Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[LNER4479]

18 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

It is what I would call fairly advanced operating, as you really need to be aware of what is happening in several places at once, rather than just your own station. Having a whole layout run by people who work like that is about as good as operating a layout gets.

 

I got the distinct impression during my last visit to Gainsborough that most (all?) of the operators there were signalmen (sorry - signallers!) on a day off (busman's holiday).

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

It is one of those things, like DCC sound that you either like or you don't. If you like it, then have it but don't try to tell everybody else that just because you like it everybody should. You will never please everybody so you should just go with whatever pleases you.

Quite!

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Just to say, am listening and noting carefully - but I'm in an all day Teams meeting (audit) today until approx 4 o'clock, following which I'll provide some comments of my own in response to the many, interesting posts on here. Keep 'em coming - all ideas / suggestions welcome at this stage.

 

To (maybe?) stimulate further thoughts, the attached is my depiction of the communications links (telepgraph runs!) required for the full layout. I've only installed one of them at the moment!

 

Carlisle comms diagram.pdf 399.81 kB · 6 downloads

The BOG is going to be a busy place...

[LNER4479]

1 minute ago, St Enodoc said:

The BOG is going to be a busy place...

Aha! The penny's dropped ...

[St Enodoc]

27 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

On the big layout I used to operate regularly, I found that being able to hear the bells at other stations was a big help.

 

If I was at station C and I heard station A offering an express to station B, I got a little bit of advance notice to clear my main lines as I was going to be offered something with 4 bells very soon.

 

It would also tell me if the next operator was busy. For example, if I was at station C and had a train ready to send to station B but station B was exchanging bells with station A, I would wait until I heard 2-1 for train out of section before I called attention.

 

It may not be realistic but then again, neither are the distances between our stations and the time it takes a train to get from one to the next.

 

Other "clever sods" would deliberately call attention right when you were in the middle of another move. They would work with no consideration for the situation at other places. If you were not able to give 2-1 immediately, perhaps because you were having to hold a train at an outer home signal, they would send 6-2 (train a long time in section). So you had some people who used the system well and others who just liked winding other people up. I much preferred running it with the first lot! 

 

It is what I would call fairly advanced operating, as you really need to be aware of what is happening in several places at once, rather than just your own station. Having a whole layout run by people who work like that is about as good as operating a layout gets.

 

 

The Mousehaven Railway in Melbourne is rather similar although on a smaller scale. When I was travelling to Melbourne for work every week I was privileged to be invited to join in the regular Wednesday evening operating sessions:

 

https://modelrailmusings.weebly.com/layout---mousehaven.html

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Aha! The penny's dropped ...

There's no answer to that!

[Mallard60022]

My mention of discreet headphones/mikes like, what modern presenters use, was purely for comm's not hearing the Bells. Ring the Bells as you wish as it is rather comforting if not continuous, without long periods of relative 'quiet' with birdsong and ambient sound, but maybe the Phones are there for discussions with the fiddlers and assistants so you don't have to bellow across a crowded room. Such as, what loco is coming now that Duchess of Whatever has failed etc. Or, where's my tea? It can also be useful for an experienced Tutor to assist any newbies or some poor sod that has been roped in due to emergency. (Like me for example) .....Phil, can you rescue that Ivatt that has fallen over etc.

Just sayin for a friend, trains are fun.

P

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

I got the distinct impression during my last visit to Gainsborough that most (all?) of the operators there were signalmen (sorry - signallers!) on a day off (busman's holiday).

 

One of the big problems on a layout like that is finding a like minded large enough bunch of people who are a) capable of running a layout that way and b) want to do it on a regular basis. I know one chap who had a layout that would have been ideal for 5 or 6 operators but he mostly ran it by himself and found it very hard work and ultimately not very enjoyable.

 

Gainsborough is an interesting example as they do operate it regularly every week, so they gain the experience, confidence and skill to run a railway like that.

 

If you have a group of friends who would like to operate your layout, with varying levels of skill and ability, a "full on" operating system that requires everybody to have a certain skill level is maybe not a good idea.

 

I see a huge difference between my good operators on Buckingham and those who are keen and enjoy it but are not as good. It makes the difference between things really flowing, sometimes with little or no conversation and the stuttery, start/stop with long gaps while people work out what to do next and how to do it. I find that the best way for me to react is just to adapt my approach to suit the level of the others, so I don't mind one bit if things are a bit stilted. There is no point in me getting wound up about it.

 

I find that operating layouts is very much like any other branch of the hobby. You get a huge range of experience and ability. Some people really enjoy getting to grips with a complex and challenging layout and others won't want to go near it. 

[St Enodoc]

7 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

One of the big problems on a layout like that is finding a like minded large enough bunch of people who are a) capable of running a layout that way and b) want to do it on a regular basis. I know one chap who had a layout that would have been ideal for 5 or 6 operators but he mostly ran it by himself and found it very hard work and ultimately not very enjoyable.

 

Gainsborough is an interesting example as they do operate it regularly every week, so they gain the experience, confidence and skill to run a railway like that.

 

If you have a group of friends who would like to operate your layout, with varying levels of skill and ability, a "full on" operating system that requires everybody to have a certain skill level is maybe not a good idea.

 

I see a huge difference between my good operators on Buckingham and those who are keen and enjoy it but are not as good. It makes the difference between things really flowing, sometimes with little or no conversation and the stuttery, start/stop with long gaps while people work out what to do next and how to do it. I find that the best way for me to react is just to adapt my approach to suit the level of the others, so I don't mind one bit if things are a bit stilted. There is no point in me getting wound up about it.

 

I find that operating layouts is very much like any other branch of the hobby. You get a huge range of experience and ability. Some people really enjoy getting to grips with a complex and challenging layout and others won't want to go near it. 

That's very true, Tony. My operating team is growing as the layout grows, with quite distinct roles - yardmasters, drivers and signalmen. It's interesting that team members are gravitating to their preferred role. At the same time I'm also increasing the complexity - at the start we had a simple double-track oval with a small number of fiddle yard loops, then the junction station with temporary point switches, then the Modratec lever frame, then the uncouplers, then the signals and so on, hence people are also learning as they go along. We now have the start of the branch, which is adding another level of complexity (and, I think, interest). When the layout is complete it will be quite easy for up to 15 people to occupy themselves although we will still be able to run with half that number, albeit with the sequence taking longer to get through.

[t-b-g]

8 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

That's very true, Tony. My operating team is growing as the layout grows, with quite distinct roles - yardmasters, drivers and signalmen. It's interesting that team members are gravitating to their preferred role. At the same time I'm also increasing the complexity - at the start we had a simple double-track oval with a small number of fiddle yard loops, then the junction station with temporary point switches, then the Modratec lever frame, then the uncouplers, then the signals and so on, hence people are also learning as they go along. We now have the start of the branch, which is adding another level of complexity (and, I think, interest). When the layout is complete it will be quite easy for up to 15 people to occupy themselves although we will still be able to run with half that number, albeit with the sequence taking longer to get through.

 

That sounds very much like my kind of model railway!

[St Enodoc]

29 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

That sounds very much like my kind of model railway!

If/when you should find yourself down here, you would be more than welcome to come and have a go.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

My mention of discreet headphones/mikes like, what modern presenters use, was purely for comm's not hearing the Bells. Ring the Bells as you wish as it is rather comforting if not continuous, without long periods of relative 'quiet' with birdsong and ambient sound, but maybe the Phones are there for discussions with the fiddlers and assistants so you don't have to bellow across a crowded room. Such as, what loco is coming now that Duchess of Whatever has failed etc. Or, where's my tea? It can also be useful for an experienced Tutor to assist any newbies or some poor sod that has been roped in due to emergency. (Like me for example) .....Phil, can you rescue that Ivatt that has fallen over etc.

Just sayin for a friend, trains are fun.

P

Yo Duck

 

I only have one pair of hands, so make your own. The water is in the kettle, tea bag in the box, milk in the bottle and you need to pop next door and ask Mrs Jones very nicely for a cup of sugar, as we ran out last week.

[Mallard60022]

45 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Yo Duck

 

I only have one pair of hands, so make your own. The water is in the kettle, tea bag in the box, milk in the bottle and you need to pop next door and ask Mrs Jones very nicely for a cup of sugar, as we ran out last week.

My beak can't cope.

Quax

[LNER4479]

A few thoughts, now that my on-line meeting has finished, somewhat earlier than expected ...

 

14 hours ago, t-b-g said:

As for texting and wearing headsets, not for me thanks. It is like when I see layouts operated from mobile phones or a laptop. It may be appropriate for a layout set in the present day but just wasn't how it was done 60 or 70 years ago.

And I think I would have to agree with that. The layout is set in the 1950s and, for me, to operate is as it would have been in the 1950s is central to what I am trying to achieve. Plus there's the added expense and complexity of headsets and how that all works - not my cup of tea, at all.

 

6 hours ago, Chamby said:

My personal preference would be for a more silent, visual indicator, but perhaps augmented with the ability to transmit a mild electric shock to wake up those operators whose attention is wandering...

As you will see shortly, the prototype block instruments will feature a light, wired in simple parallel with the bell (buzzer actually for now). The achilles heel of a light only is, of course, if the operator at the receiving end is looking the other way at the time...

 

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Easy. Two buttons. Call attention rings a bell. When it is acknowledged, a second button flashes the lights. Or a two way switch marked bell/lights that allows one or the other to be activated. The same electricity could ring a bell or flash a light depending on which way it is set.

4 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Agreed, that’s the KISS solution.  I’m wondering how easy (or not) it would be to ‘detect’ the first call attention to ring the bell and then suppress the rest so that the operator didn’t need to use the right button.  
Paul.

Easy ... ish ... We're now starting to add complexity = additional expense = additional time to install = more to go wrong. I have the idea of using latched relays such that when 'call attention' is pressed the light stays on at the receiving instrument and is only extinguished when it is replied to. That much I can probably cope with(!)

 

5 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

... another method I haven't seen here yet was that used on my old club's large layout, Lazenby and Idledale - illuminated train describers. 

 

All designed and made by the club electrical guru Tony Lambert, a good friend, who you will see takes photos for the Consett South Pelaw thread.

And now we're into a different realm altogether.

I have a friendly electrical/electronics guru (Andrew, of 'Team Grantham' fame) who would love to set up something like that = lots more wiring = lots more expense = lots more time to install = lots more to go wrong. The fundamental problem there is that I am really an electrical numpty. A power supply, a switch, two wires running to a device (lamp, motor, electro-magnet) I can cope with. Any more and I'm increasingly lost. If the electrical guru isn't there and it goes wrong then it's me who has to fix it.

I let Andrew have his head with the Shap fiddle yard boards and Shap summit control system and it's all very elegant and works beautifully - but I'd be nervous taking it to a show without him there. Most of the time, with this home layout, he won't be there (he lives 300 miles away). So it's me on my own, or with some friends running a few trains. Only once in a while, I suspect, will we be at full capacity with the whole thing operating at full potential. So this is uppermost in my mind.

 

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Maybe the Phones are there for discussions with the fiddlers and assistants so you don't have to bellow across a crowded room. Such as, what loco is coming now that Duchess of Whatever has failed etc. Or, where's my tea?

Aha! Now we introduce the idea of 'Control', an idea I quite like. I once operated a multi-operator layout where there was the ill-defined but quite useful role of 'facilitator' whose job it indeed was to coordinate the whole thing, look ahead, talk to individual operating positions, etc. THIS is why signalboxes had telephones. Not to convey the routine 'train coming' messages but to speak to control (and control to speak to them) to sort out perturbations to the plan and such like. But whether we do that via phones or merely the simple expedient of someone literally wandering around between the different operating positions? There's even an aerial option, as the whole layout can be viewed from the balcony - big brother watching you!

 

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

I find that operating layouts is very much like any other branch of the hobby. You get a huge range of experience and ability. Some people really enjoy getting to grips with a complex and challenging layout and others won't want to go near it. 

Absolutely. But I'm hoping, not unlike Grantham, there will be operating positions to suit all tastes, from goods yards, loco depot, sleepy wayside stations (yes, Tom - Garsdale really is as simple as it gets ... sort of) through to the non-stop freneticism of Bog Junction, with its seven sets of block instruments and Central station with trains arriving and departing continuously.

 

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

You will never please everybody so you should just go with whatever pleases you.

 

Probably the most sensible thing posted on here yet!

Edited May 4, 2021 by LNER4479

[Mallard60022]

Control, yes that's the word I was searching for but failing to convey. I suspect the wandering around and speaking way is the best as this isn't an exhibition with fuss arses moaning about no trains in sight etc.

A clever sparks will provide '4mm' Bell 'sound' rather than Big Ben as I have heard from actual Signal Box Equipment on layouts at exhibitions. Proportional sound!

P

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Proportional sound!

 

Ah yes, at 76.2 times higher frequency than the prototype. That way only the dogs will be annoyed by it!

[Mallard60022]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Ah yes, at 76.2 times higher frequency than the prototype. That way only the dogs will be annoyed by it!

Not really, the sort of gentle and distant but actual sound, proportional to the size of the layout. What I am trying to say is that very loud Bells  won't 'fit the scene'. Creating a theatre effect you need 'proportional sound' not the actual full sound from the full size equipment as used on some layouts. 

I sometimes hear really great sound affects on the radio, such as Bird Song in the background. However, the sound is far too loud for the situation and distracts from the conversation (yes, The Archers is guilty.)

I give up now as this is too complicated for my poor brain cell.

Ar$£

[t-b-g]

I had wondered about a latching relay to go from bell to light mode. You could operate it from the "other end" so that the switch happens when the first bell is acknowledged.

 

A contact on the block instrument could cancel the relay when the instrument is changed from "train on line" to "line blocked" after the 2-1 train out of section is acknowledged.

[Flying Fox 34F]

My fellow railway modellers,

 

It has been interesting reading the last two pages on methods of Train Describing.  As someone who has been paid to Describe Trains for the last 22 years, (even as a MOM, you still end up working Signalboxes!), I will state right now, I’m partial to Block Bells.

I can put my hand up and admit I enjoy visiting Gainsborough and on three occasions ended up operating.  The joys of being recognised.  I’ve operated Leeds Central, Retford and even ended up at Kings Cross!  The last was entertaining, when you consider the number of different sets of Instruments, with all the shunt moves and operating the Bottom Loco.

I understand concerns about noise pollution in one room and Phil may have a point about Bells at the correct volume to suit the situation.  
I’m aware Peter Denny used a light to identify which bell had rung, particularly useful at Grandborough Junction, apparently.  

In a full size Signalbox, the bells would be doctored by the resident staff.  One bell would be left untouched, another would have card, paper or a rag jammed somewhere to alter the tone.  I’ve even seen bells with a saw cut to alter the sound.

At Signalling school, the old model railways would have all the Block Bells ringing merrily in one room, during a practical test.  A favourite of the Trainers would be to send a train flying to see if the Trainee’s could keep up!  The volunteers at the NRM, used to demonstrate this on the LYR set kept in the museum, pre Pandemic.

An alternative at the busier locations would be Train Describers, use a bell to Call Attention, then transmit the relevant Train Bell Code onto a small screen. Sounds complicated, but it could be very straight forward once a basic design is drawn up, perhaps using a Rotary switch and a Push to Make button?

Telephones are good, but a Circuit phone could be entertaining in other ways?  The older staff would comment about misusing the Circuit phone.  (In case you are not aware, this type of phone linked several Signalboxes together on one phone line). Signalman, would tell their neighbour, the trains yours, then carry on whatever conversation they were having at the time!!  This was fine until someone misheard and brought the train to a stand. 

Finally, headsets, hmmm.  I once watched Happisburgh at an exhibition and noted at least 6 operators using headsets.  The irony to me was that three of them were stood together and appeared to be talking to each other.

 

I will now get back in my cupboard and keep watch through keyhole for Graham decision(s).

 

Paul

[Tortuga]

2 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

In a full size Signalbox, the bells would be doctored by the resident staff.  One bell would be left untouched, another would have card, paper or a rag jammed somewhere to alter the tone.  I’ve even seen bells with a saw cut to alter the sound.

Would this be how the signalman would differentiate between the up and down line bells? I’ve a rough idea how the block instruments work, but I’ve been wondering how you’d tell the difference between a train entering your section on one line from another entering on another line.

(Sorry to barge in with a daft question!)

[Compound2632]

17 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Would this be how the signalman would differentiate between the up and down line bells?

 

 

[John76]

21 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Would this be how the signalman would differentiate between the up and down line bells? I’ve a rough idea how the block instruments work, but I’ve been wondering how you’d tell the difference between a train entering your section on one line from another entering on another line.

(Sorry to barge in with a daft question!)

Bells of different shapes and sizes

 

John

[LNER4479]

3 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I can put my hand up and admit I enjoy visiting Gainsborough and on three occasions ended up operating.  I’ve operated Leeds Central, Retford and even ended up at Kings Cross!  The last was entertaining, when you consider the number of different sets of Instruments,

 

Thanks, Paul.

 

It's this aspect (multiple instruments ringing, buzzing, flashing and just otherwise needing attention) that is exercising my mind the most. The worst - as already highlighted by our man in the Antipodes - is Bog Junction where up to 7 instruments might be demanding attention (although the chance of all 7 ringing at any one time is a bit remote). This is on account of Bog Junction serving two functions - legitimately signalling trains signalling trains through the Carlisle Goods avoiding lines (3 instruments apply) and fictionally acting as the funnel for trains in and out of the 'rest of the world' (4 instruments apply). This is where the idea of a latched light comes in, so if he's being called by more than one box simultaneously, he can deal with each in turn, the light staying lit as a reminder until he's attended to that route.

 

Not all seven will need and audible signal. He's in the same operating well as Upperby, so that's a simple conversation between the two, and he's in reasonable visual / audible reach of Central and Dentonholme - but instruments will still be needed nonetheless, in order to facilitate control handover between sections.

 

Well, that's the theory at this stage, at any rate ...

 

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

Footplate staff only have one bell (AWS), and that means Green, every other bell means Bu**er all.

 

manna

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Aha! Now we introduce the idea of 'Control', an idea I quite like. I once operated a multi-operator layout where there was the ill-defined but quite useful role of 'facilitator' whose job it indeed was to coordinate the whole thing, look ahead, talk to individual operating positions, etc. THIS is why signalboxes had telephones. Not to convey the routine 'train coming' messages but to speak to control (and control to speak to them) to sort out perturbations to the plan and such like. But whether we do that via phones or merely the simple expedient of someone literally wandering around between the different operating positions? There's even an aerial option, as the whole layout can be viewed from the balcony - big brother watching you!

One of the roles on the Mid-Cornwall Lines I didn't mention above is indeed the Fat Controller - usually me - who does exactly that, in between moving the train describer to the next page. As time goes by, I hope that the role will diminish to the extent that everyone can look after themselves. I have a cunning plan for the train describer too but until I've tried it I'm not saying...

 

12 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Central station with trains arriving and departing continuously.

Ooh yes please!