Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, manna said:

G'day Folks

 

Footplate staff only have one bell (AWS), and that means Green, every other bell means Bu**er all.

 

manna

Don't forget the fire bell!

[manna]

12 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Don't forget the fire bell!

That means you can go home early.

 

[Flying Fox 34F]

9 hours ago, Tortuga said:

Would this be how the signalman would differentiate between the up and down line bells? I’ve a rough idea how the block instruments work, but I’ve been wondering how you’d tell the difference between a train entering your section on one line from another entering on another line.

(Sorry to barge in with a daft question!)

This is not a daft question, you are quite correct.  Also the reply about the use of different shape bells is also correct, but as time passes equipment fails and it is no longer possible to obtain main variations.  The S&T department would replace a bell, then complaints would begin about the bells sounding the same.  The usual response is, we haven’t got anything else, so the Signalman, (Signaller) has to come up with their own solution.

 

Paul

[Flying Fox 34F]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks, Paul.

 

It's this aspect (multiple instruments ringing, buzzing, flashing and just otherwise needing attention) that is exercising my mind the most. The worst - as already highlighted by our man in the Antipodes - is Bog Junction where up to 7 instruments might be demanding attention (although the chance of all 7 ringing at any one time is a bit remote). This is on account of Bog Junction serving two functions - legitimately signalling trains signalling trains through the Carlisle Goods avoiding lines (3 instruments apply) and fictionally acting as the funnel for trains in and out of the 'rest of the world' (4 instruments apply). This is where the idea of a latched light comes in, so if he's being called by more than one box simultaneously, he can deal with each in turn, the light staying lit as a reminder until he's attended to that route.

 

Not all seven will need and audible signal. He's in the same operating well as Upperby, so that's a simple conversation between the two, and he's in reasonable visual / audible reach of Central and Dentonholme - but instruments will still be needed nonetheless, in order to facilitate control handover between sections.

 

Well, that's the theory at this stage, at any rate ...

 

Graham,

 

The BOG will literally be the hub of the entire layout then!  7 sets of bells and instruments will take a fair bit of space as well.  Do you have the space?

 

Paul

[Chamby]

I find myself wondering, will there be a bell code telling the operator...   BOG-off?  

 

[jwealleans]

Is there a bell code for 'I'd give that 5 minutes if I were you...?'

[LNER4479]

3 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Graham,

 

The BOG will literally be the hub of the entire layout then!  7 sets of bells and instruments will take a fair bit of space as well.  Do you have the space?

 

Paul

Oh, do try and keep up at the back there - it was all covered on page 69!

 

This is the equipment shelf, as an integral part of the Bog Junc control panel and backscene support.

 

It's designed to house 7 (and a half) miniature block instruments, of which the Garsdale one is the prototype.

 

Before you say it - yes, track diagram should be above instruments! However, for ergonomic reasons, I'm putting them as shown as they're more in the line of sight of the operator.

 

The 'and a half' is on account of there being two routes out of Central towards Bog, as the M&C goods traffic approaches on the bottom left single line of the track diagram. Not quite figured out how that will work in practice, I'll deal with it when the time comes but there is space on the shelf if required.

Edited May 5, 2021 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

33 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Is there a bell code for 'I'd give that 5 minutes if I were you...?'

Well ....

 

You could have: 6 - obstruction danger?

 

2-4 or 3-3 are for Blocking back

 

and 2-6-1 is something to do with passing an exceptional load ...

[2750Papyrus]

I think I'm suffering from tinnitus......

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

I think I'm suffering from tinnitus......

 

Once you've worked out which bell is which, you'll have to record the information on a grid for future reference. That's tintinnabulation.

[Flying Fox 34F]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Oh, do try and keep up at the back there - it was all covered on page 69!

 

This is the equipment shelf, as an integral part of the Bog Junc control panel and backscene support.

 

It's designed to house 7 (and a half) miniature block instruments, of which the Garsdale one is the prototype.

 

Before you say it - yes, track diagram should be above instruments! However, for ergonomic reasons, I'm putting them as shown as they're more in the line of sight of the operator.

 

The 'and a half' is on account of there being two routes out of Central towards Bog, as the M&C goods traffic approaches on the bottom left single line of the track diagram. Not quite figured out how that will work in practice, I'll deal with it when the time comes but there is space on the shelf if required.

It’s not a case of pay attention at the back.  I just missed the significance of 1 beat on the bell!!!!!!  I remember reading this post, but it just didn’t sink in.  I claim Professional Distraction at the moment.  I’m busy teaching New Colleagues. 

 

I can imagine 2-6-3 will be transmitted often, if Clive issues to much tea and biscuits!

 

Paul

[t-b-g]

The layout I learned to work block instruments on had a very simple device of a paperclip hanging on the arm of the bell striker. You would hear a bell, look up and whichever one had a paperclip that was still twitching was the one that had rung.

 

As somebody has mentioned, on Buckingham there is a very simple electrical circuit for the 4 bells at Grandborough Junction. It involves a capacitor which stores the juice. When a bell is rung, it discharges the capacitor and lights a LED, to indicate which one has rung.

 

I only have one instrument at the station rigged up so far so I haven't bothered to get the the lights working yet but the circuit is only the capacitor, two resistors, a diode and a LED. The circuit was published in MRJ No 60. Even I could build that circuit on a bit of pcb "Veroboard".

[Flying Fox 34F]

10 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Well ....

 

You could have: 6 - obstruction danger?

 

2-4 or 3-3 are for Blocking back

 

and 2-6-1 is something to do with passing an exceptional load ...

It’s starting to expand out from beyond Call Attention, 10 different codes for trains, Train Entering Section and Train Out of Section.

 

Currently, we have 64 codes to choose from and further back in time there were more.  I was looking through back issues of MRJ and fell on a debate about the use of codes approaching a diverging junction.  The LMS used a system of reversing the Train Class bell code for trains offered towards a junction Signalbox, to denote train to turn onto the Branch Line.  I can just see and hear it now at BOG.  All good clean fun you know.

 

Paul

Edited May 5, 2021 by Flying Fox 34F
Word missing, blame Tiredness

[t-b-g]

If somebody asked me to memorise 64 different codes before I could work their layout they would be looking for another operator.

 

Although I am a big fan of bells, I also firmly believe that just the basic call attention, train code, train entering section and train out of section are enough on a model.

 

Operating a model shouldn't be so complex that it stops people enjoying themselves.

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 minute ago, t-b-g said:

If somebody asked me to memorise 64 different codes before I could work their layout they would be looking for another operator.

 

Although I am a big fan of bells, I also firmly believe that just the basic call attention, train code, train entering section and train out of section are enough on a model.

 

Operating a model shouldn't be so complex that it stops people enjoying themselves.

 

What's wrong with shouting ding at each other as we often did on Narrow Road?!!

 

Mike.

[t-b-g]

9 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

What's wrong with shouting ding at each other as we often did on Narrow Road?!!

 

Mike.

 

I loved it but I don't think Ken ever approved.

 

There were a few punters watching who might have been on the point of calling for the men in the white coats too. Seeing us shouting "ding ding" up and down the layout may have set the image of the hobby back several decades. 

[New Haven Neil]

I relinquish any claim to Bog Jcn box!

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I loved it but I don't think Ken ever approved.

 

There were a few punters watching who might have been on the point of calling for the men in the white coats too. Seeing us shouting "ding ding" up and down the layout may have set the image of the hobby back several decades. 

A friend of mine uses bell codes on his terminus-to-fiddle-yard layout. The trouble is, they are mechanical bells of the type that you (used to) see in a shop to summon an assistant, so when you press the button the bell beneath your hand rings, not the one at the other end.

 

Try as I might, I can't see the point of that.

 

PS - I was led to believe that in finescale circles the men (other gender identities are available) in white coats are the layout operators...

Edited May 6, 2021 by St Enodoc

[Barry O]

@jwealleans.. a big red light means.. " stop right there until I tell you you can go".. the green light means " get on with it!"

simples..

 

this would cover most things including tea breaks, loo stops and bacon butty stops plus any illicit cake chomping moments..

 

baz

[t-b-g]

I am trying to remember the very simple light system that the late Chris Matthewman had on his layouts.

 

From memory, there were switches at each operating position, which simply changed a light from green to red at the other end. So if you were busy with something, you left your switch on red, which showed a red light at the next station.

 

As soon as you were finished and ready for the next move, you put the light to green. If your switch was set to green (giving a green light at the other end) and you had a green light (given by the switch at the other end) it meant that you could drive the next train from one to the other.

 

So if you were preparing a train to leave a station, you would get it ready to go. If your light was showing green, you would pull you points and signals and set your switch to green. That told the person at the other end that they could drive it. If your light was red, you would prepare the train and change the light at the next station to green but you would not pull the points and signals until your light went green.

 

I can't recall if each light was duplicated at either end or if the sender just relied on the position of the switch.

 

It was not as railwaylike as block bells but it was very effective, simple and cheap to install. You had to have a good sequence so that everybody knew which train was coming next, otherwise you could end up with the express in the goods yard.

 

It was basically both lights green means the train can go. Either light red or both lights red means don't go. Chris didn't have junctions or multiple routes but I don't see why it wouldn't work with various routes.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

58 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I am trying to remember the very simple light system that the late Chris Matthewman had on his layouts.

 

From memory, there were switches at each operating position, which simply changed a light from green to red at the other end. So if you were busy with something, you left your switch on red, which showed a red light at the next station.

 

As soon as you were finished and ready for the next move, you put the light to green. If your switch was set to green (giving a green light at the other end) and you had a green light (given by the switch at the other end) it meant that you could drive the next train from one to the other.

 

So if you were preparing a train to leave a station, you would get it ready to go. If your light was showing green, you would pull you points and signals and set your switch to green. That told the person at the other end that they could drive it. If your light was red, you would prepare the train and change the light at the next station to green but you would not pull the points and signals until your light went green.

 

I can't recall if each light was duplicated at either end or if the sender just relied on the position of the switch.

 

It was not as railwaylike as block bells but it was very effective, simple and cheap to install. You had to have a good sequence so that everybody knew which train was coming next, otherwise you could end up with the express in the goods yard.

 

It was basically both lights green means the train can go. Either light red or both lights red means don't go. Chris didn't have junctions or multiple routes but I don't see why it wouldn't work with various routes.

 

 

My system is similar, although with the switch only at the receiving signal box. The problem we've found is that if the receiver turns the lights red when the train arrives, then turns them green again ready for the next train but the sender doesn't notice the red in between, then the sender doesn't know whether it's the "old" green or a "new" green. Still thinking about that one.

[t-b-g]

49 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

My system is similar, although with the switch only at the receiving signal box. The problem we've found is that if the receiver turns the lights red when the train arrives, then turns them green again ready for the next train but the sender doesn't notice the red in between, then the sender doesn't know whether it's the "old" green or a "new" green. Still thinking about that one.

 

I only operated one of Chris Matthewman's layouts once, many years ago, for a short while so I can't remember how they did it but it would seem logical to me to turn the light back to red when a train set off, so it gave a "train on line" indication. So green only ever means "I am ready for the next train". Red always means "I am busy with something so you can't send me anything".

 

This is where the two way switches and lights work, as both operators need to know the the other one is ready.

 

No doubt somebody will find a flaw in the idea but I can't see one!

Edited May 6, 2021 by t-b-g

[St Enodoc]

28 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

turn the light back to red when a train set off

That might be the answer - thanks Tony.

[Flying Fox 34F]

20 hours ago, t-b-g said:

If somebody asked me to memorise 64 different codes before I could work their layout they would be looking for another operator.

 

Although I am a big fan of bells, I also firmly believe that just the basic call attention, train code, train entering section and train out of section are enough on a model.

 

Operating a model shouldn't be so complex that it stops people enjoying themselves.

Tony,

 

I was commenting about the Full Size Railway, not a model.  It’s Red Leader, he shouldn’t have been quoting Bell codes for Blocking Back inside and outside a Home Signal.   I just had to throw another comment in that’s all.

 

Paul

 

[t-b-g]

6 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Tony,

 

I was commenting about the Full Size Railway, not a model.  It’s Red Leader, he shouldn’t have been quoting Bell codes for Blocking Back inside and outside a Home Signal.   I just had to throw another comment in that’s all.

 

Paul

 

 

I did once operate a layout where the full set of bell codes was in use. Several moves required "blocking back" codes and there were some trains that had either banking engines or other things that needed more than just the basics.

 

It made my brain hurt.