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Kerr Stuart ‘Victory’ Class – A 7mm RTR Makeover


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Possibly easier to make too, if you’re a Blacksmith, and fundamentally, everything is made by hammering stuff.

 

Much easier to form a square rod or wire than a round one.

 

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Simon

Well Simon, as a Blacksmith I can say, it's my experience square stock is nearly all ways more difficult work than round stock when coiling helically. Square bar usually needs 'squaring up' regularly on account of its tendency to 'cockle' (forming a rhomboid shape in section) on the mandrill.

 

Guy

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Much easier to form a square rod or wire than a round one.

 

If this was a safety valve spring from Swindon then the spring would have been wound from a bar of that had four flat sides...  with two side parallel...  and not square in section - so more probably called a rhombus section.  The "odd" section was used so that as the spring was wound the resulting cross-section was square.

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PGH - what was the original use of the derelict Aberaman building in which you photographed the Victory?  I believe you might have mentioned wagon works in another thread, but it seems a massive workshop.

 

Tony

 

I believe it was originally a wagon works, part of the Powell Dyffryn 'empire' as was the adjacent colliery.  I don't know when it ceased to be used for wagon building, and then perhaps later by the NCB for wagon repairs.  By the time of my first visit the entire site was disused and the building completely empty apart from KS 3066.

 

Edited by PGH
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I'm not sure if these photos of the last surviving Victory loco are any help - if not I'll happily delete them.

 

Sorry David, this is wandering off topic - I'll delete it shortly

 

Thank you for the images, much appreciated; they are always useful for the details even if the loco is rather different.

 

Pleased don't delete anything - it's all part of the 'live performance' of a conversation that should be preserved, IMHO.    David

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I have been greatly enjoying this topic, not to mention previous ones and your website. Your eye for the finer details and skill in representing them are both fascinating and inspiring. Particularly with the Victory class which I've been taken with since I encountered Don Townsley's drawings 40 odd years ago. It's compact but powerful - a 'pocket Hercules' of a loco with a classic design.

 

Also pleasing is your ready use of machine tools, especially as a Unimat 3 was one of my first serious purchases and still gives great satisfaction. A question in that regard: a little while back in MRJ I believe I remember seeing an article where the author (can't remember, sorry) preferred carbide tooling when machining styrene as the material didn't heat up as much, so reducing the risk of melting small or thin sections. Would I be correct is assuming your milling cutters are HSS?

 

Regards

 

Michael McLachlan

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A question in that regard: a little while back in MRJ I believe I remember seeing an article where the author (can't remember, sorry) preferred carbide tooling when machining styrene as the material didn't heat up as much, so reducing the risk of melting small or thin sections. Would I be correct is assuming your milling cutters are HSS?

 

Thank you for your kind words, Michael, they are most encouraging because I do realise that my postings are 'not what I do' for most modellers here so they are of limited interest. 

 

On the cutters, yes most of mine are HSS.  Over the years, I have bought them from model engineering exhibitions but, when I need drills or cutters today, I buy online from The Drill Service (Horley) (Free P&P for orders over £10 and I recommend them without hesitation).  Now, they are not the cheapest of suppliers but their drills and cutters are really sharp and hard, so they do not break and they last and last, so they are far cheaper in the long run than buying from the traditional suppliers at model railway exhibitions.  Entering their website is a bit like being dropped at a large city department store when you are used to the corner shop.  So, for drills we after jobbers for our needs and I'll lead you straight in at:

 

D-HSS Jobber Drills  https://www.drill-service.co.uk/Product.asp?Parent=020080440000&Tool=394

 

Ignore the 'You cannot be serious' teeny weeny drills at the top of the page and work your way down to 'our' size; for example 0.5mm is £1.68 and 1.0mm is £1.33, which is the sort of price that you should pay for a decent drill in this size range.

 

For milling cutters, specifically slot drills:

 

SD - HSS Slot Drill   https://www.drill-service.co.uk/Product.asp?Parent=100040340000&Tool=109

 

These days, I do elect to buy carbide slot drills in the smaller sizes:

 

SDC Carbide Slot Drill   https://www.drill-service.co.uk/Product.asp?Parent=100040020000&Tool=76

 

The logic for using a carbide cutter on styrene escapes me, sorry.  For cutting styrene, just keep the speed down, the cut light and the feed slow but it makes a big difference having a properly sharp tool (that has not been used on steel).  Experiment will soon show if you are trying to take off too much too quickly with a blunt tool as the styrene will start to melt, rather than cut.

 

I hope this answers it all but please do just ask if not?

 

David

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David,

 

I’ve been looking at various cutters for use at work, we just bought a rather nice (in the “precise” meaning of the word) vertical machining centre, which will earn its keep making things out of diecast aluminium and plastics. (I couldn’t possibly divert it to model making activities, at least not during working hours...)

 

The “word on the street” suggests that HSS is likely to be sharper than carbide, and more likely to work well on thermoplastics - interestingly, the suppliers are pushing TiAlN coated HSS tooling for the ally too, with the objective of preventing material build-up on the tool flank.

 

Carbide appears to be the tooling of choice with harder / tougher materials such as steels. The demos that the machine suppliers put on were impressive, 15mm diameter cutter, maybe 20mm deep, straight into solid steel, full diameter. The steel was probably leaded, but the fishtail of chips coming off & hosing around the enclosure was a sight to see!

 

Any thoughts?

HNY

Simon

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... Any thoughts?  Simon

 

Well, Simon, the first thing to say is that I am probably not the best person to comment and that there must be better qualified engineers here who would be able to write precisely and concisely with knowledgeable opinions. 

 

One thing to remember in this game is that we are doing it for fun, so time and output are not of great concern to us, whereas in production engineering everything needs to be near optimal to achieve an efficient output.  One of the ramifications of all this is that we can 'get away with' lots that is not best practice and certainly nowhere near the optimum; for example, we often use cutting speeds that feel right and which 'work' but that are probably a lot lower that you could achieve with a heavier, more rigid machine.

 

The word on the street is quite possibly correct but also the word on the street is that carbon steel tools stay sharper for longer ... the way we use them, anyway, because nothing is going high speed (as in HSS) so nothing is going to get that hot.  That said, I do tend to buy carbide milling cutters in the smaller sizes these days because they will just whip through the hard skins of brass castings and other tough stuff without developing any dullness, in my experience. 

 

Sorry, I haven't investigated TiAlN coated HSS tooling, really on the basis that, at the rates that I remove material, I have never had much trouble with build-up on the tool.  I concede that some alloys, such as Mazak, can be a bit tricky and I do finish up with a dry mouth after a heavy milling session - not through fear or anxiety but through providing saliva as a lubricant! 

 

I hope this helps.

 

David

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If this was a safety valve spring from Swindon then the spring would have been wound from a bar of that had four flat sides...  with two side parallel...  and not square in section - so more probably called a rhombus section.  The "odd" section was used so that as the spring was wound the resulting cross-section was square.

This subject passed across my thinking again and a couple of facts ought to be recorded for posterity, incidentally the source of GWR information was Ernest J Nutty.  As for the GWS information...  well I as there at the time.

 

The GWR appeared to have two different safety valve springs...  one was for boiler pressure up to 200psi and one was for boiler pressure over 225psi - the difference was in the cross-section area of the coiled material.

 

When engines went to Barry the local dark side was pretty quick to see an easy buck and most of the non-ferrous material from cabs and boilers disappeared so when engines came to be "saved" and restored there was a general deficit of such fittings and that required the preservationists to manufacture from new.  As luck would have it - foresight in hindsight - the GWS had been to Swindon and purchased a significant quantity of patterns and amongst them were the safety valve pattern and core boxes for a taper boiler.

 

GWS arranged for Swindon to manufacture a batch of new, complete, safety valves circa 1976.  Whilst Swindon was happy to oblige there was a real problem in that Swindon neither had nor could procure a spring steel section as was specified for producing the GWR design of spring.  Not to be outdone, Swindon designed a new spring for the GWS order and that was of a circular section.

 

Graham Beare

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When engines went to Barry the local dark side was pretty quick to see an easy buck and most of the non-ferrous material from cabs and boilers disappeared so when engines came to be "saved" and restored there was a general deficit of such fittings and that required the preservationists to manufacture from new. .

 

Graham Beare

 

My recollection is that, as a result of some of the more 'collectible' bits being removed by 'enthusiasts' and other petty pilferers, Woodhams themselves removed most of the non-ferrous pipework and fittings around 1970.  Thanks for the very interesting information about the safety valve springs though

Ray..

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Thank you David for responding to my questions. The carbide on  styrene was simply something I recall reading without the experience of having tried it. I have a similar memory of someone machining Perspex and using water as a coolant - again I've not tried it. Contributor Bertiedog (I don't know Stephen's last name) has apparently for some time been using 3mm burr-sided milling cutters with success as his post #37 on the 'Lathes & M/C tools' shows. I've used them when grooving a handwheel for a collet drawbar and a clamping knob for a workbench lamp: results were good. I've also milled urethane when working on Mink d in 2mm with an excellent finish. This, incidentally, was from a casting courtesy of Phil Badger (Ixion etc). These cutters are also extremely inexpensive.

 

I've also milled Mazak, a Fleischmann 'Black Anna' body, using an FC3 cutter. I was quite smug when I machined off the tank filler hatches without touching the tank top and leaving no witness marks. Much less smug when I later started milling out the inside of the body and this time used an older cutter which had probably been used on steel.........At least the horrible finish couldn't be seen from the outside.

 

As far as the various coatings go, they seem to be common on cheaper drillbits; definitely not for serious use. However I was recently machining some stainless steel of unknown but less than friendly characteristics with inserted tip tooling and TiN coated tips lasted far longer.

 

Regards

 

Michael

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  • 3 weeks later...

To David Smith,

 

After a long delay, Accucraft have just delivered their live-steam Victory in 3/8" Scale.

They run very nicely out-of-the-box, and while they are a 'starter' locomotive (meaning not ever so detailed) the brass carcass is very reasonable for a cheap live-steamer. They've sensibly made the cab suit the six 'middle' locomotives of the ten - KS 3068 to 3073 - but I hate its squashed look:

 

post-5148-0-11706900-1517396789_thumb.jpg

 

   and am having remodelling thoughts like yours.

 

The most straightforward option is to lift the roof back to the height of the first two engines KS 3066 & 3067, the latter being East Kent No.4.

     I could also follow your example and represent KS 3074 at Lambton, of which I attach a couple of RCTS thumbnails - one can buy bigger, unwatermarked copies from their website.

 

post-5148-0-84905600-1517397383.jpg

 

post-5148-0-08608400-1517397676.jpg

 

But, being awkward, what I'd really like to do is model KS 3075 during it's stay with United Steel & Coal under the nameplate ROTHER VALE No 8. Like KS 3074, it is said to have started life with a 'wrap-over' cab.

 

Do you - does anyone - have the slightest idea what the original 'wrap-over' cabs on KS 3074/5 have looked like, please?

     Have any photos survived, from ROD, from United Steel, or from Orgreave? (I've not found any online.) 

     Or is there a similar contemporary KS that I could imitate?

     Might this similar engine help, also built in Stoke at about the same time, but by the Knotty:

 

post-5148-0-05231700-1517397961_thumb.jpg

 

(It's a right nutcase of a shunter: rebuilt with four cylinders, hence the outside Walshaerts.)

 

Thanks, David 1/2d

Edited by tuppenced
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But, being awkward, what I'd really like to do is model KS 3075 during it's stay with United Steel & Coal under the nameplate ROTHER VALE No 8. Like KS 3074, it is said to have started life with a 'wrap-over' cab.

 

Do you - does anyone - have the slightest idea what the original 'wrap-over' cabs on KS 3074/5 have looked like, please?

     Have any photos survived, from ROD, from United Steel, or from Orgreave? (I've not found any online.) 

 

 

Real Photographs Ref:- W8814

 

I believe the Real Photographs collection was acquired by Ian Allan and has subsequently gone to the National Railway Museum, but I don't know whether copies are currently available.

If you wish I could scan my copy and send it attached to a Personal Message.

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Do you - does anyone - have the slightest idea what the original 'wrap-over' cabs on KS 3074/5 have looked like, please?    

 

There were drawings in the Railway Modeller, September, 1966.  This one shows the end elevation of the two versions of the cab; 3074 and 3075 are 6" taller.

 

post-5428-0-16335600-1517518924_thumb.jpg

 

I am sure you'll enjoy your live steam loco.

 

David

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Yes it does, but the trouble is that photo has been scanned wrong way round.  It needs to be flipped (technical term from Photoshop !) horizontally to get the right view.

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Guest Isambarduk

I'll put a ruler over the steamer and make a plan.

 

Always a good idea.  I'll be interested to see it and to see you follow it through.

 

With me, things take time, which is why I have not written a progress report for a while … but I was amazed to realise that well over a month has gone by.

 

Having cut off the representation of the buffer planks, the frame overlays need to be extended by the equivalent amount at the rear with a simple cut-and-shut.

 

VictoryFrames-BA.jpg

Frames before (above) and after extension

 

At the same time, I took the opportunity to add some detail to the steam brake on one side and to make a more realistic representation of the hand brake operating crank and spindle to replace the plastic component that was a bit distorted.

 

The plastic brake standard looked a bit undernourished so I made a replacement in brass and fitted it with a steel handle.

 

VictoryBrakeStandards.jpg

Replacement brake standard (left)

 

Next to be addressed were the steps, which required a bit of alteration to represent plain steps without the later additions of turn-ups to the treads.

 

VictorySteps.jpg

Nickel silver rear (left) and front step assemblies

 

The rear steps are cast integrally with the running plate but I decided that it would be easiest to mill away most of the existing steps, leaving just a stub as a sturdy support, and to fit a new nickel silver step assembly on top.

 

VictoryRearSteps.jpg

1) Original step 2) Milling away treads 3) Treads removed 4) Front of remaining stub

5) Rear of remaining stub 6) Replacement nickel silver step assembly superimposed on stub

 



The front steps are supplied loose as optional additions that are intended to be glued below the running plate. I decided to make new assemblies in nickel silver that I could screw (2 x 12BA) below the running plate, after painting and lining.



VictoryFrontSteps.jpg

Replacement nickel silver front step assembly

 

There were other smaller details that I elected to add or replace (samples shewn in the image below), including a lubricator (well, I think it is, difficult to tell from the photograph that I have) and a sand operating leaver that fit on the LHS within the frames towards the front, two boiler washout plugs for the firebox shoulders, four tapered handrail stanchions for the cab openings, two lamps (with lenses to be added after painting) and six lamp brackets that I silver soldered up from nickel silver strip. I turned the reversing lever around on the quadrant because the release catch should be behind the leaver, as the driver looks at it. Given that it is already quite detailed and that it is well hidden within the closed cab, the only modification that I made to the backhead was to fit a valve handle on the LHS where there was a peculiar looking, oval blanking off plate. These components will appear in their places on the loco in later images.

 

VictoryDetailingComponents.jpg

 

At this stage, I had ticked off all the tasks on my long list and the only remaining modification was to replace the upper part of the cab.

 

VictoryCabRemoval.jpg

No going back now!

 

More to follow …

 

David

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VictoryBeforeCabRemoval.jpg


So, as a recap, above is my Victory with all the redundant parts (except the upper part of the cab) removed and most of my mods and additions in place. All that remains to be done is to remove the upper part of the cab, which was a simple job with a slitting saw in the milling machine, and to fit a new one in brass.



VictoryTanksCabB-A.jpg
The tanks, cab and bunker moulding (above) and with the upper part of the cab removed (below).


To measure up and fit the new upper part of the cab, I need to reassemble the major parts of the loco to create a KS Victory Cabriolet:



VictoryCabRemoved.jpg

 

I made dimensioned sketches of the new front and rear cab sheets by referring to a drawing of a Hunslet Austerity with a Lambton cab and also with the aid of a cab etching of the same loco that was given to me by a friend who had built his Austerity with a conventional cab. Devising the dimensions of the two side sheets was a matter of fitting to the existing tanks and bunker, and referring to the photographs.



VictoryNewCabComponents.jpg
Components of the Lambton cab, one side sheet has been formed

 

The front and rear cab sheets fit neatly in place …



VictoryCabSheetsInPlace.jpg

 

… all I have to do now is stick the side sheets on.

David

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Actually, there was one more task that I had to undertake before soldering together the four elements of the cab, I needed to fit the bars to protect the glass in the rear windows, so it was fortunate that I looked at my tasks schedule.

 

VictoryRearCabSheet.jpg

 

I found this not so easy to do. I had hoped to drill the holes using coordinates and my milling machine but, in the end, I found that marking out very carefully and drilling in stages up to 0.45mm to take the brass wire was likely to be the most successful way.
 
David

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Guest Isambarduk

Oh, and just one more task: to make up the internal bunker, coal door and a few fittings.



VictoryInternalBunker.jpg


With the front and rear cab sheets slid into place in the grooves in the tanks and the bunker, respectively, I tacked on the left and right side sheets using my RSU. I carefully removed the assembly to finish the job with a conventional iron.



VictoryCabAssembly.jpg


I finished off the assembly with a rear bunker extension and a ventilator in the roof.



VictoryCabInPlace.jpg

 

As was planned (and hoped) the assembly slid back into place on the bunker and tanks and … ta-da … a Victory with a rather different looking cab.

More to follow …

David

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