4472 Flying Scotsman 5"

[greenglade]

Hi David

 

Yes, the column/head setup wouldn't work...you don't have a fine enough control when dealing in microns. My setup could be improved as mentioned, I may do so one day but as stated as long as you don't knock the arm the reading is stable, certainly for most machining that involves 'Z' axis.

I still have the old battery scale, when I find the time or the need (whichever comes first) I'll set it up on the lathe tailstock to give a more precise measurement for drilling exercises.

 

A DRO transforms my lathe and mill, they are rigid machines and can certainly do accurate work but you can't rely on the dials for measurement as they most certainly aren't accurate, only by a fraction of a thou but that can add up over length. I chose this DRO because of it's display, I have only done basic measurements using a DRO, nothing taxing, and no more than touched CAD many years ago. This can show me what I have inputted into the unit and looks like it can do most if not all the complicated stuff found on top end DRO's. We shall see how I get on and how many of the functions I get to use, I'm looking forward to it...

 

Pete

[greenglade]

I have been slowly adding to my reference material for 4472 but there was one book that I had till now failed to find, this is the LNER 'The locomotiveman's Pocket Book' I have a similar book from the 50's which of course is BR but really wanted to find a genuine LNER version as it would only have info that relates directly to LNER practices and equipment. Last week I found what I wanted, not only is it LNER but it was also issued to its first owner in 1939...perfect! It's 'pocket' size 6x4 inches and in perfect condition, I have a few pictures to share, there are many more coloured illustrations within.

Front cover



Name of owner and year issued..



A nice loose slip inside showing when the owner was promoted from cleaner to fireman 1941, it's interesting to note how many shifts he completed to be promoted.



Some nice illustrations showing good and bad fires,,,







And lastly, there are a number of drawings like these which are invaluable for getting an idea of the various pipework involved, my other BR book has a good diagram for the braking on a Gresley Pacific which I'll use to help with pipework configuration.



Pete


Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=130#ixzz5SV3ym6U7

[dajt]

His name was 'Stoker'?

[greenglade]

His name was 'Stoker'?

 

Yes..I clocked that...

[greenglade]

Evening all

As suspected I've been a little busy with some DIY of late with plenty more to go but I did finish those simple washers today...well finished one with the others requiring one final machining step to join it. Did I say simple?..I wish...don't get me wrong they aren't difficult but certainly are a lot more involved than a normal washer.

First up though is a follow on from the steel rope that I showed last time, today I received the copper tube to be used as the outer sleeve for the drain cock Bowden cable. I think that this will work perfectly, the 0.5mm wire is a nice free moving fit within the 1.6mm copper tube, I'm looking forward to fabricating the rest of the parts required. A picture to show the tube/wire..



Now to those **** washers...I apologize for the quality of the first picture in this sequence but included it to show the step...there was a few steps before this though, first was to turn down a length of BMS to 11/32 dia and then drill a No.21 hole down it's length, the length of which was increased as machined washers were parted from the stock. Next using a ground-up parting tool the end was faced, tool advanced along X by 0.196 and a start on parting was made but not completed. This distance was the thickness of the washer plus the width of the tool. That then brings us to this very bad picture, this stage involved another ground tool, this has two radii curves, one is 1/8th for the bottom of the washer (front face of the job as held in the chuck) and the other, smaller, (size not critical) is for the top rad of the washer. Picture shows the 1/8th rad being machined...



With the front face done the tool is then advanced along to the cut already started by the parting tool, here I use the tool to cut both the front face of the next washer and the rear face of the first, I didn't use it to part as the tip isn't long enough.



With the two profiles machined the parting tool was used to part off the first washer, repeat, wash and rinse for all 12...



I now needed to machine the scallop to fit over the top leaf grip. I did this using a 3mm ball nose cutter, machining to a depth of 0.85mm which was just enough to give the washer a little rocking motion when sitting on the grip.



With the bottom of the washer completed, it was time for the top, this involves a slot at 90 degrees to the scallop below, to do this I used the same 3mm ball nose to machine a slot into a suitable piece of perspex ensuring that it's width is less than the washer dia. I then cut a short length of suitably sized BMS to sit in the slot/scallop. This gave me a register for each washer to be held in the machine vice ensuring the scallop is at 90 degrees to the yet to be machined slot.



Using a 1/4" endmill a slot was machined as described.



Last picture to show why the 1/4" slot is required, as shown it's to allow the spring hanger to lock into it, something I didn't realise until reaching this stage. The slot is central to the hole, it just looks off due to a shadow on the right.



I hope to finish the others tomorrow, after that it will be on to the 12 shock absorbers, another 5 minute job...not!....

Pete


 

[greenglade]

Hi guys


My apologies for little progress in recent weeks, I'm a little preoccupied with some DIY but hope to get back into full swing very soon. there has been a couple of developments though that I can report.

First is regarding 4472's brass trims that were fitted to her splashers for the Wembley Empire exhibition in 1924, I had discovered that these remained with her throughout LNER, AFAIK they may still be fitted today although painted over. What I didn't know was any details as to whether the original splashers were Brass and that these just had the paint removed and polished for the exhibition or whether they were added sections. I have now found written evidence that these were separate trims that were added, I don't yet know how they were fixed although some pictures from the 30's seem to show some screws around the middle of the arc, perhaps the trims were attached using brass CSK screws?... The images are poor but I'll see what I can find out, if all else fails these could just be bonded to the splashers once the painting is finished. 

Anyway, while at the Midlands ME a couple of weeks back (the best show for me this year, got some nice bits)I spoke to Malcolm of Model engineers Laser who kindly agreed to cut some trims to match the CAD drawings supplied to him on my behalf by a good friend John Baguley (he of 2 1/2 gauge fame) in 0.5mm brass. Today I received the brass trims which can be seen in the only picture for today.



The other point of interest is, for me, a very big step in 4472's build. After much thought, I have commisioned Paul Tompkins of 'Southern boiler works LTD' to build 4472's boiler. I had considered building this myself and in fact, had discussed this with Paul who kindly offered his help/advice when I spoke to him at the 'Pacific Rally' in Nottingham 2016. However, I think it's better to leave it to the man who IMHO produces the best boilers out there. I think the model deserves such craftsmanship and those who have boilers of this size will be well aware of the costs involved of such a boiler and also the risk of things going wrong. I struggle to lift heavy weights these days and the thought of trying to work on such a large lump alone tells me that it would be foolhardy to even try. 

That's it for today, not an update as such but at least letting you guys know what's been going on in recent weeks, I hope to get back into the workshop soon. I'm all organised for the upcoming winter months with a nice new heater and a new thermal mug. 

Cheers

Pete

 

[Mike Boucher]

The other point of interest is, for me, a very big step in 4472's build. After much thought, I have commisioned Paul Tompkins of 'Southern boiler works LTD' to build 4472's boiler. I had considered building this myself and in fact, had discussed this with Paul who kindly offered his help/advice when I spoke to him at the 'Pacific Rally' in Nottingham 2016. However, I think it's better to leave it to the man who IMHO produces the best boilers out there. I think the model deserves such craftsmanship and those who have boilers of this size will be well aware of the costs involved of such a boiler and also the risk of things going wrong. I struggle to lift heavy weights these days and the thought of trying to work on such a large lump alone tells me that it would be foolhardy to even try. 

 

Quick question:  Will the boiler be copper? steel? steel with copper tubes?

[greenglade]

evening folks

I've just checked when I last gave a proper update, 3rd Oct?.. that is very bad, lots of other things have been taking up my valuable time of late so I best get on. you may recall that my next job was to tackle the 12 main driver shock absorbers and although not yet finished they are very close. I have chosen to do the update now because of the lack of news from me of late and also due to how many pictures have built up during making these parts. So today I have 15 pictures to upload along with descriptions of 'what's what'.
I'll start with a picture of a couple of pieces of perspex which I have used through the various stages to hold the shocks in a fixed position in the machine vice during each machining stage. One is a simple stop and riser to set each block of steel at the desired height/position, the other is angled for machining the slope down each side from the middle of the top face. Things will become clearer as i work through this update.



a quick picture to show the 12 machined blanks ready for profiling, I have used what I had to hand which means the shocks will be a little under the 1/2" width, length is good at 3/4", the blocks shown here are a few thou over that as I need to taper the ends which is one of the last operations to do.



So to the first setup, as can be seen, I have used a clamp to hold a piece of flat steel as a 'stop' for the first operation, this involved drilling a hole in the middle of the block (remembering to ensure that the block was positioned for the top face (height and width are different). After plotting each edge with a finder, I made the first use of the new DRO's 1/2 setter for both X and Y axis... well it's got to be used... Shown is a centre drill which was followed up with a No. 12 drill, drawing states No. 10, which i'll cover later.



And all 12 blocks were so drilled..



Each block was then returned to the vice and placed against the same stop to have the 11/32 wide recess machined in the center. Don gives no length for this so I have machined it to a length that leaves enough metal on each end after allowing for the tapered ends. I can't recall the depth but it's enough to allow for the rubber insert that forms the 'shock' to fit inside.



Here's all 12 with their recesses machined.



I then needed to make the 12 metal inserts which trap the rubber within, these were all done by hand, the picture shows one shock with it's insert, first seperated...



And with the insert fitted..



Next up still, using the same stop, was to machine the concave section either side of the middle hump, i set the 'X' for the closet side to the stop and turned each block around for the second scallop machined with a suitable ball nose cutter. 



With each shock still held in the vice I then used the ball nose cutter to machine a small amount of each side of the length, this is a modification to the drawing which is required as when I machined the spring bracket I didn't machine the scallop right across the bottom of the bracket, IIRC I did this to make it easier for setting up each bracket for machining ( they are very odd shapes), it's of no consequence to its operation and won't be seen once fitted.



Next up was to angle the top face and for this, the second perspex stop was used which had been machined to an angle to hold each shock for the top face to be machined. I have shown the worse one to show what happens when you don't ensure there is no swarf left in the vice, actually i clear this for each operation but guess I missed a bit here, It's not as bad as it looks as the cutter is getting blunt and leaving a burr, it was soon cleaned up with a file but just goes to show what can happen when not paying enough attention, something that is more prone to happen when doing repetitive work, well it was for me..



Here's one machined both sides that didn't have any swarf trapped beneath it...



on the homeward stretch now, the shocks were then placed back in the horizontal stop with the metal and rubber inserts trapped within to have the No.12 hole drilled straight through. I forgot to take a picture of the rubber inserts, there are two 1/16 thick pieces of rubber in each shock absorber. After drilling the No. 12 right through ,the top alone was opened up to no.10 as per drawing.



I have fitted all of the shocks to the spring assemblies just so that I don't lose any of them while I finish each in turn to profile by hand, the lone shock in the foreground is the closest to completion. 



Lastly, a close up of the nearly finished shock absorber, as can be seen, I still have some cleaning up to do but to be fair the camera is much crueler than the eye which can't see most of these marks.



Next week I'll finish off the shocks and then I best start taking things apart again, I'll remove the cab, running boards, and smokebox reading for fitting the springs for the first time.While I'm doing this it would be prudent to machine the arcs in the axlebox slots and paint the lining on the wheels so it may take some time to fit the springs, we shall see.

more (very) soon..

Pete

Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=130#ixzz5WNtsrIJb

Edited November 9, 2018 by greenglade

[mswjr]

Nice work ,Glad i have only 4 on my loco,I bet your glad that they are nearly finished.

[greenglade]

yes, very glad, there are 32 all told, 16 on the tender and 4 on the trailing axle, those are a little more work as they are oval and not rectangular...these last 12 are the easy ones...

 

Pete

Edited November 9, 2018 by greenglade

[greenglade]

Just one solitary picture for today, the main driver springs are now finished bar a little polishing to remove the last marks and then I'll need to give them a coat of semi-gloss black paint after first giving them an acid 8 coating.



I will now get the chassis ready for the fitting of these springs, I'll first remove the cab, running boards, and smokebox and then find some help to turn the chaIsis over to remove the wheels. As mentioned before I have some machining to do on the axleboxes and the lining of the wheels to complete so I'll tackle these at the same time. Then hopefully I'll get back onto the cylinders...unless something else that I've forgotten comes to mind when fitting the springs...we shall see...

Thanks for looking in all

Pete

Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=131#ixzz5WjzdhGx9

[greenglade]

Evening all

This week I began taking everything apart and had planned to remove the wheels to finish their machining first, however, I thought it prudent to test fit the springs before painting and happy that I did. There's a hell of a lot of things going on under a Gresley Pacific to which I've barely touched on. The springs are fairly involved things, more so when it comes to fitting. The spring buckle and swivel had been fitted together with a drift fitted pin, the thing is I found it very difficult to fit the springs with the swivel in place, it looked possible but would be difficult and not something you'd want to have to remove when in service. Don stated that on full size there's a metal box around the pin to stop it falling out, from that, I read that the pin is pulled when removing the spring assembly, that would be impossible on the model with a drifted pin. So I took the decision to remove the pins and assemble the parts with a 6BA bolt and nut, I may at a later date turn up some studs with a nut either side as a better solution, the bolts will do for now.
The first picture shows the swivels fitted to the axleboxes on the rear driver, I had to remove the horn stays, lift the axle assembly partially out of the horns, drift out the pins in the axlebox, insert the swivel, replace the pin, lower the axle and then refit the horn stay.



Here we have all 6 springs fitted, this took some time but it was good to see that they fitted properly. When fully laden the springs sit above the spring hanger bracket with an exposed length of spring hanger shaft and the shock absorbers tucked in under the brackets, so there's a difference in C to C distance size between the bracket holes for the hangers and the springs themselves. You'll need to look back in my build to see the drawing that shows this better than I can describe.  edit: just noticed a shock absorber clocked 90 in this picture..note to self, pay more attention before taking photo's...

 

Here's a close up inside the frames of the rear driving axle, there is no weight on this axle as can be seen by the spring more or less sitting on the brackets, when laden there will be a gap between spring and bracket, the axle here is as low as it can go sitting on top of the horn stays as it's off the ground. You can also see what I'm saying about having not radiused the axlebox slots yet, thus they currently can't 'tilt', that will probably be the job for next week.



Lastly, how things look outside, it's easier to see here how currently there's very little weight on the main drivers, that will change when the weight doubles as the boiler is fitted to the frames.....   it's nice to have this stage done, once the axleboxes are finished along with the wheel lining I think that I can fit the wheel assemblies for the last time...I think?..



More next week

Pete

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by greenglade

[greenglade]

Good evening all

alas, this isn't an update, due to circumstances beyond my control I haven't been able to do any work in recent weeks, hopefully, things will be better in the new year. However, I didn't want Xmas to pass without me first wishing everyone that has been following my journey, those who have given me help and advice and perhaps also to those who have gained some insight into this hobby from my efforts a merry Xmas. This journey began 8 years ago when I published my first post on the Mech forum, a forum with much wealth and knowledge in all things 'Model engineering' I count many as friends, have met some in person with great friendships formed. In recent years I have also shared my story with RMWEB and FB and gained yet more enjoyment of this great hobby. A lot has happened since 2010 and there's still an awful lot more to do but any project, be it simple or complicated, is just a matter of building each part one step at a time, it's just that some shall we say take a little longer than others, it really depends on how far the individual wants to go in that search for realism, me, well I'm a certified nutter so yes I tend to go just a tad too far, or have I..

So plans/targets for next year? well, some will be aware that I recently took the decision to commission Paul Tompkins of 'Southern Boilers' fame to build the boiler for 4472, I see this as a very wise choice and know that the finished article will be the best that one can get. I will also be discussing with Paul ways of getting things on the backhead a little closer to scale, this I shall do in tandem with Adam (Cro fittings), plans are already afoot for that elusive scale backhead or close as, this story will be shared when parts are finished/working. Now, as Paul will be doing the boiler this gives me more time to get on with the other parts and for once I may be able to say that the halfway mark has been reached. I have 12-18 months before the boiler will be ready, during this time I will strive to try and get 4472 running on air, that's not a small task but possible, possible stumbling blocks could be whether I decided that I need to do the brakes, sanding gear, and pipework at the same time, now that is a very big task, one that is probably impossible in that timescale but may be prudent to do while 'in there' so to speak. I want to try and avoid stripping finished parts down just to do other parts that I should have done before. The pipework, for instance, is very involved, whether it's oil, water, steam or sand, not to mention Bowden cables... honestly, it seems the list is endless and why I say that I am 'halfway' and only just at that.


I wish everyone a very Merry Xmas, I thank you for following my build and for the advice that's been freely given and for which I very much appreciate. 

MERRY XMAS ALL...

Pete

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by greenglade

[tigerburnie]

Seasons Greetings to you Pete

[boxbrownie]

Ho Ho Ho........

[Grasshopper John]

All the best for Xmas and next year pete thanks for all the updates I know how long a journey it's been, I've read the whole of your thread on MECH

[greenglade]

Good day to all

First off an apology for no updates for so long, I had promised to do the next update very soon but alas my body decided otherwise and it's taken me weeks to recover, I did a little last week and today feeling fighting fit again have made a proper start and hopefully won't have anymore interruptions for a while, never if I had my way.

Last time I laid out my plans on what to do next, one of the jobs on the list was to radius the axlebox slots and that's what I have made a start on today, hopefully I'll get all 6 boxes machined by the weekend.

First picture to show the setup that I'm employing for this job, my order of doing things was to set the center of the rotary table with the head and the table itself being set so that the '0' dial reading is along the 'X' axis. The large piece of flat steel (IIRC it's 1/2" thick) was set parallel with the 'X' axis and the drilled hole was set to be central with the 'X and Y' that had been 'zero'd', this can also be used to reset without moving the table if anything moves. A line is drawn down the middle of the steel flat and a smaller piece of steel is clamped on top at 90 degree's to this (and of course checked with the column) for each axlebox to rest against along it's center line, a matching center line is drawn on each box axle center. The axlebox is then centered with this line and a third piece of steel is clamped along it's top edge so that I have a 90 degree box for placing each subsequent axlebox's into. Once happy, the axlebox is held in place with a tool clamp ready for machining. Hopefully, that all makes sense.




The next picture shows how the lines are matched to ensure the axle is in it's correct position. I can't do all of the boxes at this one setting for two reasons, first the front and rear flanges are different thicknesses and second, the box isn't symmetrical due to the lower section having the spring hanger swivel flange on it.



Here's the first box roughed out, as can bee seen a marker pen was used as a visual to see how much of the center was left, once I'm happy I'll make a note of the DRO setting and do the rest for this flange to match, there will be 4 setups due to the reasons given above, I'll hand finish the last couple of thou, not wanting to accidentally touch either the inner flange center or the slot with a cutter.




And here's all of the components involved in these axleboxes stripped ready for me to finish machining, the box lower left is the one seen in the privious pictures and you can just see the radius of the bottom flange.



That's it for today, it must be over 7 weeks since the last?.. As stated I hope to get all of the final machining on the axleboxes completed this week, I will also tidy up any machine marks that can still seen , re-oil and reassembly to the wheel sets. I may then take a look at making a jig for holding the wheels for the lining..

Thanks for looking in guys and again sorry for the delay.

Pete


 

[greenglade]

I must be on a roll, I thought that it would take me far longer than it has to finish machining the radius in the slots but no, just a few hours today, I must be feeling better...

Just a few pictures that hopefully is an end to the ' main axleboxes' machining processes. First picture is just to show the box reversed in the jig with the stop now closest to the camera for machining of the last two slot faces. I'm rather pleased with these managing to carefully machine down the slot radius leaving no ridge (tested on each with the corner of a metal rule) and also not touching the slot face itself, no filing needed them..



This view shows both sides of the slot now machined, for those not familiar with this particular axlebox, the top small central hole is for oil from the reservoir above to lubricate the horns. There is another on the other side and a slightly larger hole that goes straight down from the reservoir to the axle below, you can't see it here but will do in the next picture. The 3 holes below, two are the pins for holding the keep in place and the larger central hole is for the pin that holds the spring swivel in place, you'll be able to see this setup better in the pictures in the 'Main suspension' album.




A view of the various components that make up one of these boxes, the oil hole from the reservoir that I mentioned can just be seen, it's offset behind the axle centre to help with the flow onto the axle during forward rotation.



Lastly, a picture of the 3 axles back in their slots to check that they all tilt nicely which I'm very happy to confirm, I can't measure how much movement there is alone but it seems plenty. One thing that I had been a little concerned about was whether the wheels would foul the frames at full tilt once this operation had been completed, none of the wheelsets foul against anything so that's a relief. I will have to revisit this once the running boards are back on to check that the wheels don't touch the inside of the splashers, that's for another day.



Next job will be to line the wheels (including bogie sets) so that they can be refitted to the frames. I first need to make a jig but I have a cunning plan (as Baldrick would say) to save time which I'll reveal in the next update, well I will do unless I get sidetracked to another part of the model...

Thanks for looking in guys and please for the experts out there bear with me for trying to explain things which you guys know only too well, it's just my attempt to help those who may be new to the hobby.

Kind regards

Pete

Read more: http://modeleng.proboards.com/thread/5733/building-don-youngs-doncaster?page=132#ixzz5ct5TrsY4

Edited January 17, 2019 by greenglade

[tigerburnie]

Funny after doing this sort of work all my working life, now I'm retired I don't miss it a bit, more than happy to watch your work though  (I was not of course building steam engines, I might have missed that).

[greenglade]

Please do share what you used to do, my day job before retiring was also modeling/engineering, I couldn't live without doing it as a hobby...

[tigerburnie]

I began my apprenticeship as a draughtsman, but found it boring so swapped to become an electrical/mechanical fitter, though I did 9 months in the milling shop and 6 in the lathe shop. After returning from London, where I went with some mates to form a rock band seeking fame and fortune and failed miserably, I was first a multi skilled engineer, then a tool room supervisor before drifting towards maintenance, first in a Japanese car factory, then for an oil company. All those posts involved training apprentices in using engineering tools, both hand and machines. I passed certificates in MiG, TiG and MMA welding and was an occasional programmer of robots as well, proper jack of all trades and confident bodger in most. Built insides for black box flight recorders, built gas turbines and went out on north sea oil rigs mending them, helped build the first automated letter sorters for the post office and one of the first industrial microwave ovens. I have built a OO gauge sheet metal V2 and scratch built the chassis for it, nothing like your level of modelling I hasten to add.

[greenglade]

 I have built a OO gauge sheet metal V2 and scratch built the chassis for it, nothing like your level of modelling I hasten to add.

 

I wouldn't say that,  scratch building  a V2 in 00 is no mean feat,   Sounds like you had an interesting career.. now TIG welding is something I need to learn in due course, I've done other types but not Tig and not in stainless. I need to fabricate the ashpan at some pont in the future and it needs to be stainless... my son has a good Tig welder, from what I understand, it's just a case of getting the right 'wire' to weld stainless?

[tigerburnie]

Tig needs cleanliness more than anything, no grubby fingers marks on anything, I did more aluminium than stainless, but you need the right wire and flux. Here's the V2, built 30 years ago, doubt I will paint it now though, it does run, it was built using a kit, some white metal castings, I think it was a DJH kit?

[greenglade]

That looks a well-built model, very well built... the V2 is a lovely looking loco and very capable of hauling heavy trains. They did sterling service during WW2..

 

Pete.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Tig needs cleanliness more than anything, no grubby fingers marks on anything, I did more aluminium than stainless, but you need the right wire and flux. Here's the V2, built 30 years ago, doubt I will paint it now though, it does run, it was built using a kit, some white metal castings, I think it was a DJH kit?

Possibly a Proscale kit, withdrawn with the rest of the range following a critical magazine review, IIRC. I built a Proscale Coal Tank, also over thirty years ago, the body was okay but the chassis design was hopeless and replaced with a set of AGW machined brass frames.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson