Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[LNER4479]

Last night I was thumbing through a 1943 edition of British Locomotive Types, and it has a diagram of British Legion calling it a Royal Scot Class. I think I have answered my own question is it a Royal Scot.

Yes, it's a Royal Scot all right, in much the same way that turbomotive 6202 was a Princess Royal.

[Mad McCann]

Having enjoyed watching many of the videos featured on this thread the Scot seems to have a great sounding exhaust with a deep bass beat that the 2 and 4 cylinder locos don't seem to have.

 

Jamie

 

Having witnessed 46100 storming Falahill (having travelled on the day's previous train too) I can fully attest to the bass-heavy exhaust of these most magnificent of steam locos. They really are floorshakers! :-)

Tribute once again to the inherent superiority of the LMS. ;-)

 

D4

[Mallard60022]

Having witnessed 46100 storming Falahill (having travelled on the day's previous train too) I can fully attest to the bass-heavy exhaust of these most magnificent of steam locos. They really are floorshakers! :-) Totally agree

Tribute once again to the inherent superiority of the LMS. ;-) Have to disagree  

 

D4 = V. 

[92220]

Pleasure will be all mine - bring it as it is, looks not half bad in its existing guise. I can correct the lean of the eccentric crank, if you like.

Thanks, very kind, though you won’t need to when I’ve built a proper set of frames......! That Hornby chassis works ok now I’ve modified it but I wouldn’t trust it not to jump its gears.

 

Iain

[LNER4479]

Time for another instalment

 

Continuing with the construction of the baseboard frames, here are all four from the straight 20ft scenic length basically assembled. The trackbed template was a useful check to ensure there was no unintended kink in the alignment at the baseboard joints (can't be doing with kinky track...). The off cuts from either side of the template were retained at this stage for sketching out the structure of the adjacent scenery.

 

As per Grantham, legs are hinged and integral to each board. The length of each had to carefully calculated and 'measured twice; cut once' to ensure the resulting height and gradient was as planned.

 

Here is the first 'king' board, a little wobbly at this stage without the adjacent boards to brace it.

 

The all important gradient check, with an appropriate thickness of wood under one end of the spirit level. At 5 feet in length, I calculated that the rise needed to be 17mm per board to achieve the compromise gradient of 1-in-90. Looks pretty c0ck on to me!

 

3 out of the 4 boards with their legs (yet to have their bracing added), with the last one temporarily propped up for now - it will ultimately be supported by the fiddle yard link board.

 

More of a dramatic angle. That fourth coach really isn't banana-shaped like that; how does the camera manage to make it look like that?!

 

Now with a controller temporarily attached with croc clips for some initial trials. The Jubilee wouldn't look at that 8 coach train so the banker will definitely being doing some work and not just there for show. Although I have since got the Jub better balanced and it will haul a little more now. The Hornby Black 5 made a slightly better fist of it.

 

Next time: track alignment and the first vestiges of scenery...

Edited December 20, 2017 by LNER4479

[St Enodoc]

Looks pretty c0ck on to me!

Now there's a phrase I haven't heard for a year or three...

[Clearwater]

A quick question. How will you be dealing with variable floor levels in exhibition halls?

 

Davud

[Clive Mortimore]

A quick question. How will you be dealing with variable floor levels in exhibition halls?

 

Davud

Hi David

 

I can't answer for the Shap team but when Hanging Hill went out to shows it wasn't the hall floor but my lack of woodworking skills that lead me to travel with a set of packing pieces. I did get warned that when I done the Chatham show in the old ship sheds the floor was very uneven......no packing was required.

[LNER4479]

A quick question. How will you be dealing with variable floor levels in exhibition halls?

 

Davud

The 3 foot spirit level will be a constant travelling companion, together with a box of packing pieces of varying thickness. I can then set the gradient as described above and use packing pieces to adjust as necessary to get the spirit level bubble where I want it to be.

[tigerburnie]

Having witnessed 46100 storming Falahill (having travelled on the day's previous train too) I can fully attest to the bass-heavy exhaust of these most magnificent of steam locos. They really are floorshakers! :-)

Tribute once again to the inherent superiority of the LMS. ;-)

 

D4

Taken from Chris Wards Annesley website, he was a fireman on the Great Central, fair to say the LMS engines apart from Black 5's were not much thought of.

 

"Royal Scots"

 

In 1962/63 we had the misfortune to "acquire" some of the "crème de la crème" of the hated L.M.S. Yes, you've guessed - the famous "Royal Scots" together with “Rebuilt Patriot” 45529 "Stephenson" and “Rebuilt Jubilee” 45735 "Comet". They were supposed to be for the Manchester to Euston "Sleeper", diverted to Marylebone over the GC due to the Euston electrification, and the Marylebone semi - fasts, but we were quite happy with the Black Fives, even though it was pushing it a bit with "eleven on" on the Sleeper.

 

The "Patriot" was immediately relegated to local freight and pick - up work. We soldiered on with the "Scots", but they were poor tools. Apart from being impossibly rough riders,they were often in trouble with inexperienced firemen, due to the long narrow firebox.

My first contact with a "Scot" was about nine months before they came to the G.C. I was in the Relief Link at the time, and was booked with my regular mate Jack, on the 06.20 all stations (including Rushcliffe Halt!) to Marylebone, which we worked as far as Woodford. After three days with Black Fives, we arrived at work as usual at 04.25 on the Thursday to be given 46163 "Civil Service Rifleman". This was about eighteen months before it was transferred to Annesley, (during which time its condition had deteriorated considerably). Anyway, given the fact that we only had five coaches on, and that this train was allowed over four hours to get to Marylebone, the only difficult part about it was to stop the safety valves lifting

However, my next trip on a "Scot" was a little bit different. As I mentioned earlier, I was with driver Tommy Howlett on the Manchester-Marylebone Sleeper. Tommy was a veritable mine of information about non-railway matters – he showed me where Charles Peace the murderer used to live, (opposite Darnall Station) and where Lady Chatterley did all her shenanikins (over to the right passing Heath station, near Sutton Scarsdale Hall) But I digress………After two trouble free days with Black Fives, we booked on as usual, to be greeted by Running Foreman Lol Crampton with the words "Reginald Maudling (the then Chancellor of the Exchequer) is on the train tonight, don't be ******* late!" We had a borrowed "Scot" 46155 "The Lancer", and a tender full of best passenger coal. When we arrived at the 'Vic, we were again informed that the Right Honourable Gentleman was on the train, and that it was (unusually) running to time. In it came, hauled by the usual E.E. Type 4, and ten minutes later, we were away. Crossing the Trent, Tommy had her wound back to 25% cut - off and full regulator. I was firing "text book" style (eight shovelfuls at a time, waiting for the smoke to clear at the chimney top, then another eight). Passing East Leake, the needle was just off the red mark, with the exhaust injector on, and the water in the top of the glass. On clearing Barnston Summit, Tommy eased the regulator for the drop down to Loughborough. Immediately, she started to blow off, and I went over to put the live steam injector on. The bloody thing wouldn't work. As Tommy applied the brakes to slow down through Loughborough Station, the exhaust injector blew off as well. We came to a stand at Quorn 'box with the safety valves roaring and a quarter of a glass of water! The prospect of throwing out the white - hot fire was not very pleasant! Just as the water was in the "bottom nut" we finally got the live steam injector to work and eventually limped into Leicester twenty-five minutes down. I don't suppose Mr. Maudling even turned in his sleep! As we limped on to Leicester MPD, we could hear the Cockneys roaring up Ashby bank with the replacement Black Five they'd been given. Trust this to be the only time we were late all week!

[LNER4479]

To be fair, by 1962/63 the Scots were 30-35 years old and had had very hard lives. The run down of the GC mainline was already on the cards so clearly no-one was going to invest any more time/money on maintenance and upkeep than was necessary. A very sad state of affairs.

[The Stationmaster]

To be fair, by 1962/63 the Scots were 30-35 years old and had had very hard lives. The run down of the GC mainline was already on the cards so clearly no-one was going to invest any more time/money on maintenance and upkeep than was necessary. A very sad state of affairs.

 

The worst trip I ever had behind steam was behind a 'Scot' on the midnight Marylebone - Manchester, dropped time like it was going out of fashion out to Aylesbury where it came to a stand for 'a blow' and seemingly chucking out about half the fire judging by what could be seen from the train but even after 45 minutes of that attention it only managed to struggle on to Woodford where it was taken off and a Black Five was substituted.  Almost a typical Black Five run as the enginemen were obviously trying hard so we really got going but that was taken off at Leicester and an EE Type 4 (Class 40 for younger readers) took its place; much to my disgust the Type 4 worked right through to Manchester so I missed out on an electric over Woodhead.

Edited December 21, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[tigerburnie]

I think it's fair to say not only the Great Central steam engines were neglected at this time, pretty much the whole network was in a poor state, hence the Nationalisation, otherwise there may have been other companies that went to the scrapyard. My own limited visits to the Carlisle/Shap area doesn't have me thinking that it was in any worse or better condition than the Central, it was a long time before the trains looked like someone cared for them

Edited December 21, 2017 by tigerburnie

[great central]

I think it's fair to say not only the Great Central steam engines were neglected at this time, pretty much the whole network was in a poor state, hence the Nationalisation, otherwise there may have been other companies that went to the scrapyard. My own limited visits to the Carlisle/Shap area doesn't have me thinking that it was in any worse or better condition than the Central, it was a long time before the trains looked like someone cared for them

 

Not wishing to hijack the thread so I'll try to be brief. It's fairly well recorded that the GC was deliberately run down following the transfer of most of it to the LM region, study of the relevant Yeadon volume and contemporaray photos shows ex LNER O1s condemed en masse at Annesley to be replaced by ex LMS 8Fs. Many of those O1s were fairly recently overhauled including one which was condemned only a couple of weeks after a Heavy General, I wonder if it ever actually worked again afterwards?

That the Scots were at the end of their lives without major works attention isn't in doubt, indeed one was condemned immediately on arrival such was it's condition.

Another episode concerns a small batch of Britannias, still relatively new then but in dire need of works overhauls, transferred in. The local fitters managed to batter them into some kind of shape and at least make them fit for the work required, only to have them transferred away again! 

I agree that around this particular period in time things certainly looked neglected and dirty, as much as anything due to a lack of cleaners, Chris Ward notes at the beginnning of his website being taken on as a cleaner at Annesley and the foreman not knowing what to do with him it had been so long since they'd had a cleaner.

But what does stand out to me in many photos and cine film of the era that most locos although filthy were reasonably steam tight so I think it only right that we should acknowledge the hard work (very hard, dirty and unpleasant work often in appaling conditions) of the 'backroom staff' at the sheds. Fitters, boiler washers, blacksmiths, boilersmiths, carpenters and the myriad other tradesmen who took a pride in their work, satisfied that they were doing their bit to keep the wheeels turning.

 

Edit: Just after pressing post a small anecdote came to mind. Whilst walking around the preserved GC shed at Loughborough over 20 years ago some 'choice words' were uttered from under a nearby loco, followed by a figure in oil stained overalls emerging from the pit between the rails. Seeing me there he said fairly loudly 'don't ever let anyone tell you this is romantic, it's ****** filthy, hard work!' Given that preserved locos are cossetted and kept pretty clean it's difficult to imagine what it must have been like 'back in the day'

Edited December 21, 2017 by great central

[LNER4479]

My Dad has always reckoned that 1964 was the last good year for mainline steam in this country. A bit subjective and dependent on where you were in the country but not without some substance.

 

 

 

On the LM, both Crewe and Derby continued to overhaul locos. On the ER, Doncaster (works) had finished with steam but Darlington was still active. The SR had the relatively modern Bulleid rebuilds still doing useful work on the WoEML and of course the A4s were enjoying their final hurrah on the Glasgow-Aberdeens. Only the WR was more or less barren steam-wise as the hydraulic revolution had taken hold. My Dad's August 1964 visit to Shap (which I'm likely to refer to from time to time on this thread!), armed with his Eumig 8mm cine camera and 4 rolls of colour film, yielded Duchesses, Royal Scots, Jubilees, Black 5s, 8Fs, Britannias, Clans, 9Fs, Fairburn 2-6-4Ts... so still good variety at that time. But just weeks later, many of the XP mainline locos were withdrawn or put in store with the end of the summer timetable, never to be active again.

 

 

 

Below is one of the sightings of his trip - rebuilt Jubilee 45736 'Phoenix' on the Euston-Perth express, steam-hauled from Crewe. He was of course hoping for a Duchess but 45736's crew put on a grand display. Notice that the loco isn't just whispering at the valves, it's blowing its nuts off - up the 1-in-75! Both crew were looking out this side and gave a friendly wave as they passed the 'gallery' - at least two other enthusiasts can be seen as my Dad panned round. Fireman had obviously put the shovel down with so much steam to spare.

(please note that this is a screen shot from a video made by pointing my I-phone at the tele whilst the VHS video was playing - hence the low definition result. But hopefully you get the idea.)

 

 

What more inspiration could one possibly need?

[LNER4479]

Well, what else is there to do whilst watching Jools bringing the new year in? (Ed Sheeran doing Layla, backed by Jools and his band, was a bit ... well ... different).

 

Anyway, to pick up the Shap construction thread...

 

With the basic frames of the boards set up, the template used to mark out the trackbed pieces - carefully retained - was used as a guide to knock in the alignment pins, a pin every 6 inches, in the centre of the trackbed.

 

On their own, these would be unlikely to mark out a smooth curve so we now do an alignment survey in a manner similar to the traditional civil engineer way of doing things. The offset of each pin from those either side of it is measured thus. This is known as a versine and provides a measure of curvature, inversely proportional to radius - much easier for the full size civil engineer to deal with.

 

Each versine is entered into a computer spreadsheet which shows up the misalignments. A simple (honestly!) bit of maths then lies behind the process of adjusting the position of each pin until an optimised alignment is arrived at. The position of each of the pins is then physically adjusted accordingly to map out the optimal alignment. Here, pins 27 and 28 need moving by 4.5mm.

 

And this is the result. A little challenging to photograph from a depth of field point of view but hopefully the smooth alignment is apparent. Track-laying thereafter is a synch as the track is simply laid to a consistent offset either side of the pins.

 

With the pins now accurately marking the centre of the trackbed, we can now mark the outer edge (120mm [30feet] total width) and then, with the jigsaw set to 45deg, the final edge of the embankment is cut.

 

With the embankment trackbed cut to final size, the intermediate scenery support pieces are installed. These are simply cantilevered out from the central spine.

 

This then allows the front fascia piece to be cut and attached to complete the basic scenery framework.

 

Here is the roadbed added for the Shap Wells Hotel access road.

 

And we end this instalment with the same process repeated for the adjacent board. The outer pieces of the lining paper template were also retained, being quite useful at this stage to get a feel for the general rise and fall of the landscape in relation to the railway. Note also that a 45 deg bracing piece has been added to the legs of this board. This is hinged in three places so that it folds away with the legs for transportation, a design copied from Grantham. Provision of these obviously adds to the rigidity of the baseboard structure when set up.

 

Next time - the first piece of structure modelling.

Edited January 1, 2018 by LNER4479

[Ed Winterbury]

I've just tuned back into this thread. Why have you highlighted the words 'how' and 'to'?

[Mallard60022]

 

 

IMG_6504.JPG

With the basic frames of the boards set up, the template used to mark out the trackbed pieces - carefully retained - was used as a guide to knock in the alignment pins, a pin every 6 inches, in the centre of the trackbed.

 

IMG_6506.JPG

On their own, these would be unlikely to mark out a smooth curve so we now do an alignment survey in a manner similar to the traditional civil engineer way of doing things. The offset of each pin from those either side of it is measured thus. This is known as a versine and provides a measure of curvature, inversely proportional to radius - much easier for the full size civil engineer to deal with.

 

IMG_6507.JPG

Each versine is entered into a computer spreadsheet which shows up the misalignments. A simple (honestly!) bit of maths then lies behind the process of adjusting the position of each pin until an optimised alignment is arrived at. The position of each of the pins is then physically adjusted accordingly to map out the optimal alignment. Here, pins 27 and 28 need moving by 4.5mm.

 

IMG_6510.JPG

And this is the result. A little challenging to photograph from a depth of field point of view but hopefully the smooth alignment is apparent. Track-laying thereafter is a synch as the track is simply laid to a consistent offset either side of the pins.

 

IMG_6512.JPG

With the pins now accurately marking the centre of the trackbed, we can now mark the outer edge (120mm [30feet] total width) and then, with the jigsaw set to 45deg, the final edge of the embankment is cut.

 

 

Next time - the first piece of structure modelling.

Oh how I can verify that the panel pin/ruler/PC magic trick programme, track laying for sweeping curves method works a treat. Oh yes.

I'm also envious of the space available to do that woodwork. Shame I don't still have access to the Craft Room I used back in the early 80s. Sigh!

Super work G.

Philth   

Edited January 4, 2018 by Mallard60022

[LNER4479]

I've just tuned back into this thread. Why have you highlighted the words 'how' and 'to'?

Sorry Ed, not quite with you. Where exactly do you mean?

[teaky]

Hi Grahame,

 

Thanks for the detail on the baseboard construction and track laying.  I have a few questions, if I may.

 

1. You appear to have used 9mm ply for the main T girder and ends, and something thinner for the scenery supports and sides.  Is this 6mm ply or simply whatever you had to hand?

 

2. On curves, do you use several short straight sections for the vertical section (web) of the T girder or do you curve it?

 

3. How do you accommodate point motors and similar under-baseboard items?  Do they always miss the central vertical sections?

 

4. Setting out pins for curves - Not having had any need to use versines before I had to look it up and spent a few minutes skimming through a track realignment document yesterday using the "Hallade" method.  I think I have the gist of it but will need to study it properly at some point to fully understand the process.  Have you just used a spreadsheet to automate the handwritten table used to calculate, check and recalculate offsets?

[Corbs]

Great updates chaps. I saw this video on youtube and thought of you - 76079 banking a tour over Shap and Beattock in 2001.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh8fyxr2J3Y

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Was that Standard 4 doing any work?  Looks like it could barely keep up!

 

In the meantime, this is how to climb a hill...

 

[Barry O]

By the look of it the banker was being fired hard to make sure it kept up...

Edited January 5, 2018 by Barry O

[Corbs]

Certainly in the earlier clips it seemed to be along for the ride, in the rain at 2:04 is the best part - working hard!

 

The double lickey banker tour with 6201 and the two Tyseley panniers, in some clips, appears to be the Princess dragging the two smaller locos uphill!

[Mallard60022]

Was that Standard 4 doing any work?  Looks like it could barely keep up!

 

In the meantime, this is how to climb a hill...

 

Bloo#y Nora, that must have been something to behold. Wowzer.

Phil