Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[Barry O]

We did have a model of Hartford Junction in OO in the Leeds MRS but we had problems with the ply we used so it is no more.

 

David Johnson' model of Carlisle is in EM,  Many years ago Alistair Wright had a model (in EM) of part of the WCML- not sure what happened to it, biggest problem with the WCML is the size of the stations.

 

Baz

[St Enodoc]

We did have a model of Hartford Junction in OO in the Leeds MRS but we had problems with the ply we used so it is no more.

 

David Johnson' model of Carlisle is in EM,  Many years ago Alistair Wright had a model (in EM) of part of the WCML- not sure what happened to it, biggest problem with the WCML is the size of the stations.

 

Baz

And the rebuilt fiddle yards, from what Mr Judith Edge Kits told me.

[TerryD1471]

 

 

 

David Johnson' model of Carlisle is in EM,  Many years ago Alistair Wright had a model (in EM) of part of the WCML- not sure what happened to it, biggest problem with the WCML is the size of the stations.

 

Baz

 

 

 

I agree, most of the major stations are (were) huge, so choice of prototype is tricky. We are stuck with choosing betweem somewhere the size of Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth etc. or a small wayside station with little operational interest apart from watching the trains go by.

 

Having said that, a memory chord has just struck me; didn't a club model Oxenholme recently? Does anyone recall it? It's a prototype which has a junction and a fair bit of stopping traffic.

 

The point nevertheless is that there are few WCML locations which can be satisfactorily modelled which have enough operational interest. This probably explains why I took a long time to land on Hest Bank as a modellable prototype; it was a small wayside station, but the junction gives additional operating interest.

 

The Bingham club members also had the same idea and were in the course of building a model of Hest when sadly a fire in their clubroom destroyed it.

 

The point about size of fiddle yard is also very valid because many of the expresses loaded to 14-16 vehicles.

Edited April 21, 2018 by TerryD1471

[Clive Mortimore]

David Johnson' model of Carlisle is in EM,  Many years ago Alistair Wright had a model (in EM) of part of the WCML- not sure what happened to it, biggest problem with the WCML is the size of the stations.

 

Baz

 

 

 

I agree, most of the major stations are (were) huge, so choice of prototype is tricky. We are stuck with choosing betweem somewhere the size of Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth etc. or a small wayside station with little operational interest apart from watching the trains go by.

 

Having said that, a memory chord has just struck me; didn't a club model Oxenholme recently? Does anyone recall it? It's a prototype which has a junction and a fair bit of stopping traffic.

 

The point nevertheless is that there are few WCML locations which can be satisfactorily modelled which have enough operational interest. This probably explains why I took a long time to land on Hest Bank as a modellable prototype; it was a small wayside station, but the junction gives additional operating interest.

 

The Bingham club members also had the same idea and were in the course of building a model of Hest when sadly a fire in their clubroom destroyed it.

 

The point about size of fiddle yard is also very valid because many of the expresses loaded to 14-16 vehicles.

I am sure there must be an equivalent LNWR station to a small wayside station on the ECML like Little Bytham.

 

We as modellers seem to prefer our small wayside stations no matter how remote and little used. I am sure I have seen more models of Dent or ones based on Dent than passengers ever got on or off there.

[5 C]

I am sure there must be an equivalent LNWR station to a small wayside station on the ECML like Little Bytham.

 

We as modellers seem to prefer our small wayside stations no matter how remote and little used. I am sure I have seen more models of Dent or ones based on Dent than passengers ever got on or off there.

 

A couple of WCML wayside stations spring to mind and have been modelled. Rugeley Trent Valley was modelled by Crewe Grammar School and featured in the January 1977 edition of Model Railway Constructor. I believe the layout is still in existence, albeit in store, at least up until a couple of years ago.

 

The next station north on the line is Colwich. If I ever had the space I think it's worthy of consideration. The junction provides the opportunity to feature Stoke and Manchester trains as well as Scottish bound traffic. If modelling in LNWR or LMS days, there's the excuse to feature North Staffordshire Railway stock too. There's also an interesting mix of architecture. The original station building which became the station master's house, still exists today as a private dwelling. The later station building (demolished after it closed in 1958) was quite a unique design which almost resembled a Victorian school. Along with the very typical LNWR signal box between the tracks, there was a small goods yard and a rail link to the neighbouring Colwich Brick & Tile works.

 

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=13510

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=13490

 

It too has been modelled, by a member of the Sheffield O Gauge group, which in 7mm must be a huge undertaking in terms of space.

 

http://www.sheffieldogaugegroup.org.uk/colwich%20jct.htm

 

Andy

[jamie92208]

I've built a layout that features a bit of the WCML, Does this count?

 

OK I'll plead guilty now but it's a useful scenic break for the line towards Morecambe and is the bridge over the Midland lines on the north bank of the Lune.

 

Jamie

[TerryD1471]

A couple of WCML wayside stations spring to mind and have been modelled. Rugeley Trent Valley was modelled by Crewe Grammar School and featured in the January 1977 edition of Model Railway Constructor. I believe the layout is still in existence, albeit in store, at least up until a couple of years ago.

 

The next station north on the line is Colwich. If I ever had the space I think it's worthy of consideration. The junction provides the opportunity to feature Stoke and Manchester trains as well as Scottish bound traffic. If modelling in LNWR or LMS days, there's the excuse to feature North Staffordshire Railway stock too. There's also an interesting mix of architecture. The original station building which became the station master's house, still exists today as a private dwelling. The later station building (demolished after it closed in 1958) was quite a unique design which almost resembled a Victorian school. Along with the very typical LNWR signal box between the tracks, there was a small goods yard and a rail link to the neighbouring Colwich Brick & Tile works.

 

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=13510

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=13490

 

It too has been modelled, by a member of the Sheffield O Gauge group, which in 7mm must be a huge undertaking in terms of space.

 

http://www.sheffieldogaugegroup.org.uk/colwich%20jct.htm

 

Andy

Yes, I'd quite forgotten the Crewe Grammar School layout; it was very impressive since it was based in LNWR days and had a lot of interesting stock. Last time I saw it was in the Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Your point about Colwich is also a good one. It would have made a very interesting model and indeed at one point I was toying with the idea of trying to model it. I prepared plans for a layout, but space considerations coupled with the fact that the Stoke line veered away quite sharply (and I couldn't see how to deal with that) made me shelve it.

 

The other issue for me is that Stanier pacifics (which are the driving reasons behind my choice of a WCML location) were more common north of Crewe, so it pushed my choice of place northward.

 

Some members of our local railway society visited my layout a while back and one of them grumbled that there were "too many Duchesses"; I was pleased!

[LNER4479]

Yes, I'd quite forgotten the Crewe Grammar School layout; it was very impressive since it was based in LNWR days and had a lot of interesting stock. Last time I saw it was in the Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Your point about Colwich is also a good one. It would have made a very interesting model and indeed at one point I was toying with the idea of trying to model it. I prepared plans for a layout, but space considerations coupled with the fact that the Stoke line veered away quite sharply (and I couldn't see how to deal with that) made me shelve it.

 

The other issue for me is that Stanier pacifics (which are the driving reasons behind my choice of a WCML location) were more common north of Crewe, so it pushed my choice of place northward.

 

Some members of our local railway society visited my layout a while back and one of them grumbled that there were "too many Duchesses"; I was pleased!

Can't have too many Duchesses!! I have 5; only another 33 to go

[ikks]

Yes, I'd quite forgotten the Crewe Grammar School layout; it was very impressive since it was based in LNWR days and had a lot of interesting stock. Last time I saw it was in the Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Your point about Colwich is also a good one. It would have made a very interesting model and indeed at one point I was toying with the idea of trying to model it. I prepared plans for a layout, but space considerations coupled with the fact that the Stoke line veered away quite sharply (and I couldn't see how to deal with that) made me shelve it.

 

The other issue for me is that Stanier pacifics (which are the driving reasons behind my choice of a WCML location) were more common north of Crewe, so it pushed my choice of place northward.

 

Some members of our local railway society visited my layout a while back and one of them grumbled that there were "too many Duchesses"; I was pleased!

This layout is brilliant!; but Stanier Pacifics being more prevalent North of Crewe??, I copped most of them at

Tamworth  so  not sure about that comment unless you are talking about post 1961/2..............Anyway doesn't matter.......still looking forward to seeing you in Adelaide    

 

Mike

[TerryD1471]

This layout is brilliant!; but Stanier Pacifics being more prevalent North of Crewe??, I copped most of them at

Tamworth  so  not sure about that comment unless you are talking about post 1961/2..............Anyway doesn't matter.......still looking forward to seeing you in Adelaide    

 

Mike

Hello Mike

 

Don't confuse me with Graham LNER 4479 who is the real genius behind Shap. No, my layout is Hest Bank, just a bit further south.

 

The reason behind my comment that the pacifics were more common north of Crewe was that Birmingham-Scottish workings always changed locos at Crewe, a 4-6-0 coming off in favour of a Stanier pacific and vice versa. I spotted at Crewe, Stafford, Lichfield, Nuneaton and Tamworth in 1959-60 and the many engine changes at Crewe inclined me to this view.

 

Best wishes

 

Terry

[APOLLO]

There were several small stations on the WCML just north & south of Wigan North Western (which itself would make an interesting though large layout).

 

To  the south was Bamfurlong and a bit further south Golborne, both 4 track and very similar to each other.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bamfurlong/index.shtml

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/golborne_south/

 

Going north out of Wigan NW it's 2 tracks and a steep gradient up to Standish / Coppull. Boars Head had an interesting junction / station / signalbox in a cutting.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/boars_head/index.shtml

 

Standish also had an interesting station and junction. The Whelley loop line joined the main line here via a flying junction, through the small station then 4 tracks commenced northwards. Standish is not on the disused stations site though. Today the 4 track commences further north just south of Euxton.

 

Brit15

 

 

I don't think any of the above have been modeled.

 

Brit15

Edited April 23, 2018 by APOLLO

[Northroader]

For a small station on the WCML which would make a good mainline location for modellers I’d nominate Milford and Brockton, just south of Stafford. Double track rather than quad, level crossing one end and overbridge the other, with the ornate Shugborough tunnel just to the south. A couple of goods sidings and the station building standard LNWR ‘kit build’. The north side of the line there’s the river Sow, and the Staffs and Worcs canal in water meadows, and to the south there’s the northern edge of Cannock Chase, sandstone hills and fir trees, so it’s known as a beauty spot and way back there were excursions run there.

[tractionman]

For a small station on the WCML which would make a good mainline location for modellers I’d nominate Milford and Brockton, just south of Stafford. Double track rather than quad, level crossing one end and overbridge the other, with the ornate Shugborough tunnel just to the south. A couple of goods sidings and the station building standard LNWR ‘kit build’. The north side of the line there’s the river Sow, and the Staffs and Worcs canal in water meadows, and to the south there’s the northern edge of Cannock Chase, sandstone hills and fir trees, so it’s known as a beauty spot and way back there were excursions run there.

 

I was eyeing up Norton Bridge yesterday, this is a cracking period shot from the 1930s:

 

https://goo.gl/images/XMivi5

 

and another one just pre-electrification

 

https://goo.gl/images/uQXqzt

 

cheers,

 

Keith

[5 C]

For a small station on the WCML which would make a good mainline location for modellers I’d nominate Milford and Brockton, just south of Stafford. Double track rather than quad, level crossing one end and overbridge the other, with the ornate Shugborough tunnel just to the south. A couple of goods sidings and the station building standard LNWR ‘kit build’. The north side of the line there’s the river Sow, and the Staffs and Worcs canal in water meadows, and to the south there’s the northern edge of Cannock Chase, sandstone hills and fir trees, so it’s known as a beauty spot and way back there were excursions run there.

 

 

Another good shout. Next stop after Rugeley and Colwich. The Trent Valley Line proving a popular potential subject.

 

Staffordshire Past Track to the rescue again with a couple of useful views:

 

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=2333

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=25132

 

Andy

[LNER4479]

 

The reason behind my comment that the pacifics were more common north of Crewe was that Birmingham-Scottish workings always changed locos at Crewe, a 4-6-0 coming off in favour of a Stanier pacific and vice versa. I spotted at Crewe, Stafford, Lichfield, Nuneaton and Tamworth in 1959-60 and the many engine changes at Crewe inclined me to this view.

 

Best wishes

 

Terry

Another factor here is that much of the best work of the Duchesses was done at night time when observers generally weren't about - specifically the heavy sleeper trains. My father has his spotting books from the southern end of the WCML and they bear testimony to him staying out till about 9:30 some nights, especially to see the parade of Duchesses at that time. Night after night they'd come through, always rostered to the sleeper services, just nicely getting into their stride after the slow start up Camden bank. So they were about at the southern end of the route but often used on these overnight services.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

At least the LNER had enough Pacific's to run in daylight 

 

manna

[stewartingram]

G'Day Folks

 

At least the LNER had enough Pacific's to run in daylight 

 

manna

 

And of course, weren't ashamed to!

 

Stewart

[TerryD1471]

G'Day Folks

 

At least the LNER had enough Pacific's to run in daylight 

 

manna

That raises a question in my mind; how did the cash strapped LNER obtain capital sanction to build 64 class 8 pacifics (peppercorn A1s & A2s) when they already had 34 A4s and 25 A2 variants? Not to mention the 77 A3s and 184 V2s.

 

I know this getting off topic; perhaps I'll start a new thread elsewhere.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

The LNER were allowed to borrow money from the government, to create jobs, (pre war) after the war, the government gave (loaned) the LNER money for rebuilding the railway, the LMS spent there money on 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's, the LNER spent there money on Pacific's and 2-6-2's. Well that's my take on it.

 

manna

[Denbridge]

That raises a question in my mind; how did the cash strapped LNER obtain capital sanction to build 64 class 8 pacifics (peppercorn A1s & A2s) when they already had 34 A4s and 25 A2 variants? Not to mention the 77 A3s and 184 V2s.

 

I know this getting off topic; perhaps I'll start a new thread elsewhere.

far more plausible than the permission to build so many Bulleid pacifics on the Southern.

[Mallard60022]

far more plausible than the permission to build so many Bulleid pacifics on the Southern.

Nah!    Bulleid didn't really get 'permission' and they were all mixed traffic designs as you know 

Phil

[Denbridge]

Nah!    Bulleid didn't really get 'permission' and they were all mixed traffic designs as you know  ;)yeah. Of course they were sorely needed to spend much of their lives shuttling about on 3 coach trains

Phil

[TerryD1471]

Graham, you were kind enough to post a picture of 3 Stanier pacifics on my Hest Bank thread ( and very gorgeous they are!) but it left me with an unanswered question. What was the layout on which they were pictured? It looked like a reasonably sized station, but apart from a brief thought about Carlisle (which I realised almost straightaway was wrong) I cannot identify it. Please put me out of my quandary!

 

Terry D

[TerryD1471]

Another factor here is that much of the best work of the Duchesses was done at night time when observers generally weren't about - specifically the heavy sleeper trains. My father has his spotting books from the southern end of the WCML and they bear testimony to him staying out till about 9:30 some nights, especially to see the parade of Duchesses at that time. Night after night they'd come through, always rostered to the sleeper services, just nicely getting into their stride after the slow start up Camden bank. So they were about at the southern end of the route but often used on these overnight services.

Yes, indeed, Graham, but I think that points up the fact that the West Coast had insufficient class 8 power and they relied heavily on the class 7 4-6-0s to shoulder much of the work. The transfer of 4 A1s to Polmadie in the early 50s suggests that there was some "joined up thinking" going on in the newly unified BR, but this didn't last that long and I can't help feeling that there should have been more of these sensible transfers taking place throughout the system.

[Denbridge]

Yes, indeed, Graham, but I think that points up the fact that the West Coast had insufficient class 8 power and they relied heavily on the class 7 4-6-0s to shoulder much of the work. The transfer of 4 A1s to Polmadie in the early 50s suggests that there was some "joined up thinking" going on in the newly unified BR, but this didn't last that long and I can't help feeling that there should have been more of these sensible transfers taking place throughout the system.

the LMS was plagued throughout with insufficient top end motive power. The Scots were magnificent but at times were thrashed doing jobs that in reality only suited to the class 8 pacifics.