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Layout construction/Sundeala/Top surface


HerbertFrederick
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Having created a space in which to build a layout I thought I would seek some advice. I found this forum yesterday when looking for sources of Sundeala. However, quite a lot of the comment on that material was negative. Quite whether the people who had used it and found it unsatisfactory had used it over a frame without anything beneath I could not determine. Clearly it is a material that needs to be laid on something substantial to prevent warping etc. It is said that before using it it must be laid flat in the room in which it is to be used.

 

I have several sections of exhibition stand framing. Egg box if you like. 45 x 20 lengths of wood made into frames, braced at regular intervals and some have sheets of 6mm ply laid over them. It makes them relatively rigid but nothing like as good as some of the 100mm deep frame others have used. When I built a layout for my father over 30 years ago this was what we used. On top of the ply I made the mistake of using insulation board, far too fragile and while it would have reduced the noise it was the wrong material to use. e.g. it would not retain the track pins properly.

 

The supports for the frames were simple 2" x  2" pine at the correct height for my father and screwed inside the frames. In order to ensure they remained in place we used plastic triangular bracket screwed into the loft's wooden surface. The sort of brackets that DIY stores used to sell for those making kitchen cabinets.

 

However, the floor of the new location is re-enforced concrete and I will have to create rectangular frames as the floor is also covered with carpet tiles. The frames can sit on top of 2 x 2 timbers that are screwed to the walls.

 

Assuming I make a nice, rigid structure, using my 45 x 20 wooden frames resting on the perimeter walls, possibly changing the 6mm ply for 12" ply (Birch or otherwise) what do I use as a baseboard top surface please, given the need to be easy to work with etc etc?

 

I will try to take a couple of photos. It would seem a pity not to use the frames. After all, I have been looking after them for a long time

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As posted elsewhere I have made my layout using 9mm/10mm ply as both top surface and sides. The track sits on 3mm cork underlay.

Legs are 100mm x 21mm softwood

The sides are 100mm deep which makes for a very rigid side much better than 2" x 2" softwood which as far as I am concerned is little better than decoration.

Starting again I would increase to ply for the sides to 12mm or more. It would be easier to fix to!

All is pinned & glued and is suffieciently strong enough that I can stand on the baseboards.

 

Most of my baseboards are 4' x 3' several have an extra brace down the centre for extra rigidity to stop sagging

 

Track is glued down with PVA which I find works just fine. (nothing is fixed to the top surface with pins or screws)

 

Keith

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Sounds like a garage or maybe a utility room.  So the answer is don't do it!  Sundeala was the product used by many - it isn't now.  Anywhere you may get wide temp/himidity variations it will crumble.  Plenty on how to build baseboards in other threads on this site.  Look there.

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I've no problem with the product, I've been using it years, some of my present baseboards are 60 years old and been "recycled", 5 or 6 layouts in all kinds of locations, attics, garages, sheds, it's not caused us any problems.

 

Two big advantages it takes pins, and provides sound installation, it also lends itself for better train running, easy to cut holes in for point motors and wires.

 

Yes it will need more support, but so does 9mm ply, I've used ply in places in the past but found sundeala had more advantages, I've also found ply if got damp just as much as a problem.

 

I'am luckily a local wood merchant sells it as 8'x4' sheets, and will deliver, it's got expensive too about £38 a sheet. I've also found schools use it a lot for pin boards in different colours too, I've a couple of "free" sourced boards this way, newer stuff seems to be more dense and requires less supports, the older stuff was only about 8mm, while newer stocks are more like 10mm.

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Wouldn't it be nice if this idea that 'Sundeala' is a good baseboard material would finally become extinct? How many of us have made that mistake, regretted it and then built the next layout with something more suitable – I certainly have.  :)   It was my first attempt at a 2mm scale layout, so it wasn't very big. Despite having 2 x1 bracing at one foot intervals it still ended up looking like a rollercoaster after a year or two.

 

Even laying it on a rigid top surface I would not recommend as it is very susceptible to moisture (e.g. when ballasting).

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Good evening and thank you for your replies. If I may start at the beginning.

 

The room is a pair of converted stables knocked into one. The outer walls are brick but the room was constructed as follows. The floor was laid on a smooth layer of sand over hardcore, then some 50mm insulation sheets. On top of the sheets is the re-enforced concrete. The walls were rather like a dog's hind leg so they were coated with a very thick layer of sand and cement screed (with water proofer) until they were true. Then they were fitted with 50 mm insulated plasterboard. The original ceiling(s) were pitched but a suspended ceiling was fitted above and this was covered with 50 mm insulation and then a plywood surface over that.

I have a small de-humidifier that was used to dry the room after it was plastered and I could use that to ensure a reasonably level degree of humidity. It should be easy to keep the room warm with a small blower heater or an old Ecko Thermavent with a rheostat. The access door is 4' wide and made from PVC with a double glazed panel. Where there was a hit and miss window for ventilation this has been replaced by two small double glazed windows.

I take the point that 45 x 20 timbers might be a little on the "light" side and I could lay one on top of the other, screwed and glued to give 90mm. I do not need to stand on my layout so that would suffice. I have at least six frames of 108" x 32" and enough spare timber to make more.

I am grateful for the confirmation that Sundeala is unsuitable for a layout surface. I think it would be better to remove the 6mm ply that's on the frames at the moment and use 12mm which would increase the rigidity.

Presumably the cork under the track would reduce the noise and if covered with ballast that's applied correctly it would not be seen.

 

 

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Once ballasted, you wil lose most (if not all) the sound-deadening effect of cork underlay.  Some say that ballast laid with Copydex rather than diluted PVA wood glue retains some sound deadening properties but others say it has other drawbacks.

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Personally I favour open topped baseboards as it reduces the drumming caused by a conventional flat baseboard. My On30 layout, now sold, used half inch particle board on a 2'x 8' frame with ballasted track on eighth inch cork and was quite noisy. An earlier P4 terminus used solid top half inch ply for the station (18"x 36") but the approach boards, a tunnel with cutting and an embankment, used quarter inch ply the width of the track supported along the full length by three-quarter inch square section wood. The scenic profile was supported on quarter inch formers every few inches. This type of construction is lightweight, strong and quiet. It also allows scenery below track level as in an embankment.

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Herbert,

 

My 00 gauge layout 'Crewlisle' is built on baseboards built 45 years ago.  Over the last 30 years it has been assembled/disassembled for many exhibitions & the baseboards are still as strong, flat & level as the day they were built.  And what miraculous material did I use - Sundaela!  Perhaps the main reason for their longevity is that the layout is in a spare bedroom.

 

The frames are 50 x 25 softwood; external corners are dovetailed, glued & pinned; inside stiffener joints are cross halving joints, glued & pinned; the external frames are NOT cross-halved but retain their full 50mm depth along their length to retain their maximum strength.  The Sundaela is 15mm thick & is glued & pinned directly to the framework.  It has made cutting holes for motors, etc. & for inserting track pins easy.

 

If I was starting again I would probably use 6 or 8mm ply.  With Sundaela you require stiffening at about 300mm between centres, with ply about 500mm.  To build Sundaela boards you require to be a skilful woodworker to cut joints & accurate assembly of the framework.  These skills are in short supply these days!

 

Peter

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Herbert,

 

My 00 gauge layout 'Crewlisle' is built on baseboards built 45 years ago.  Over the last 30 years it has been assembled/disassembled for many exhibitions & the baseboards are still as strong, flat & level as the day they were built.  And what miraculous material did I use - Sundaela!  Perhaps the main reason for their longevity is that the layout is in a spare bedroom.

 

The frames are 50 x 25 softwood; external corners are dovetailed, glued & pinned; inside stiffener joints are cross halving joints, glued & pinned; the external frames are NOT cross-halved but retain their full 50mm depth along their length to retain their maximum strength.  The Sundaela is 15mm thick & is glued & pinned directly to the framework.  It has made cutting holes for motors, etc. & for inserting track pins easy.

 

If I was starting again I would probably use 6 or 8mm ply.  With Sundaela you require stiffening at about 300mm between centres, with ply about 500mm.  To build Sundaela boards you require to be a skilful woodworker to cut joints & accurate assembly of the framework.  These skills are in short supply these days!

 

Peter

Fully agree with you, point to note when I started building baseboards, even an electric drill was a luxury, I didn't have or could not afford a circular saw till mid 80's, one just had simple hand tools, hand saw, screwdriver, bits and a brace, hence sundeala was main baseboard material cause it was easy to cut with a hand saw, try cutting 8'x4' ply by hand straight.

 

Secondly if sundeala starts to be affect by damp chances are rest of your layout will be suffering too, cardboard building structures are going to deteriorate far quicker than sundeala, then there's the stock on your layout, metal axles rust, added to that if you use peco track and points, the point springs rust, so do the solenoid on the point motors.

 

I've had layouts both in attics, garages and sheds, it's not the extremes of temperature but lack of ventilation which I consider main reason for damp, good flow of air is required.

 

Finally both ply and sundeala needs bracing, I've used both in the past 1 foot or 300mm, I found 9mm ply more likely to dip in centre than 9mm sundeala, I tried a bend test once and found ply bent more, I used a ply section once in the attic, the wife reckoned she could hear trains on that section on the ground floor such was the noise shuttering though the house.

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What sort of 9mm ply do you find flexes more than Sundeala board? My experiences to date suggest that Sundeala has no structural integrity whatsoever whereas ply is reasonably rigid and very acceptable. I have even used 6mm ply to support gradients on a space frame layout and found that superior to Sundeala.

 

The next layout which will be 4m x 3m and which I am about to start once I have completed room insulation will be 9mm ply - Sundeala will not be anywhere near it and probably no cork either as you loose any benefits once you ballast the track.

 

Just my views, but I would like to know why you think ply isn’t rigid enough

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A recent development over here - perhaps even a re-invention -  is to use pink insulation foam.  It is lightweight and comes in various thicknesses and grades.  Just looked at my local builders store and it is available in half inch and 2 inch thick by 4'x8' ($15 and $37).  Brand is Foamular by Owens Corning.  I have not tried it but I should think a 2" sheet would be fairly rigid - a 2'x4' board may only need a support halfway along.  An embankment could easily be stuck on top with a 2" strip and the board carved to represent scenic undulations, rivers, etc.  Higher ground is just more layers.  It is too soft to take pins so everything has to be stuck down using a compatible adhesive - spirit based adhesives will just melt it but the supplier will know what to use.

 

In fact I think I am selling myself on the idea for my next O-16.5 GVT layout.......

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A recent development over here - perhaps even a re-invention - is to use pink insulation foam. It is lightweight and comes in various thicknesses and grades. Just looked at my local builders store and it is available in half inch and 2 inch thick by 4'x8' ($15 and $37). Brand is Foamular by Owens Corning. I have not tried it but I should think a 2" sheet would be fairly rigid - a 2'x4' board may only need a support halfway along. An embankment could easily be stuck on top with a 2" strip and the board carved to represent scenic undulations, rivers, etc. Higher ground is just more layers. It is too soft to take pins so everything has to be stuck down using a compatible adhesive - spirit based adhesives will just melt it but the supplier will know what to use.

 

In fact I think I am selling myself on the idea for my next O-16.5 GVT layout.......

You describe what I am also thinking about.

 

I am considering 9mm ply for strength over a 400mm frame topped with 25mm of this foam - we call it Celotex, Kingspan or Xtratherm over here.

 

The 25mm cover will deaden any sound, provide some ability to take scenery below the track height and yet with only 34mm between track and the bottom of the baseboard it won’t cause issues for point motors (DCC Concepts).

 

Any thoughts or potential drawbacks to this solution?

 

Iain

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Ok, so naming convention aside what are the thoughts on the viability of this solution - especially on the longevity of the insulation foam over plywood as a solution to reducing noise?

 

I would not be concerned about longevity - it is used in the building trade for wall, floor and ceiling insulation so I would expect it to last several decades even with the temperature gradient it would likely see through the (2") thickness (possibly 100 deg F).  Use as a baseboard would see uniform temperatures (both sides) although possibly over the same range depending upon storage/running conditions.

 

Slow acting point motors like Cobalt or Tortoise need to be mounted below the turnout onto something fairly firm.  I think I would not bother about mounting the foam onto a ply sheet.  I would use the 2" foam over a frame and mount the track on 1/4" ply cut to the shape of the track formation, ie the bottom of the ballast shoulder, and stuck onto the top of the foam.  Clearance holes could be cut into the foam and the motors mounted under the 1/4" ply in the usual way.  I'm sure the foam under the ply would deaden the noise quite well. 

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Others will no doubt correct me but Sundeala seems to me to be just expensive low density fibre board. My first two fixed layouts were topped with 1/2 inch chipboard - a heavy and tough material.  The latest layout has been in existence since around 2007 and is topped with 1/2inch MDF.  It is kept warmish and dry and isn't moved.  I used 2 x 1 inch bracing at a maximum of 12 inch spacing.  In retrospect I should have paid more attention to sourcing the bracing.  It treally should be well seasoned to avoid warping.  I don't use underlay and I don't get any drumming - in fact I get complements on YouTube because of the clickety click noise.

 

Each to their own - it helps when you have done it before and can correct the mistakes you made last time!

 

Ray

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