greenglade Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 Sorry to hear that David... it's all very well cross-checking which can be done to some degree but when building something as complicated as a steam locomotive, I defy anyone to be able to read through all of the drawings with thousands of dimensions and pick out each and every error, like most things in life, you tend to find them when they bite you...;) Upwards and onward, as they say, hope you sort it soon.... Cheers Pete 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 Clearly, I was having one of those days yesterday as I thought it was Friday and hence why I posted an 'end of week' update?.. hmm... going mad he is...lol Ok, so I had one more day to play with and made the most of it, I mentioned yesterday that I had started to clean up the bore faces and that is what i started with this morning. I machined down the face with the arc just touching the steam chest and then widened the cutter enough to allow the cover to sit flush, this is course had to be cranked by hand. The picture shows the first one done bar a little tidying where the outer arc stopped, this was done after this picture using a sharp chisel and file. Next job was to transfer all of the cover holes to their respective cylinders and tap 6BA, I won't show pictures of that as it's the same as the middle cylinder but will show this picture to show why the relief valves have to be outboard. As can be seen, inboard they would foul the front mudguard. and lastly, both front covers held on with temporary screws... Next week I have a fair list of what I'd like to get done. I will cut up some 6BA stainless studding (hope I have enough), deburr the front face threads and fit the covers properly. I bought nickel plated nuts as used on the middle cylinder but may need to use smaller to allow for the cover to sit over them, I'll have a better idea once the studs are fitted. I also need to drill tap the 3/16x40tpi draincock holes and the rear 7/32x40tpi relief valve hole. Once those are done I plan to put the smokebox in place and work out where the steam pipe entries need to be in the cylinders, I can then drill those, the 4 mounting holes around them for the steam pipe flange I'll do once the flange has been made. Well that should get me started, I'll need to think of what to do on Tuesday... haha.. yeh right.. see you then guys Pete Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=144#ixzz5kEzQlQcB 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted April 9, 2019 Author Share Posted April 9, 2019 Afternoon all Well, I got most of what I planned to do for this update, just have the steam pipe holes to do. First up, now that I had transferred all of the mounting holes was to remove the spigot's on the rear of the covers. The small dia spigot was cut off with a hacksaw and the larger dia spigot ( used to help align the cover with the bore) was machined off using the outside jaws. The first picture shows this, it was a relief to see that the blind holes that I had drilled for the central mounting bolt for the shield have remained 'blind' after machining the spigots off. I also machined up two plugs to fill the wrongly drilled relief valve holes, I didn't take a picture of this as it's just simple turning/threading. Here's the right-hand cylinder with the cover off and showing the plug fitted, also the long stud in the middle which will be shortened once I have made the shields. From pictures, there is very little thread showing once the nut is fitted to hold the shield which I will try to emulate. And lastly, for today (nice and short this update), I have placed the cylinder back in its position to check all looks good. I was also happy here to see that the cover studs do not foul the flange bolts. Other jobs done are to drill/tap both the draincock holes and the rear relief valve hole, 3/16 x 40 and 7/32 x 40 TPI respectively. The first job for tomorrow will be to put in place the running boards and plot the exact position for the main steam pipes into the cylinders. As the boards with their holes for said pipes are already finished this job shouldn't take too long, good job as some may recall that I moved my smokebox back 1/8" further than Don has drawn to match the prototype. Not that this affects anything here as I haven't drilled the steam pipe holes into the smokebox yet, another job to do very soon. I will then go over both cylinders and tidy any bits that need it. I may then take a look at the 5 (two different sizes) steam chest covers, I have the bronze bar but not the flat section for the guides, nor do I have the 1" bar for the liners which I may do in CI. My youngest son said he may be able to sort these out for me, good job, as bronze flat bar of the size required isn't cheap. Next update soon guys... Pete 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted April 12, 2019 Author Share Posted April 12, 2019 Afternoon all I have 12 pictures to get through today so best get on with it.. First up, was the outside cylinder steam entry holes, as planned I marked the position on the cylinder and then I placed the running boards, both lower and upper in place. At first, when I looked at this I wondered if something was wrong but on checking the drawings I could see that the steam pipe isn't central to the running board hole, I'm sure that I will discover the reason why later, most likely to give plenty of clearance for the steam pipe as it curves in towards the smokebox as one would expect. Here's the picture to show the lay of the land so to speak. Please ignore the bad paint, I've already described the reason for this and as stated before this will be redone, hopefully, later this year. Don shows a 30-degree angle for the steam entry into the cylinder, this is of course angled towards the front. I held each cylinder against the angle bracket and using a digital angle gauge set each in turn for 30-degrees, the gauge was calibrated with the mill bed first. Here the first cylinder is having it's opening hole drilled. And here's the second cylinder now being opened up to 8 mm using an end mill, drawing shows 5/16 but the closest I had was this which is only 0.07mm wider so no big deal. So, here we are with both steam entries drilled and checked again for position. Next up, steam ports for the main bores, IIRC Don states file a flat on the edge of the bore, drill 3 No.22 holes in line and then finish off with a mill, I do things a little different, first, though, I needed a 4mm long series end mill which didn't have. Not to be beaten I dug out some BMS hex, cut to a length that would give me enough clearance but also not compromise it's rigidity. Centre drilled a 4mm hole and placed a 4mm endmill into it securing with IIRC Loctite 640 which is a very fast setting high strength retainer. The picture shows the item in question, before it cured I checked for runout of which there was none, job done... Now, the way I did the ports and this is a little different to the middle cylinder is to mark out their position for width, place the endmill further inside the bore by about 1mm than it needs to be and just let it kiss the bore. Since the cylinder is placed at a 35% angle (this was the angle that I decided would work best) I could engage one edge of the cutter working my way down slowly until just half of the blade cut a flat edge, I then bring the cutter out towards the front to it's final 'Y' position, 'X' start and finish positions were also noted. I then remove the endmill, now using a drill, much smaller then N0.22 but large enough not to impede the 'no cut' area of the endmill, move it in a little from one end of 'X' and drill right through into the chest below. I make a note of the 'X' position for said hole, refit the endmill into the chuck and plunge cut approx 30 thou, move carefully along the 'X' axis in both positions to the start-finish plots. I continue doing this until I break through to the steam chest below, picture shows the mill having just broken through. And this photo shows the moment when I can breath again as if I had misjudged the angle (nothing given on the drawings) I could very easily have cut into the two rims either side of the cavity which the liners fit tightly into and of course the liner ports all sit within the two rims. happy days...I have placed the cutter deeper so that you can see it easily, the small mark is where the cutter had been at and as you can see, there isn't a lot of room for error. Here's the finished port, now I made a silly mistake when drilling the pilot hole, I completely forgot about the extended drill that I made for the middle cylinder and just went ahead with a normal centre drill, totally forgetting about fouling the studs and yes as you can see i broke a stud...don't you just love this hobby... So, after a few chosen words had been said, I took a closer look at the situation, there was just a small amount of the stud protruding from the cylinder. using a thin Dremel cutting disk, I cut a small groove into the stud but not enough to mess up the important sealing face below. I did this in two stages, cut a small groove, unscrewed a couple of turns and then cut a deeper groove now that I had more stud showing. I'm happy to report that what could have set me back for some time took no more than a few minutes to fix, I was also thanking myself for only using a thread sealant and not a locker or retainer, it would have been a different story if I had done so. moving on I then needed to take a look at machining the steam chest covers, my son had kindly supplied me with a 4 1/2" length of 2" PB102 bronze which is a lot bigger than the 1.250 required. On looking at this lovely piece of metal it dawned on me that it may just be possible to get not only the 5 covers from it but also the 3 pistons, the thing was though, that it wasn't long enough if I parted it to make the two different dia parts seperately as i wouldn't be able to hold them. So, I first faced and then machined a 2" length to just over 1.750, swapped ends, centre drilled the other end and between chuck and live centre machined the rest down to just over 1.250, well 1.254 to be precise. I then swapped the ends again and was ready for doing the pistons first. My reasoning for doing it this way was that whatever was left over from doing the pistons could then be turned down to match the other end ready for the covers. The pistons are done with most of the work to the rear, there is a 1/2" wide ( I made mine 11mm to ensure good clearance on the piston gland)tapered spigot that's 3/32 deep. This, in turn, is drilled/tapped 1/4" x 40 TPI and then has a counterbore 1/4" wide and 1/4" deep for the piston rod to lock against. Once this was complete it just needed to be parted with an overall width of 1/2". Last picture for tonight shows the 3 piston blanks, two rears and one showing the plain front. I can't finish these until I have made the stainless steel rods, then each piston will be securely locked to its rod, Don states to screw it on and the machining operations will lock it in place, I will for extra security also use a strong retainer so that they are even better secured. When fitted to the rods each piston will need it's ring slot machined to spec for the 'O' ring chosen and it's front face finished. Next week I will start with the steam chest covers, I still don't have the flat bronze required but I can do all of the turnings and plot the mounting holes too, once those are transferred to the cylinders and the studs cut and fixed I will give each cylinder a final tidy before painting with a special auto paint that i have. Once that lot is done, except for needing to do the slides, I'll be getting close to fitting the middle cylinder for the last time and then a whole host of things open up for me. The final stages of the smokebox (which needs repainting) can be done and perhaps making the steam pipes ready for the outside cylinders too. All this and the boiler will be in progress in the not too distant future t, Adam (Cro fittings) has received the steam valve/clacks ready for the boiler and the manifold is also in the works so to speak... It should be a very productive year... more soon guys Pete 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted April 18, 2019 Author Share Posted April 18, 2019 Good afternoon all I only have two pictures today and one of those is just to show what's being made. The car has kept me busy and, well, and the suns out which means a little work in the garden. However I have managed to do all of the turning operations for the steam chest covers, I'll have to leave these for now until I get the flat bronze required to finish. Here's the drawing, there are 5 covers, 3 long and 2 short, the long covers being for the front. At this stage, most operations are the same except for the hole through the middle which is a No. 12 for the front and No. 22 for the rear. All have a front 3/16 recessed 5/16 x 40 TPI boss to receive the gland nuts when I get around to making them. And a photo just to show the parts now machined, the middle cover has a flat edge one side to clear the frames, I may do the same on the other side as I note SNG has this today, makes sense as it gives better clearance for the main cylinder cover, especially considering the difficulty in getting access to this once fully built. Now I may make a start tomorrow on plotting the cover holes and then transferring them to the cylinders, or I may just sit outside enjoying the sun with a cold beer? I wonder which option I'll choose?... More soon Pete 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted April 24, 2019 Author Share Posted April 24, 2019 good afternoon everyone well, I gave in to the sun and beer over the long weekend, no real surprise there, the car got a good polish too but now back on 4472... Continuing with the steam chest covers, the next task was to plot and drill the holes for mounting to the cylinders. These are at 1 3/32 PCD and they are not eveningly spaced due to the guides that will be silver soldered to them later. Holes are 0,50,90,130,180,230,270 and 310 degrees. Also of note is that '0' (or 180) must be at the top when transferred to the cylinder as the guides need to be vertical. This will become clearer later. The middle cylinder doesn't have 90 or 270 holes due to the flat sides, Don has shown a hole at 270 but I have chosen to follow full size as seen on SNG today for the reasons given in the last update. The first picture shows one of the side cylinder covers. A couple of pictures to show the middle cylinder, here can be seen the last hole being tapped, note that I have reused the angled jig to hold the cylinder vertical for the steam chest which of course is 7 degrees to the cylinder bore. and here's the middle cylinder showing the (in this case) 6 mounting holes and the cover lying in front. Lastly, a picture to show that all 5 covers have now reached the same stage... Tomorrow I'll make a start on cutting/fixing the 8BA stainless studs which will replace the round head screws seen in the pictures. That should keep me busy for a few hours but at least I can sit down for this... Thanks for reading guys Pete 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted April 25, 2019 Author Share Posted April 25, 2019 Evening chaps It seems that I may be a bit preoccupied for a while with fitting a kitchen that some of my sons bought over this evening so I'll show what I did today or I may forget it later. As planned I made a start on the 8BA studs and managed to get the middle cylinder done before the kitchen interrupted play 'so to speak' As far as machining is concerned I think the middle cylinder casting is all done except for drilling/tapping a few holes to hold the slides which is hardly machining per se. Yes, I have the liners/valves, drain-cocks, relief valves and pistons to make/fit but other than the valve liners being a tight fit everything else is just 'plug and play'. As the middle cylinder is so advanced I decided to try out the special paint that my eldest son gave me after I saw him spraying it onto a car inter-cooler, I was impressed with it's finish and stated abilities and so he gave me a can to try which I now have. For those interested, the paint concerned is one of the Eastwood range of specials for the automotive industry. Here's the rear of the cylinder, as can be seen, I have left the slide-bar support and side tops that the saddle sits on free of paint. Now the front, the steam chest cover has been left unpainted as I still need to make the bronze guides and silver solder them to the cover, hence why the cover remains unpainted. And back in the frames, I do like the paint finish and the fact that I still have a few things to do to it will show me how tough the coating is to handling. The outside cylinders are a long way off from being painted as I still need to fit the piston gland and machine the slide-bar support face to size. Also, an extra for these is to drill/tap the holes to hold the cladding around them. Hopefully, I'll be able to do bits and pieces over the next few weeks while I get this kitchen fitted, we shall see.. Cheers Pete 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 9, 2019 Author Share Posted May 9, 2019 Hi everyone I'm still deep in Kitchen land but do as hoped have a small update for you all. Today was a very important day and that was due to the boiler shell being test fitted to 4472's frames for the first time. It was a great day, Paul (Southern Boilers) spent a good few hours with me discussing the various requirements for the boiler and checking for it's fit which I have to say is very good. I do have a couple of pictures to show how things look and just for today have left them in their full size, I believe that she's finally looking like a steam locomotive and with Paul's boiler she is not only going to look the part but will steam like the prototype too. Even without the cleading she looks like a Gresley locomotive, yes I am a very happy man and getting very excited about receiving the finished boiler in due course. The rear splasher has been removed as I still need to cut out a segment to clear the boiler barrel and I also need to remove a little material from the running board inner edge around the firebox, both of these were a known fact and have been mentioned in previous updates. The first picture show's her from the rear quarter, or at least as close as I could get to the rear. And here's a view from the front, doesn't she look the part?.. ok I'm a little bias, or perhaps a lot?.. So there she is, I hope to get back on her very soon. For anyone out there who's in the market for a boiler, I can highly recommend Paul Tompkins of Southern Boilers, IMHO, the best out there, both in quality and customer service.., is was great seeing you again sir.... cheers Pete Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=147#ixzz5nRS6Idan 7 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack374 Posted May 9, 2019 Share Posted May 9, 2019 What a stunning loco! I’ve enjoyed reading all the updates you post, with detailed explanations of how you machine various parts...very interesting for a first year engineering degree apprentice! The results are superb, I look forward to seeing her finished and in steam Thanks, Jack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 9, 2019 Author Share Posted May 9, 2019 Thanks, Jack, I look forward to her first steaming too, got a few years more work to do yet but getting there... once the boiler is finished the fun can really begin...:) Pete 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggit Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 Hi Pete . Linked to an earlier post while searching for pictures and drawings of this great locomotive .Have since read every page with a smile on my face . I am an industrial sewing and quilting machine engineer . Now self- employed , praise the lord . I have a mad plan to accurately model and to a degree . Animate the Flying Scotsman . I am purely an amateur when it comes to 3D modelling , but i have been dabbling for a good few years now . I can find no shortage of photographic reference material for the finished locomotive . I have purchased both the Haynes books . One on the Scotman and the other on the Tornado . What i really would like . Is a set of accurate drawings . I am a stickler for things being right . Probably a good thing when most of my time is spent re-setting and repairing , pretty intricate timing mechanisms . I have already been in touch with the NRM . About getting a copy of the relevant engineering drawings copied . The other option i am considering , having been engrossed by this very blog . Is wondering whether a set of just as accurate scale drawings would be enough to achieve the end result . Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated . I have checked out the drawing set available from AJ Reeves . Are there other sets available to your knowledge which i should also be looking into ? As i said , this may well be viewed as a mad thing to want to do . It is purely for my own pleasure and no timescale applies . Any info or thoughts would be greatly received . Not just from yourself but anyone reading this . All that is left to say is . What a great job you have done so far and i am another person who will be eagerly following your progress . Cheers for now , John . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 11, 2019 Author Share Posted May 11, 2019 Hi John Thank you for your kind comments, an accurate 3D model of 4472 sounds like a worthwhile endeavour no matter how long it may take, good luck in your project sir. Regarding drawings, there are a number of designs out there, Michael Breeze and Clarksons to name two, however there are no other drawings that come close to Don Young's 'Doncaster' for both detail and accuracy. I can say this with some confidence and experience gained over the last 10 years. Anything not covered in Don's drawings can be found at the NRM as you already know. However works drawings for this loco are vast in number so perhaps just choose those that are not fully covered in Don's design due to physics, IE, they can not be scaled and still work in minature. The biggest example of this will be the boiler but if you are just modelling the outline and not the internal structure, Don's drawing on sheet 1 will do the trick. Feel free to ask any specific questions during your project, choose a time period to model her as she has changed a lot over the years... Good luck Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggit Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 Hi Pete , Thanks for the swift response . Hope i`m not dragging you away from important stuff . And i think we all know i`m not talking about the kitchen . The internals of the boiler are not on my original idea , but who knows... The full motion of valves and all cylinders is the main draw for me . That much steel moving that fast is just mind boggling to me . Even more so when you read the weights and RPM`s involved . From what you are saying . I believe that initially the Doncaster set , will be the way to start , and see how i get on . As for time period . The thirties period engine . Seems to be the one i instantly see in my minds eye . But i really like the green main wheel rims . So we shall have to see . When i have something to show . I will share it here . I hope you don`t regret your offer of knowledge when i need it . But that is probably a ways down the track yet . Now you`d best get back to that ..... important stuff . Cheers for now, John . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 11, 2019 Author Share Posted May 11, 2019 Ah....if you want fully lined LNER wheels I'm afraid you are very limited....for LNER days this limits you to 1923 and a few months early 1924....from that period on for the redt of her career she had polished rims only. She may have had lined wheels in early BR days when still in apple green?, I can't recall....other than that the longest period with lined wheels is during preservation from 1963. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 11, 2019 Author Share Posted May 11, 2019 good evening chaps As you know, I'm busy doing some DIY but want to keep you guys in touch with what's going on behind the scenes and so I have asked Paul and have been granted permission to show some of the progress being made on the boiler. No pictures for tonight but I can share a modified drawing showing the planned layout for the crown stays. For those familiar with Don's design, you'll know that there are 4 rows of crown stays, Paul will be fitting 6 into 4472's boiler as can be seen here. There will be a number of changes to the design as I'm sure was clear to some with the barrel shell, other visible differences will mostly be on the backhead and these will be explained later. To begin with, the two holes low down in the throat plate corners are wash out plugs to remove scale from the lowest points in the boiler. cheers Pete Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=147#ixzz5nefMXHEq 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mswjr Posted May 12, 2019 Share Posted May 12, 2019 Paul is a good bloke, He has done my last 2 boilers, and my 3rd sometime after yours is finished, Top bloke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 12, 2019 Author Share Posted May 12, 2019 He certainly is that David...I have complete confidence in his boiler...:) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 Continuing with the 'behind the scenes' theme, this time it's from Adam (Cro Fittings), the good sir was up very late last night drawing up this beautiful scale manifold for me as Paul will need it very soon to machine up a matching bush. so here you are chaps, a first look at the Cro Fittings 'manifold' for Gresley pacific's and I suspect some other large Gresley designs too. Pure art I say... Pete 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted May 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) On 11/05/2019 at 16:59, Boggit said: Hi Pete . Linked to an earlier post while searching for pictures and drawings of this great locomotive .Have since read every page with a smile on my face . I am an industrial sewing and quilting machine engineer . Now self- employed , praise the lord . I have a mad plan to accurately model and to a degree . Animate the Flying Scotsman . I am purely an amateur when it comes to 3D modelling , but i have been dabbling for a good few years now . I can find no shortage of photographic reference material for the finished locomotive . I have purchased both the Haynes books . One on the Scotman and the other on the Tornado . What i really would like . Is a set of accurate drawings . I am a stickler for things being right . Probably a good thing when most of my time is spent re-setting and repairing , pretty intricate timing mechanisms . I have already been in touch with the NRM . About getting a copy of the relevant engineering drawings copied . The other option i am considering , having been engrossed by this very blog . Is wondering whether a set of just as accurate scale drawings would be enough to achieve the end result . Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated . I have checked out the drawing set available from AJ Reeves . Are there other sets available to your knowledge which i should also be looking into ? As i said , this may well be viewed as a mad thing to want to do . It is purely for my own pleasure and no timescale applies . Any info or thoughts would be greatly received . Not just from yourself but anyone reading this . All that is left to say is . What a great job you have done so far and i am another person who will be eagerly following your progress . Cheers for now , John . Many years ago when I had much more energy than now I toyed with the idea of making one of these. I still have a complete set of Don Young drawings except for No 1, the GA I believe, old but still very readable and usable. If you are interested let me know, can send pics. Edited May 13, 2019 by PhilH 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggit Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Hi Phil , i have just messaged you on your kind offer . Let me know if you don`t receive it . And so as not to hijack or reroute this thread ..... Hi Pete , for my own curiosity . What software was used to draw and render above manifold ? And you are correct it is a work of art . Cheers both for now , John . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 I think it was Fusion 360 John, either that or Solid works... I shall inquire Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 15, 2019 Author Share Posted May 15, 2019 Paul sent me some photo's tonight, I have to say this is going to be one superbly made boiler, hope they whet your appetite, they certainly did mine... I don't think that I need to say anything else, the pictures speak for themselves... truly excellent work... I can't wait for the next update... Pete Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=147#ixzz5o1H3H2nT 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 Good afternoon everyone Hot of the press we have two photo's direct from Southern Boilers showing the excellent work on the combustion chamber tubes, Paul has been a busy man... cheers Pete 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 And we have another picture to look at folks, this time the front tube plate.... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenglade Posted May 22, 2019 Author Share Posted May 22, 2019 I tell you what, it's all go tonight, Adam (Cro fittings) has just sent me the finished rendering for the manifold that he's been working on for me, to say that it's excellent doesn't do it any justice at all. Judge for yourselves chaps... First, the reference ... and now the render which will be 3D printed and then cast in bronze... it looks superb....well done Adam, thank you sir... Pete 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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