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Hills of the North - The Last Great Project


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At the risk of appearing a touch self-promoting, this piece of video uploaded earlier today is the most comprehensive posted so far and shows the banker dropping off very well - although, rather embarrassingly, in the background, there is an attack of the gremlins going on. We appear at 34:08

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiXAfSzy44A

 

If I had got to Warley this year, I think I may just have spent all the time looking at this and Chapel-en-le-Frith.

 

As it is, I shall certainly be watching this video a few times.

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attachicon.gifShap 13.jpg

 

Just a taster. 

 

I managed to get 21 different shots on Sunday morning. Many thanks for all the help.

a Legomanbiffo fitted English Electric Type 4 no less... and no one commented on it being too noisy, The other loco is Grahams' de-Crostid 8.5F...Lovely photograph.

 

Baz

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There was a CO and some Tks. 

Am I correct in believing that no open (or vestibule) Porthole stock was built and they were all compartment coaches? That is until the BSK on the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway gets finished as a BSO.

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Am I correct in believing that no open (or vestibule) Porthole stock was built and they were all compartment coaches? That is until the BSK on the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway gets finished as a BSO.

D2160 FO: "........the only 'porthole' Vestibule coaches of any class and the only LMS pattern vestibules to be built after 1947" (from LMS Coaches Jenkinson/ Essery).

I believe this is correct but I am no LMS expert.

Phil

A question: did any trains run non-stop London to Carlise?

Loco change at Crewe? 

Phil?

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A question: did any trains run non-stop London to Carlise?

I can't remember which service it was but I have read about Non stops from London to Glasgow that stopped alongside Kingmoor shed for a crew change.

 

Jamie

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D2160 FO: "........the only 'porthole' Vestibule coaches of any class and the only LMS pattern vestibules to be built after 1947" (from LMS Coaces Jenkinson/ Essery).

I believe this is correct but I am no LMS expert.

Phil

Loco change at Crewe? 

Phil?

Thank you, I stand corrected.

 

At the risk of being wrong again (!) I don't think there were any through non-stop services between Euston and Carlisle in 1967, engine changes taking place at Crewe being the major factor in this.

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Thank you, I stand corrected.

 

At the risk of being wrong again (!) I don't think there were any through non-stop services between Euston and Carlisle in 1967, engine changes taking place at Crewe being the major factor in this.

 

O S Nock's 'Steam railways in Retrospect' has two marvellous descriptions of Duchesses going over Shap in the early 60's.   Instead of his usual technical description he specifically wrote more about the emotional side of riding big and superb steam up the bank as it might have been the last time he managed a steam footplate ride over Shap.  It's the best chapter in the book in my opinion.

 

Jamie

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O S Nock's 'Steam railways in Retrospect' has two marvellous descriptions of Duchesses going over Shap in the early 60's.   Instead of his usual technical description he specifically wrote more about the emotional side of riding big and superb steam up the bank as it might have been the last time he managed a steam footplate ride over Shap.  It's the best chapter in the book in my opinion.

 

Jamie

When the Duchesses and Corries (are they the same thing?) had gone ('64?) then maybe loco's had to be changed at Crewe? I've no idea but the big Pacifics did have large tenders with coal pushers I believe?

Phil

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Thank you, I stand corrected.

 

At the risk of being wrong again (!) I don't think there were any through non-stop services between Euston and Carlisle in 1967, engine changes taking place at Crewe being the major factor in this.

Not a problem. I just happened to have the book close to hand. Now I've got distracted into looking through it for about the 100th time; lovely pictures, don't understand most of the word things. 

Interestingly I have just turned to Page 87 and there is a pic of a converted Sleeper 3rd (D1709). It became a D2195 Party Car/Cafeteria Car. I believe Red leader may have one of the Sleeper 3rds coming to Carlisle (it is parked in a siding at Seaton Junction at the moment). Knowing him I suspect a Party Car will be something he just can not resist. 

I see that the conversions were all done at Eastleigh, as were conversions of a number of Gresleys to S.R. Cafeteria Cars circa 1955 (I did know about those). You/I certainly learn something new every day. I have not noted this short section in the book before.

Phil

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O S Nock's 'Steam railways in Retrospect' has two marvellous descriptions of Duchesses going over Shap in the early 60's.   Instead of his usual technical description he specifically wrote more about the emotional side of riding big and superb steam up the bank as it might have been the last time he managed a steam footplate ride over Shap.  It's the best chapter in the book in my opinion.

 

Jamie

I had a conversion with a Carlisle driver about going up Shap. He said on a spring morning driving a Duchess up Shap was full of the romance of steam, on a cold frosty morning "Give me a class 87, heater on full blast and topping at 100mph." :locomotive: :locomotive:

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Just by chance I have Tim Chapman's new book about the last days of steam as required reading in the smallest room at the moment.  It had a list of all trains seen at Shap summit one day in 67.   Without exception they were all diesel hauled with a mixture of EE and Brush type 4's.  However a lot of the freight was steam hauled.   As far as I remember the loco changes at Crewe and later Preston lasted till the whole line was electrified.

 

Jamie

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Just by chance I have Tim Chapman's new book about the last days of steam as required reading in the smallest room at the moment.  It had a list of all trains seen at Shap summit one day in 67.   Without exception they were all diesel hauled with a mixture of EE and Brush type 4's.  However a lot of the freight was steam hauled.   As far as I remember the loco changes at Crewe and later Preston lasted till the whole line was electrified.

 

Jamie

 

Just to add a correction to the above.  I browsed the book further this morning and though all the weekday passenger services seem to have been diesel hauled there was certainly steam on a lot of the summer Saturday services in August 67. This included services such as the Dundee Blackpool trains that were diesel hauled to Carlisle then steam southwards.

 

Jamie

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A question: did any trains run non-stop London to Carlisle?

 

I can't remember which service it was but I have read about Non stops from London to Glasgow that stopped alongside Kingmoor shed for a crew change.

 

At the risk of being wrong again (!) I don't think there were any through non-stop services between Euston and Carlisle in 1967, engine changes taking place at Crewe being the major factor in this.

The 'Caledonian' lightweight express was introduced in 1957 and was indeed non-stop; as alluded to, it stopped at Carlisle for a crew change. At times, this was in the station but at others, alongside the depot. It heralded a change from the time-honoured service pattern of lengthy and relatively infrequent services to more frequent, lighter services, more like we have now. The Duchesses thus enjoyed a late swansong on such services, with some notable performances being recorded. On one occasion, undoubtedly specially-staged, the southbound Caledonian was given a clear road south of Carlisle and arrived in London 37 minutes ahead of time! 46244 was the loco involved. Definitely one for a future when we display the layout with a wider timespan

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Just to add a correction to the above.  I browsed the book further this morning and though all the weekday passenger services seem to have been diesel hauled there was certainly steam on a lot of the summer Saturday services in August 67. This included services such as the Dundee Blackpool trains that were diesel hauled to Carlisle then steam southwards.

 

Jamie

My research yielded any number of pictures of steam working SO Euston-Glasgow relief services and the holiday specials. Clearly, Saturday was the main day when folks descended on Shap Fell to do their photography (mid-week being a lot more difficult to get time off compared to nowadays). At times it must have been a carnival atmosphere.

 

We selected 7 passenger trains to run at the show, as follows:

  1. Royal Scot - all blue/grey rake - D400 or Brush 4
  2. Birmingham-Glasgow - mixed blue/grey & maroon - Brush 4
  3. Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow - mixed blue/grey & maroon - EE Type 4 or Brush 4
  4. Edinburgh/Dundee-Blackpool SO - all maroon, some ER stock - EE type 4 (this could actually be steam but we didn't have quite enough Black 5s to go round!!)
  5. Euston-Glasgow relief SO - Brit or Black 5 
  6. Warrington-Carlisle local service - all maroon - Black 5
  7. Charter set (2 alternating formations) - 4498 or 7029

 

Most, if not all, feature in the various videos that have been posted. I think that was fairly representative of 1967 and based on much research, studying of photos. Rakes 1,2,3 & 7 (with 4498) had catering provision (correctly) included.

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My research yielded any number of pictures of steam working SO Euston-Glasgow relief services and the holiday specials. Clearly, Saturday was the main day when folks descended on Shap Fell to do their photography (mid-week being a lot more difficult to get time off compared to nowadays). At times it must have been a carnival atmosphere.

 

We selected 7 passenger trains to run at the show, as follows:

  1. Royal Scot - all blue/grey rake - D400 or Brush 4
  2. Birmingham-Glasgow - mixed blue/grey & maroon - Brush 4
  3. Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow - mixed blue/grey & maroon - EE Type 4 or Brush 4
  4. Edinburgh/Dundee-Blackpool SO - all maroon, some ER stock - EE type 4 (this could actually be steam but we didn't have quite enough Black 5s to go round!!)
  5. Euston-Glasgow relief SO - Brit or Black 5 
  6. Warrington-Carlisle local service - all maroon - Black 5
  7. Charter set (2 alternating formations) - 4498 or 7029

 

Most, if not all, feature in the various videos that have been posted. I think that was fairly representative of 1967 and based on much research, studying of photos. Rakes 1,2,3 & 7 (with 4498) had catering provision (correctly) included.

 

Thanks for that Graham.   I certainly remember seeing 7029 and 4498 on charters coming through Settle that year.   The mixed rakes of maroon/blue grey are also spot on.  I seem to remember the 15 guinea special being quite varied in livery though I've never actually printed my negatives of it at Blea Moor.  If you are interested the book that I'm referring to is a Book Law Publications book No 96, by Tim Chapman and he obviously kept detailed spotting notes on all his trips.

 

I look forward to seeing further progress.   When you get to the S & C part for 67 you'll definitely have to include the early  D400's on the Crewe test train, all 19 maroon coaches of it.

 

Jamie

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D400 entered service in October 1967 and deliveries were completed with D449 in November 1968. They were test run up to Carlisle usually hauling 12 or more tatty old maroon coaches - a mix of LMS & BR Mk 1's. The headcode was 1T60. I saw this train many times as the WCML ran alongside Wigan Grammar School which I left in July 1969. HS4000 Kestrel was seen once on this working around 1968, caused quite a stir in the geography class - the teacher was NOT amused !!

 

D400'ers were certainly present in quantity on the WCML during the last week of steam in August 68 - but by then apart from 70013 the Brits had gone.

 

Here are D441 & 442 at Crewe works in 1968, fresh from "The Vulcan".

 

post-6884-0-60075200-1358620543.jpg

 

Later on they were magnificent machines when run in pairs thundering through Wigan on the "Royal Scot" before we went electric in 1973 / 4.

 

Brit15

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D400 entered service in October 1967 and deliveries were completed with D449 in November 1968. They were test run up to Carlisle usually hauling 12 or more tatty old maroon coaches - a mix of LMS & BR Mk 1's. The headcode was 1T60. I saw this train many times as the WCML ran alongside Wigan Grammar School which I left in July 1969. HS4000 Kestrel was seen once on this working around 1968, caused quite a stir in the geography class - the teacher was NOT amused !!

 

D400'ers were certainly present in quantity on the WCML during the last week of steam in August 68 - but by then apart from 70013 the Brits had gone.

 

Here are D441 & 442 at Crewe works in 1968, fresh from "The Vulcan".

 

post-6884-0-60075200-1358620543.jpg

 

Later on they were magnificent machines when run in pairs thundering through Wigan on the "Royal Scot" before we went electric in 1973 / 4.

 

Brit15

From memory we only saw the first few on test through Settle. D400 to D404 but I may have missed seeing some. The test train certainly ran to 19 coaches on many occasions.   One day the Peak on the Waverley broke down up the line so the D400 was detached from the test train at Settle and sent north to rescue the failed Peak and it's train.  That left the 19 coach rake at Settle and it was too big for any of the sidings.   A small BR Standard mogul then spent the day shuffling the long coaching rake backwards and forwards over the crossover at Settle to allow other trains to pass.   It was many hours before something arrived to take the test train away.   You could hear the uphill start from all over the valley.

 

Jamie

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D400 entered service in October 1967 and deliveries were completed with D449 in November 1968. They were test run up to Carlisle usually hauling 12 or more tatty old maroon coaches - a mix of LMS & BR Mk 1's. The headcode was 1T60. I saw this train many times as the WCML ran alongside Wigan Grammar School which I left in July 1969. HS4000 Kestrel was seen once on this working around 1968, caused quite a stir in the geography class - the teacher was NOT amused !!

 

D400'ers were certainly present in quantity on the WCML during the last week of steam in August 68 - but by then apart from 70013 the Brits had gone.

 

Here are D441 & 442 at Crewe works in 1968, fresh from "The Vulcan".

 

post-6884-0-60075200-1358620543.jpg

 

Later on they were magnificent machines when run in pairs thundering through Wigan on the "Royal Scot" before we went electric in 1973 / 4.

 

Brit15

In 1986 they were pretty magnificent (but singly) thundering past Long Ditton on the WOEML expresses.

Proper job loco's IMO.

Phil

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My research yielded any number of pictures of steam working SO Euston-Glasgow relief services and the holiday specials. Clearly, Saturday was the main day when folks descended on Shap Fell to do their photography (mid-week being a lot more difficult to get time off compared to nowadays). At times it must have been a carnival atmosphere.

 

We selected 7 passenger trains to run at the show, as follows:

  1. Royal Scot - all blue/grey rake - D400 or Brush 4
  2. Birmingham-Glasgow - mixed blue/grey & maroon - Brush 4
  3. Manchester/Liverpool-Glasgow - mixed blue/grey & maroon - EE Type 4 or Brush 4
  4. Edinburgh/Dundee-Blackpool SO - all maroon, some ER stock - EE type 4 (this could actually be steam but we didn't have quite enough Black 5s to go round!!)
  5. Euston-Glasgow relief SO - Brit or Black 5 
  6. Warrington-Carlisle local service - all maroon - Black 5
  7. Charter set (2 alternating formations) - 4498 or 7029

 

Most, if not all, feature in the various videos that have been posted. I think that was fairly representative of 1967 and based on much research, studying of photos. Rakes 1,2,3 & 7 (with 4498) had catering provision (correctly) included.

Should've nicked one from Chapel...

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  • LNER4479 changed the title to Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

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