LNER4479 Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) "I saw 46100 this evening at sunny 36E. It is quite small but very neat." Ooh - a Scot! Larvly. Don't be fooled by its dainty looks; that thing can shift, if it were given its head. Size for size, that boiler is one of the most efficient steam raisers around. Looking forward to seeing one going up 1:76 Shap Edited December 7, 2017 by LNER4479 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 7, 2017 Author Share Posted December 7, 2017 Hi I presume that there's a reason why either 1930s or 40s wouldn't work (putting aside the constraint of assembling the stock)? Sets of crimson lake plus the other type of streamliners would be quite something to watch. David Hi No qualms about doing 1930's - just the small matter of providing the stock! Another of my research books was 'Treacy's LMS', by Jenkinson & Whitehouse - any number of marvellous pre-war pics of Shap in there. I believe that the additional colour light signals were installed in the mid-1930's, so that dates it slightly as we have the one at Shap Wells. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 Looking forward to seeing one going up 1:76 Shap Be careful! Apparently 46115 demolishes Shap... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXSt8ULDeoE 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2017 I believe that the additional colour light signals were installed in the mid-1930's, so that dates it slightly as we have the one at Shap Wells. Shap Summit box was replaced by the latter structure in 1925/6, Shap Wells IBS into use 1942 - controlled from Scout Green, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manna Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) G'Day Folks Two things I noticed on the video, surely it's going down hill ?? and is that a Ex 'Clacton' power car on the back ?? LOL. manna PS, I know, you can go off of people. Edited December 8, 2017 by manna Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 Shap Wells IBS into use 1942 - controlled from Scout Green, Thanks. Sounds like a war time capacity improvement. It looks, from the Treacy pics, as if the Shap summit down distant signal might have been replaced with a colour light pre-war? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted December 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 8, 2017 "I saw 46100 this evening at sunny 36E. It is quite small but very neat." Ooh - a Scot! Larvly. Don't be fooled by its dainty looks; that thing can shift, if it were given its head. Size for size, that boiler is one of the most efficient steam raisers around. Looking forward to seeing one going up 1:76 Shap We were hoping that, as it was 12 down, it would be straight through 36E. Sadly there were two overtakes required so it was sidelined. Substituting for the Duchess and will be around again on the 20th at 36E and is around over the next couple of weekends through Chesterfield/Barrow Hill etc to York. I was impressed by UTube footagae of Scots over Shap a few pages back. P 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted December 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2017 Re the era shift and stock requirements. You could maybe take a leaf out of the Tony Wright "rentacrowd" method for obtaining alternative stock, as he will be doing for the backdating of LB. I assume you've got friends?!!!!! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted December 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 8, 2017 Mike there are no worries about different stock for the layout as Red Leader has lots of friends with suitable stock. Biggest problem would be getting it on and off the layout during a show.. but I may have a cunning idea to share with the Layoutmeister... Baz 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS29 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Baz, Looking forward to hearing your cunning plan and enjoyed reading the views shared about the era (s) that should be depict next so would be interested in hearing Red Leaders view on the era (s) we will be modelling at out next show. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted December 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 8, 2017 Thanks. Sounds like a war time capacity improvement. It looks, from the Treacy pics, as if the Shap summit down distant signal might have been replaced with a colour light pre-war? Looks like that's the case, an isolated striped post fitted with a 3 lamp head with normal yellow / green in the bottom 2 and an auxiliary yellow at the top in case of filament failure in the main aspect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 Baz, Looking forward to hearing your cunning plan and enjoyed reading the views shared about the era (s) that should be depict next so would be interested in hearing Red Leaders view on the era (s) we will be modelling at out next show. Tom Well, Tom - the answer to that is simple. The next show will be the Leeds 2018 show (which Barry knows all about!) and we will exhibit the layout exactly as we did at Warley to fit in with the 50 years since the end of steam theme for the show (even though we'll be technically a year out!). It's the show after that (Hartlepool 2019) when we can start to try something different. Based on the experience of Warley, once the short term 'to do' list has been worked through (hopefully in time for Leeds), then I think I will 'bite the bullet' and spend some time in 2019 building a purpose-designed fiddle yard for Shap (for those that hadn't realised, we made use of the Grantham fiddle yard at Warley). This will facilitate much easier operation and allow a wider range of stock to be on the layout at any one time which then lends itself to my idea of a continuously rolling time frame. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LNER4479 Posted December 10, 2017 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) OK, next instalment in the construction story... March 2016 With Grantham safely back from its appearance at the Nottingham show, but remaining packed away for the time being, the floor of the chapel is free to spread out the lining paper and work on the alignment. Although the Shap Wells scene is nominally straight, I wanted to avoid the 'parallel with the baseboard edge' syndrome if possible. After a day spent drawing, re-drawing, etc, this is what I ended up with. The 'classic' spot at Shap Wells is on a very gradual left hand bend (in the uphill direction), transitioning onto a straight as it passes the camera position. In the background, I had to be aware that the entrance onto the scenic section is from an impossibly tight (3 foot radius) right hand bend and try and blend this in accordingly and so a slight reverse curve arrangement was adopted. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't as, once built, it jars on the eye a little to me. It would have been better to have lengthened the gradual curve and link it to the bottom end with a shorter straight piece ... The trackbed (120mm / 30 foot wide) was cut out and used as a template to cut the 9mm trackbed pieces, each 5 feet long A little bit of jigsaw-y pokery later ... Why 5 foot? Well, the outline plan for Carlisle allows for a 20 foot section of Shap bank to be included and 4 x 5 = 20(!) Meaning that 2 boards pair together for transportation, hence two sets of boards paired together to go in the van. 5 foot is a fair old length to contend with in terms of sag and twist but I was confident in using the 4" supporting piece of ply underneath to create a rigid beam (see below). Here are two of the end pieces being cut simultaneously (to ensure good alignment of adjacent boards). Not immediately apparent but some fundamental planning calculations were required here. Reverting again to the outline plan for Carlisle, the Shap bank section is nominally 2 feet wide. If it goes wider, then it starts to encroach on the operating space; also, there is another length of running line (the northern approaches to Carlisle) behind it, operated from the other side. However, I realised that these latter running lines are at a lower level than the Shap scene; also, given that I wanted the fell to rise up towards the backscene at the rear of the boards, then there was room to include a 6 inch overhang over the (eventual) other running lines - this will become more apparent in the next pic. That therefore gained me 6 inches. To that, I added a further 3 inches 'compromise' encroachment into the (eventual) Carlisle operating space to arrive at a board width of 33 inches. Then(!), I decided on positioning the centre line of the trackbed 15 inches from the front and, thus, 18 inches from the back. In order to somehow represent the vastness of the fell, I felt that I needed as much space as possible at the rear of the layout. This also gave the profile of the boards a fighting chance of rising up sufficiently to clear the other running lines. Meanwhile, the test piece had shown that, at the maximum height of the embankment, quite a lot of lateral distance is taken up by the embankment slope before you even get to the fields below the line so I needed a bit of space at the front of the boards. All in all, quite a bit to think about and, as ever, compromise is required. Some of the above might now become apparent with the basic board framework assembled. Each board takes the majority of strength from this structure, an assembly of 4 pieces of 9mm plywood. Lightweight, but very strong. The concept of the 6 inch overhang at the back should now be more apparent. Also the lateral length taken up by the embankment. The angle of the embankment slope is increased on the rear side, as this won't be seen from normal viewing angles and thus allows for the fell to start rising up just that bit more earlier. Note the hole and associated increased depth of the vertical ply piece - that's where the road to the Shap Wells hotel goes. Early days, of course, but this shot gave encouragement as to the eventual effect. Next time - stock considerations ... Edited December 10, 2017 by LNER4479 23 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drmditch Posted December 10, 2017 Share Posted December 10, 2017 Please excuse what may be an ignorant question from someone whose major interests lie on the eastern side of the hills. I do admire the final development of the three cylinder 4-6-0 represented by the re-built Royal Scots. Were any ever painted LMS red (or should that be maroon)? (That is apart from the re-built high-pressure engine, which I don't think is quite as good-looking.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted December 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2017 No, only 6170 painted red. The other rebuilds were initially lined black before BR green. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 Please excuse what may be an ignorant question from someone whose major interests lie on the eastern side of the hills. I do admire the final development of the three cylinder 4-6-0 represented by the re-built Royal Scots. Were any ever painted LMS red (or should that be maroon)? (That is apart from the re-built high-pressure engine, which I don't think is quite as good-looking.) Mike is - of course - correct re only 6170 being painted LMS red (maroon!) in rebuilt form. Before someone else does, I'll wade in with the technicality that, upon preservation, No.6100 'Royal Scot' was indeed painted LMS red for display at Billy Butlin's Skegness holiday camp. I remember seeing her thus in the early 1970's. In fact she kept this livery for over 40 years in the end, throughout her time at Bressingham and was originally going to be returned to mainline operation in the livery (she did, briefly, steam on a couple of preserved lines in the red livery) but, since coming under the wing of the LSL Crewe stable, she is now in her 'correct' BR green. There was a version of the original Mainline Royal Scot model in 1980 produced as No.6100 in red - I know because I once owned one! In fact, I still have it but it now has a green body. Nice locos, Scots and very much part of the Shap story, being the most capable XP loco around before the pacifics came along. They will feature on the model in due course. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2017 Maroon indeed .....the correct name for the colour was Crimson Lake 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted December 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2017 Mike is - of course - correct re only 6170 being painted LMS red (maroon!) in rebuilt form. Before someone else does, I'll wade in with the technicality that, upon preservation, No.6100 'Royal Scot' was indeed painted LMS red for display at Billy Butlin's Skegness holiday camp. I remember seeing her thus in the early 1970's. In fact she kept this livery for over 40 years in the end, throughout her time at Bressingham and was originally going to be returned to mainline operation in the livery (she did, briefly, steam on a couple of preserved lines in the red livery) but, since coming under the wing of the LSL Crewe stable, she is now in her 'correct' BR green. There was a version of the original Mainline Royal Scot model in 1980 produced as No.6100 in red - I know because I once owned one! In fact, I still have it but it now has a green body. Nice locos, Scots and very much part of the Shap story, being the most capable XP loco around before the pacifics came along. They will feature on the model in due course. Having enjoyed watching many of the videos featured on this thread the Scot seems to have a great sounding exhaust with a deep bass beat that the 2 and 4 cylinder locos don't seem to have. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 10, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2017 Second thing wasn't 6170 a bit of a one off? After Fury blew herself up and took up space in Derby paint shop a new taper boiler was built for it, a number 2. This was unique and not interchangeable with a 2A boiler as fitted to the other 6XP locomotives of the Jubilee, Patriot and Royal Scot classes. So was it a Royal Scot or in a class of its own? Anyone got a model of British Legion? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 10, 2017 Author Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) Second thing wasn't 6170 a bit of a one off? After Fury blew herself up and took up space in Derby paint shop a new taper boiler was built for it, a number 2. This was unique and not interchangeable with a 2A boiler as fitted to the other 6XP locomotives of the Jubilee, Patriot and Royal Scot classes. So was it a Royal Scot or in a class of its own? Anyone got a model of British Legion? Correct - with a few clarifications. 6170's boiler can be thought of as the prototype for the larger LMS 4-6-0 boiler, the type 2A (a magnificent steam raiser, married with a double chimney). All the other Royal Scots were rebuilt with the 2A but only two Jubilees (5735 & 5736) were fitted with it, the first two 4-6-0s to be so fitted. 18 of the Patriots were also fitted with it, these rebuildings continuing spasmodically until the mid-1950s. The rest of the Jubilees kept their smaller, Type 3 boilers (various detail differences) to the end, as did the original Patriots their parallel boilers. The ex-LMS 3-cyl 4-6-0s thus fell into two power classifications: those fitted with the 2A boiler were 6Ps (7Ps in BR days); all but two of the Jubilees and the original Patriots were 5XPs (6P in BR days). It was these two classifications which were of rather more importance to the operating department. David Jenkinson was rather fond of 6170 and had models of it in both 4mm and 7mm scale. Edited December 10, 2017 by LNER4479 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted December 11, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2017 (edited) Mike is - of course - correct re only 6170 being painted LMS red (maroon!) in rebuilt form. Before someone else does, I'll wade in with the technicality that, upon preservation, No.6100 'Royal Scot' was indeed painted LMS red for display at Billy Butlin's Skegness holiday camp. I remember seeing her thus in the early 1970's. In fact she kept this livery for over 40 years in the end, throughout her time at Bressingham and was originally going to be returned to mainline operation in the livery (she did, briefly, steam on a couple of preserved lines in the red livery) but, since coming under the wing of the LSL Crewe stable, she is now in her 'correct' BR green. There was a version of the original Mainline Royal Scot model in 1980 produced as No.6100 in red - I know because I once owned one! In fact, I still have it but it now has a green body. Nice locos, Scots and very much part of the Shap story, being the most capable XP loco around before the pacifics came along. They will feature on the model in due course. Scots are rather like Castles, with one less cylinder of course, in their capabilities. Versatile and powerful. Pity I saw so few of them (the Scots that is) when they were in the real world. Phil Edited December 11, 2017 by Mallard60022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhar Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 6170 has been modelled by 92220 here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65335-motive-power-for-camden-shed/page-8&do=findComment&comment=2387601 Iain's not entirely happy with the smokebox dimensions as I recall but it looks the part. I preferred it in its initial guise, with the raked steampipes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Second thing wasn't 6170 a bit of a one off? After Fury blew herself up and took up space in Derby paint shop a new taper boiler was built for it, a number 2. This was unique and not interchangeable with a 2A boiler as fitted to the other 6XP locomotives of the Jubilee, Patriot and Royal Scot classes. So was it a Royal Scot or in a class of its own? Anyone got a model of British Legion? 6170 has been modelled by 92220 here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65335-motive-power-for-camden-shed/page-8&do=findComment&comment=2387601 Iain's not entirely happy with the smokebox dimensions as I recall but it looks the part. I preferred it in its initial guise, with the raked steampipes. Indeed, while I really enjoyed what was a fairly major operation to make it, I’m not completely happy with it. Now I can build Comet frames that run better, I’ll have another go at some point, getting the smoke box and top feed pipes correct. If it’s any good, I’m hoping it might get a guest run out on the early 60’s version. Iain 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2017 Last night I was thumbing through a 1943 edition of British Locomotive Types, and it has a diagram of British Legion calling it a Royal Scot Class. I think I have answered my own question is it a Royal Scot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted December 13, 2017 Author Share Posted December 13, 2017 If it’s any good, I’m hoping it might get a guest run out on the early 60’s version. Iain Pleasure will be all mine - bring it as it is, looks not half bad in its existing guise. I can correct the lean of the eccentric crank, if you like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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