlisle North trackbed pieces. Tucked beneath Shap Fell, this is the 'Caley' heading north (away from the camera. An eight foot (-ish) and five foot piece have been made up and now adjusting for levels, prior to fixing support pieces in place.

 

The all-important clearance test! Room to spare at the moment.

 

This view shows it all in relation to the visible part of the layout (including engine-less) Royal Scot and Coronation Scot on the bank!). You can see here how the pieces (6 in wide) are profiled to follow the line of the backscene. The whole idea here is to minimise encroachment into the operating well of what is essentially a non-scenic stretch, but still requires to be manned as the Carlisle North operating position (I think it was Jamie who bagged that one?)

 

With these boards in position (but still adjustable), now I'm adding the outer boards which form an incline up to the Carlisle Canal area, in the top left area of this photo.

 

And now with that piece of wood profiled and some lengths of Peco plonked down for first effect. Contrary to the original plan, Canal goods yard will now be on the right-hand side of the Waverley route running lines. The track third from left will be the goods reception road, which will then carry on alongside the running lines (heading towards the camera) to be the yard headshunt - on the level as the running lines descend. All of which is possible being outside the line of the backscene ...

 

But there's a problem! (as they always like to say to inject some over-stated drama in documentary programmes). A first, crude measurement of gradients comes out at ... well, I'll let you work it out from the evidence. A rise of 12mm in about 20 inches. A tad on the steep side. Yesterday morning was spent in head-scratching mode!

 

Fortunately, there's quite a bit of room for adjustment at this stage, chief amongst which is to start the grade separation as early as possible in the foot-wide junction board at the Carlisle end of all this (Caldew Junction, to be exact). So here we are - 10mm of grade separation achieved in 2 feet. Surprising what a difference that alone made to the calcs.

 

Achieved like so. Half depth cuts made in the timber battening piece already installed and a slight vertical curve installed with a suitable piece of 9mm ply firmly screwed along side.

 

The support for this top board now fitted to its final shape and orientation. It's all removeable however for when Shap goes out on the road.

 

With all this, I'm aiming for a less severe grade on the Caley line (current estimate in 1-in-150) as the trains are heavier and more difficult to get at, with a steeper grade on the Waverley as those trains are accessible and can be helped if necessary (and are shorter anyway). Current estimate is 1-in-100. If they can't make it up that then they'll be no hope for them on the Waverley proper as it will be a full bore 1-in-75 on there! So an operational stop at Canal to let any struggling trains take on a banker for the climb to Riccarton!

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by LNER4479

[JamieR4489]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

(I think it was Jamie who bagged that one?)

I think it was Edinburgh or Carlisle Canal; the only places on the layout you'll see proper engines

[LNER4479]

6 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said:

I think it was Edinburgh or Carlisle Canal; the only places on the layout you'll see proper engines

Ah, but two Jamie's...

 

You and JW can fight it out between yourselves for Carlisle Canal, Riccarton Junction and Edinburgh Waverley...

[JamieR4489]

Just now, LNER4479 said:

Ah, but two Jamie's...

Oops. I thought that might have been the case but wasn't sure

[robmcg]

All the mention of the Waverley and I had to dig out a picture I made of two Bachmann models, suitably edited, to bring back some of what were real railways.... 

 

 

I have another, with Britannia 70045 from memory, but my all time favourite A3 was 60093 'Coronach' as modelled by Hornby with A4 boiler and double chimney and no deflectors,   so plenty of room for me to get details and circumstances wrong!

 

I like your woodwork Graham, good stuff.

[Clive Mortimore]

7 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Latest building report...

 

Work continues with the Carlisle North trackbed pieces. Tucked beneath Shap Fell, this is the 'Caley' heading north (away from the camera. An eight foot (-ish) and five foot piece have been made up and now adjusting for levels, prior to fixing support pieces in place.

 

The all-important clearance test! Room to spare at the moment.

 

Hi Red Leader

 

We can all see that there is enough clearance for the trains, but what if one jumps off the track? There doesn't look enough room to get an adult's hand in to rerail the stock.

 

Can anyone supply a small grandchild who would be able to get their hand in the gap?

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

The all-important clearance test! Room to spare at the moment.

For class 87s too?

 

Serious question - I'm mulling over what to use for backscenes, some of which can't be fixed to a wall. I see you've used plywood - how much surface prep does it need before painting or do you just keep painting until the grain doesn't show any more? If I used MDF instead, does anyone know whether that would be stable enough to stay in a straight line?

 

Thanks.

[LNER4479]

7 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Red Leader

 

We can all see that there is enough clearance for the trains, but what if one jumps off the track? There doesn't look enough room to get an adult's hand in to rerail the stock.

 

Can anyone supply a small grandchild who would be able to get their hand in the gap?

Thanks Clive for your incisive query. Solutions in order of preference:

1) Lay the track really well

2) Drive the trains really carefully

3) Abandon Hills of the North and build a really simple BLT instead

 

Funnily enough, I was actually pondering your very question last night whilst pondering height adjustments (I've come across a slight .. ahem ... miscalculation). Retrieval of miscreant stock from under the fell itself is not a problem, hand only needs to get through a 3" gap; the issue is the rising incline of the Waverley route which gradually masks the 'Caley' route towards the far end.

 

However the big 'cop out' here is that all these boards are removable so if worst comes to the worst then the partial dismantlement procedure will be deployed. Inconvenient but not terminal.

[LNER4479]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Serious question - I'm mulling over what to use for backscenes, some of which can't be fixed to a wall. I see you've used plywood - how much surface prep does it need before painting or do you just keep painting until the grain doesn't show any more? If I used MDF instead, does anyone know whether that would be stable enough to stay in a straight line?

 

Thanks.

Couple of comments re use of ply backscenes on the Shap scene. 

 

Firstly,  as they're seen from the rear on these latest pix, you'll notice the various little tabs that locks 'em in place. These are screwed through from the front. Once done, then there's an exercise to use ordinary household filler to conceal screwheads (make sure screws are fully home such that the head has slightly dug into the surface of the ply so there is a slight depression for the filler to get in to)

 

Sand back to a smooth finish. Filler can be used to attend to any imperfections in the surface of the ply. Apply base coat of Matt white emulsion. Two coats, if necessary to fully key the surface.

 

Very light sand with fine grade paper. Apply light blue sky colour coat. Then paint on actual back scene 'scene', cloud effects, etc to taste.

 

I reckon, by that time, any grain effect is gone or at least won't be seen from 2-3 feet away which, in the case of a backscene, really is the minimum distance it will be viewed from.

 

No 'rocket science' in all that, just the usual maxim of 90% preparation; 10% actually applying paint. As you may have gathered by now, I'm a bit of a ply fan; not so much MDF.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Couple of comments re use of ply backscenes on the Shap scene. 

 

Firstly,  as they're seen from the rear on these latest pix, you'll notice the various little tabs that locks 'em in place. These are screwed through from the front. Once done, then there's an exercise to use ordinary household filler to conceal screwheads (make sure screws are fully home such that the head has slightly dug into the surface of the ply so there is a slight depression for the filler to get in to)

 

Sand back to a smooth finish. Filler can be used to attend to any imperfections in the surface of the ply. Apply base coat of Matt white emulsion. Two coats, if necessary to fully key the surface.

 

Very light sand with fine grade paper. Apply light blue sky colour coat. Then paint on actual back scene 'scene', cloud effects, etc to taste.

 

I reckon, by that time, any grain effect is gone or at least won't be seen from 2-3 feet away which, in the case of a backscene, really is the minimum distance it will be viewed from.

 

No 'rocket science' in all that, just the usual maxim of 90% preparation; 10% actually applying paint. As you may have gathered by now, I'm a bit of a ply fan; not so much MDF.

Thanks Graham. I prefer ply for this sort of application too. I should have asked about the thickness as well - does 9mm sound about right?

 

Mine will almost certainly be plain blue (Kodachrome sky blue from my childhood holidays in Cornwall) unless I can find a volunteer to tart them up a bit.

[Mallard60022]

May or may not be relevant but sometimes a printed/shopped scenlc banner using actual area photographs or very similar topography can be used. PMP I think it was used one of these years ago and had it actually made as a banner. There are different fabrics materials one can use.

Alternatively someone clever produces the shopped scenes on a material suitable to attach to ply or whatever. Andy Y did that I think with Black Country Blues was it? These can be printed on really large sheets as per Banners used at Shows and for advertising for example.

I investigated this for SOSJ  and it was a project the manufacturer was keen to try out and also using small test pieces on different materials to assess the sort of finish (such as hazy distant hills etc).

For a large layout that will not leave home this will be quite expensive but the quality is magnificent. 

For a layout or part that will leave home then versions are viable, as per the two mentioned above PMP and Andy Y .

P

[Mallard60022]

Actually I think Captain Kernow did something like this by taking actual Brent area pics for Robin Sweet of A Nod to Brent. Modern items can be shopped out etc. The landscape rarely changes that much.

P

[St Enodoc]

14 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

May or may not be relevant but sometimes a printed/shopped scenlc banner using actual area photographs or very similar topography can be used. PMP I think it was used one of these years ago and had it actually made as a banner. There are different fabrics materials one can use.

Alternatively someone clever produces the shopped scenes on a material suitable to attach to ply or whatever. Andy Y did that I think with Black Country Blues was it? These can be printed on really large sheets as per Banners used at Shows and for advertising for example.

I investigated this for SOSJ  and it was a project the manufacturer was keen to try out and also using small test pieces on different materials to assess the sort of finish (such as hazy distant hills etc).

For a large layout that will not leave home this will be quite expensive but the quality is magnificent. 

For a layout or part that will leave home then versions are viable, as per the two mentioned above PMP and Andy Y .

P

Thanks Phil but if I do go for a true backscene rather than a plain backdrop I'll be looking for something more impressionistic. A few fields, trees and china-clay tips would be plenty.

[jwealleans]

18 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

The all-important clearance test!

 

I think you may find a DJH C1 is the specified locomotive for that job.....

 

[LNER4479]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Graham. I prefer ply for this sort of application too. I should have asked about the thickness as well - does 9mm sound about right?

Ooh - 9mm sounds like a bit of overkill. The Shap ones and Grantham ones are 6mm which have been fine AND allow for a certain about of curving (not sure how important that is to you?)

[LNER4479]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I think you may find a DJH C1 is the specified locomotive for that job.....

 

... for which reason, the Grantham minimum structure height above rail is 58mm. If someone has built their loco at a scale height greater than 14' 6" then they deserve all the missing whistles they lose. 

 

Just to be sure, I'm using a 60mm height gauge in all this current work on Hills of the North.

Edited April 27, 2021 by LNER4479

[Chamby]

@St Enodoc   I am at a similar stage, re:backscene.  I have settled on 400mm high, and have bought in some 4mm ply which flexes quite nicely for curving the backscene round corners.  But then I don’t need exhibition-worthy robustness as it is a stay-at-home layout.

 

 

[jamie92208]

21 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

Oops. I thought that might have been the case but wasn't sure

Oops, the thought of 2 Jamie's is more than mortal man can face with equanimity to quote W S Gilbert.  Perhaps we could share the position for when I'm not available.

16 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Red Leader

 

We can all see that there is enough clearance for the trains, but what if one jumps off the track? There doesn't look enough room to get an adult's hand in to rerail the stock.

 

Can anyone supply a small grandchild who would be able to get their hand in the gap?

I can volunteer a nearly 2 yr old at the moment but whether you would trust her with precious stock is another matter.

13 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

For class 87s too?

 

Serious question - I'm mulling over what to use for backscenes, some of which can't be fixed to a wall. I see you've used plywood - how much surface prep does it need before painting or do you just keep painting until the grain doesn't show any more? If I used MDF instead, does anyone know whether that would be stable enough to stay in a straight line?

 

Thanks.

I used 3mm birch ply on Green Ayres which has taken paint very well and is very flexible.  A lot of the backscenes are curved when the layout is erected but go flat for storage and transport.  There has not been any problem with peeling or cracking paint. From memory they were just rubbed down and covered with a  neutral coat of emulsion before the scenes were painted by John Patrick. I was able to get the ply in 5' by 5' sheets from Arnold Lavers.

 

Jamie

Edited April 27, 2021 by jamie92208

[Jesse Sim]

On 27/04/2021 at 04:50, LNER4479 said:

Ah, but two Jamie's...

 

You and JW can fight it out between yourselves for Carlisle Canal, Riccarton Junction and Edinburgh Waverley...

Where does that leave a convict?

 

Tea and Coffee duties? 

[Clive Mortimore]

14 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Where does that leave a convict?

 

Tea and Coffee duties? 

There, see why we sent his forefathers to Botany Bay....trying to steal my Tea Boy job.

[LNER4479]

53 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Where does that leave a convict?

 

Tea and Coffee duties? 

Signalbox lad. That'll keep yer busy...