Strikes in December and January

[lmsforever]

Well it had to happen didn't it our friendly Mr Cash is calling his drivers out on strike in December and January  just when people want to travel on the WCML he uses his usual insults to Branson on his island in the sun .They want four per cent and have been offered three point six  so cant they accept this and then discuss the difference like grown up people but this is not there way bully bully that's the way.He thinks the public will be supportive but this time I think not as we have had enough of being blackmailed by these politically motivated unions all we want is to travel without problems ,by the way I bet there are many people out there who would love the offered pay rise .

[chriswright03]

Any Industrial action has to be by a postal ballot of the members so one man cannot make that decision, although influence can be used it is still difficult to get a majority vote for anything. 

[phil-b259]

Well it had to happen didn't it our friendly Mr Cash is calling his drivers out on strike in December and January  just when people want to travel on the WCML he uses his usual insults to Branson on his island in the sun .They want four per cent and have been offered three point six  so cant they accept this and then discuss the difference like grown up people but this is not there way bully bully that's the way.He thinks the public will be supportive but this time I think not as we have had enough of being blackmailed by these politically motivated unions all we want is to travel without problems ,by the way I bet there are many people out there who would love the offered pay rise .

 

Most Drivers are members of ASLEF NOT the RMT - something ASLEF want to keep that way.

 

The only Drivers the RMT represents are those on London Underground, and possibly various other light rail systems across the country.

 

Why do you think GTR / Southern were anxious to cut a deal but have  given the RMT the cold shoulder? Answer you can run a train without a guard but not without a driver.

 

You should also note that it is illegal for ASLEF to take secondary action under Thatcherite trade union laws - ASLEF can only strike if the issue directly affects their members - who are almost exclusively drivers.

 

As such while there will be some disruption, and onboard services (provided by staff who are RMT members) will take a hit, provided the TOC avoids a dispute with ASLEF then it won't be that bad.

[101]

Well it had to happen didn't it our friendly Mr Cash is calling his drivers out on strike in December and January just when people want to travel on the WCML he uses his usual insults to Branson on his island in the sun .They want four per cent and have been offered three point six so cant they accept this and then discuss the difference like grown up people but this is not there way bully bully that's the way.He thinks the public will be supportive but this time I think not as we have had enough of being blackmailed by these politically motivated unions all we want is to travel without problems ,by the way I bet there are many people out there who would love the offered pay rise .

Mr Cash does not have any drivers (or if he does its only a handful)

Union leaders cannot just call a strike for purely political reasons, as said above a ballot now has to held. As a (now ex) driver and paid up member of ASLEF I can assure you it's not easy to get a vote for strikes, in fact most things tend to get voted through now. Do you think anyone would really strike for 0.4% of a pay rise? Any gain from a win would be gobbled up by lost wages. I don't know the ins and outs of this but if you look at the RMT website you will see there is more to it. And the fact there was a massive vote in favour of action shows Virgin have lot of unhappy staff.

However as Phil says the fact that ASLEF aren't involved means most trains will probably run with management filling train managers roles.

[lmsforever]

So if the RMT is making all these agressive noises and they dont have many drivers is it just Cash saying ,look I am still here and dont I make a lot of noise, whilst waiting for a supportive government and then dictating how things should be run?

[royaloak]

The railways do have staff other than drivers!

 

As for the opening post, I havent laughed so much at such a completely inept post before, thanks for the chuckles!

 

Oh and just for information (I know a lot of posters dont like facts as it upsets their ideological, anti train staff views), VWC trains have to have a safety critical Guard on board, no Guard no passengers allowed on. Of course Virgin will train up the Managers and back office staff to open and close the doors but that will be the limit of the training given, just look at Greater Anglia to see what a marvelous job these 5 minute wonders did over there, oh wait a minute, you cant because the control logs were never made available even to those with login details were they, I wonder why not?

Edited November 30, 2017 by royaloak

[101]

So if the RMT is making all these agressive noises and they dont have many drivers is it just Cash saying ,look I am still here and dont I make a lot of noise, whilst waiting for a supportive government and then dictating how things should be run?

You obviously have a problem with unions (Or their leaders) look at the RMT website it quotes a 9 to 1 vote by the members in favour of action . Edited November 30, 2017 by 101

[royaloak]

You obviously have a problem with unions (Or their leaders) look at the RMT website it quotes a 9 to 1 vote by the members in favour of action .

He has a problem with rail staff in general and drivers specifically hence the totally inaccurate opening and subsequent posts.

 

As long as you dont take him seriously (or do 30 seconds of research) he is always good for a laugh.

Edited November 30, 2017 by royaloak

[RfDforever]

Certainly up to the 1960's - 1980's the great majority of drivers at Northampton and Bletchley (and possibly other depots in the area) were NUR rather than ASLEF. They always worked during an ASLEF strike which suggested some long established principal (or grievance).

This sometimes caught out commuters who phoned their bosses to say they couldn't get to work because of the (ASLEF) strike when services were running pretty normally.

Not sure whether this has changed subsequently

[royaloak]

Certainly up to the 1960's - 1980's the great majority of drivers at Northampton and Bletchley (and possibly other depots in the area) were NUR rather than ASLEF. They always worked during an ASLEF strike which suggested some long established principal (or grievance).

This sometimes caught out commuters who phoned their bosses to say they couldn't get to work because of the (ASLEF) strike when services were running pretty normally.

Not sure whether this has changed subsequently

If its not your Union on strike then you turn up for work as normal, the only proviso is you do not have to cross a picket line of any Union.

 

During the dispute down here last year there wasnt a picket line at the entrance to the staff carpet so everyone else was able to book on which I think was more than fair of them.

 

I best not mention the fact Management made it known that anyone taking the 6 pickets (the maximum number allowed) anything to eat or drink would be in trouble.

[phil-b259]

If its not your Union on strike then you turn up for work as normal, the only proviso is you do not have to cross a picket line of any Union.

 

 

Technically untrue:- Any persons refusing to cross a picket line organised by a union of which they are not a member is, under Thatcherite anti-trade union laws, taking 'secondary action' - which is illegal and can lead to dismissal.

 

Under said laws the ONLY people having protection for not turning up to work are persons belonging to the Union staging the picket.

 

Naturally however, the railway being what it is, and managers usually being relatively sensible, it does not follow that the employers will be quite as strident with non union members crossing picket lines as Mrs T wanted when drawing up said legislation.

Edited November 30, 2017 by phil-b259

[roundhouse]

Any one know the dates of the strikes yet?

[phil-b259]

The railways do have staff other than drivers!

 

As for the opening post, I havent laughed so much at such a completely inept post before, thanks for the chuckles!

 

Oh and just for information (I know a lot of posters dont like facts as it upsets their ideological, anti train staff views), VWC trains have to have a safety critical Guard on board, no Guard no passengers allowed on. Of course Virgin will train up the Managers and back office staff to open and close the doors but that will be the limit of the training given, just look at Greater Anglia to see what a marvelous job these 5 minute wonders did over there, oh wait a minute, you cant because the control logs were never made available even to those with login details were they, I wonder why not?

 

The point is that without a driver, a train goes nowhere, the situation with guards however is less clear cut. Even before the whole Southern dispute kicked off you would occasionally see in the control log that such and such a service would run as DOO and only stopped at manned stations due to an operational incident. Thus where a TOC runs a mix of services - some DOO others with guards it follows that a 'guards strike' is far less disruptive than a 'drivers strike'

 

Now I appreciate that VTWC may well have it written into all their safety agreements that their trains must have a guard - in which case if none can be found then as you say the train doesn't run. However as I'm sure people can appreciate it is a lot quicker to train up various managers / office bods to undertake guards roles than it is to train them up to be a driver! As such, even with the guards out on strike a reasonable proportion of the service will still be able to run - which wouldn't be the case if the drivers were on strike.

 

Equally as nice as they are to have unless on board staff such as the catering crew are specifically mentioned in the various safety agreements then if they don't show up for work it won't stop trains from running.

 

As I have said before there are only TWO GROUPS that have the ability to cause mass disruption to train services through industrial action these days - and they are Network Rail Signallers and the train drivers themselves. Industrial action by every other group of railway staff will be compromised by the ability of TOCs to 'work round' the disruption caused and eventually make strike action irrelevant (as was the case with Southern).

[101]

Any one know the dates of the strikes yet?

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-strike-action-on-virgin-west-coast

[Coryton]

The only Drivers the RMT represents are those on London Underground, and possibly various other light rail systems across the country.

 

You should also note that it is illegal for ASLEF to take secondary action under Thatcherite trade union laws - ASLEF can only strike if the issue directly affects their members - who are almost exclusively drivers.

 

 

I thought Southern had a handful of RMT drivers. Could be wrong.

 

As for secondary action...assuming this is about DOO/DCO again, transferring control of doors from guards to drivers does affect drivers too. It won't make them redundant, but is a significant change to their working conditions.

[royaloak]

I thought Southern had a handful of RMT drivers. Could be wrong.

 

As for secondary action...assuming this is about DOO/DCO again, transferring control of doors from guards to drivers does affect drivers too. It won't make them redundant, but is a significant change to their working conditions.

It isnt about DOO.

[John M Upton]

I thought Southern had a handful of RMT drivers. Could be wrong.

 

Correct.  Used to be just a few drivers who were RMT members, however since recent events involving ASLEF, a significant number have reportedly defected from ASLEF to the RMT...

[phil-b259]

I thought Southern had a handful of RMT drivers. Could be wrong.

 

As for secondary action...assuming this is about DOO/DCO again, transferring control of doors from guards to drivers does affect drivers too. It won't make them redundant, but is a significant change to their working conditions.

 

The term 'secondary action' refers to the practice of one group of workers (who have no dispute with their employer) going on strike to support another group of workers with their dispute. For example that might be steel workers or railway workers going on strike in support of  / solidarity with striking coal miners.

 

This practice was specifically outlawed by Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s - the law regarding strikes has been tightened up so much that ONLY workers employed by the firm concerned and directly affected by the changes the company wishes to make (or not make) can take industrial action.

 

Correct.  Used to be just a few drivers who were RMT members, however since recent events involving ASLEF, a significant number have reportedly defected from ASLEF to the RMT...

 

Indeed - again under Thatcher the practice of 'closed shops' where you HAD to be a member of a particular Union to have a job was outlawed. Nowadays a driver can chose to be a member of any Union they wish (even a non transport one should they want to) or indeed not be a union member at all.

 

However for purposes of pay bargaining, etc most companies usually only negotiate with the Union which represents the majority of staff doing that job - which in the case of train drivers on the National network is ASLEF. Where several Unions have parity in numbers then the company can be forced to consult them all but otherwise the reality is minority Unions have very little influence.

 

Now if you are a person of principle over DOO then I can see that the situation with ASLEF having done a deal that facilitates it, at the same time as Southern / GTR / the DfT continues to ignore the RMT and effectively starve them into submission will make you angry with the way ASLEF have behaved. Such a person might therefore feel the desire to swap Unions in a display of solidarity with their RMT colleagues - thanks to Mrs Thatchers actions in outlawing secondary industrial action then moving Unions is the only way to do that. However it would take an awful lot of drivers to swap Unions for such things to have an effect and while some might celebrate people for sticking by the principles they believe in, that carries with it a financial cost to the individual (as they continue to strike with no hope of changing anything) that may well not be sustainable in the long run.

[D854_Tiger]

The term 'secondary action' refers to the practice of one group of workers (who have no dispute with their employer) going on strike to support another group of workers with their dispute. For example that might be steel workers or railway workers going on strike in support of  / solidarity with striking coal miners.

 

This practice was specifically outlawed by Mrs Thatcher in the 1980s - the law regarding strikes has been tightened up so much that ONLY workers employed by the firm concerned and directly affected by the changes the company wishes to make (or not make) can take industrial action.

 

 

I'm not aware that it was ever illegal for a company to sack any worker that engaged in strike action, official, unofficial or secondary.

 

An albeit theoretical risk anyone takes if they choose to strike.

 

A legal situation that was tested to the point of destruction by the infamous Grunwick strike and later by Rupert Murdoch's decision to go over the heads of the print unions and move his entire operation out to Canary Wharf.

 

Bottom line is, no employer has any obligation to continue employing someone and they need not provide any reason for not doing so, provided they meet the legal requirements of redundancy, equality and non-discriminatory fair treatment.

 

So go on strike and your employer could never sack you alone but he could sack all of the strikers, collectively, and without any compensation (including redundancy or pension).

[Coryton]

(including redundancy or pension).

 

Is it really true that a workplace pension can be forfitted if an employee breaches their contract?

[phil-b259]

I'm not aware that it was ever illegal for a company to sack any worker that engaged in strike action, official, unofficial or secondary.

 

An albeit theoretical risk anyone takes if they choose to strike.

 

A legal situation that was tested to the point of destruction by the infamous Grunwick strike and later by Rupert Murdoch's decision to go over the heads of the print unions and move his entire operation out to Canary Wharf.

 

Bottom line is, no employer has any obligation to continue employing someone and they need not provide any reason for not doing so, provided they meet the legal requirements of redundancy, equality and non-discriminatory fair treatment.

 

So go on strike and your employer could never sack you alone but he could sack all of the strikers, collectively, and without any compensation (including redundancy or pension).

In law, any persons going on strike is officially breaking their contract of employment. As such the Government information on the subject makes it quite clear that being sacked is a real possibility unless you are taking action as part of an 'official dispute' that fully complies with the law.

 

See

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

Edited December 1, 2017 by phil-b259

[Bomag]

Is it really true that a workplace pension can be forfitted if an employee breaches their contract?

 

No, normal pensions are defered wages. Unless there is a claim of long term breach of contract then that would be theft. Also if you are sacked for going on strike over redundencey proposals (or not complying with any requirements for notice of redundency) then it is unlikely that a ET would side with an employer.

[D854_Tiger]

In law, any persons going on strike is officially breaking their contract of employment. As such the Government information on the subject makes it quite clear that being sacked is a real possibility unless you are taking action as part of an 'official dispute' that fully complies with the law.

 

See

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

https://www.gov.uk/industrial-action-strikes/your-employment-rights-during-industrial-action

 

 

But even with an official dispute, only for twelve weeks, and I believe (and I could be wrong on this) an official dispute is only official if your employer has first chosen to recognise your union.

 

Employers are currently under no legal obligation to recognise a union, which is why I believe one political party at least has proposed that companies should be forced to recognise a union once a significant proportion of a workforce has chosen to join one.

 

There are certainly more than a few companies in the UK that point blank refuse to recognise any trade unions, a certain Irish airline being one of them, so that must also tie in with current EU law as well.

[D854_Tiger]

No, normal pensions are defered wages. Unless there is a claim of long term breach of contract then that would be theft. Also if you are sacked for going on strike over redundencey proposals (or not complying with any requirements for notice of redundency) then it is unlikely that a ET would side with an employer.

 

I believe it depends upon the type of pension.

 

Nowadays more and more pensions are no longer final salary schemes, in which case, you cannot lose your pension rights as it always was your own money.

 

However with a final salary scheme (and public sector schemes) you could lose the employer contribution component of your fund, same as if you chose to leave their employment of your own accord, before completing any length of service requirement.

 

But, as you say, an ET may see things rather differently, assuming that is you have the means (or backing) to take your case to an ET, and a lot of this has never been tested in the courts as most employers tend to choose the path of least resistance, unless the sums involved are so great.

 

However, at the end of the day, even the highly unionised public sector has ways and means to get rid of those that refuse to pull their weight and you can be pretty certain lots of self certified sickness is as good a way as there is to get yourself placed at the top of the very next redundancy list, remembering that redundancy, especially for younger employees, is by no means a path to any kind of a comfortable lifestyle and always something that you would probably want to avoid.

[Danemouth]

In some final salary schemes e.g. British Gas you could lose all or part of your pension contributions if you were convicted of fraud or theft against the company; there was a rule in the scheme that permitted this. Saw it happen on more than one occasion when I worked as an internal auditor.

 

Dave