Coreless motors - what RTR has them?

[newbryford]

Hi All,

 

I'm trying to compile a list of currently available RTR that is fitted with coreless motors.

 

A quick search doesn't reveal definitive answers, but I think I've found the following so far......

 

00 gauge

 

DJ Models:

Class 71

14xx/48xx

J94

 

Kernow:

1361

O2

Beattie Well tank

 

 

Bachmann:

Wickham trolley

Ivatt 2-6-2T with Next18 socket - maybe?

 

009 Baldwin

 

Oxford:

Dean Goods - later releases appear to have coreless - see this post

 

Dapol

GWR streamlined railcar - maybe?

 

 

N gauge.

Farish:

Most of the Farish releases over the past 4-5 years or so. The exceptions seem to be - DMUs and EMUs

 

Dapol:

Unknown.

 

 

If anyone can add more or confirm or correct me if I'm wrong, I would be most grateful. I will also continue searching.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited July 22, 2019 by newbryford
List update

[Steven B]

Farish:

Standard 5MT

Standard Class 4MT

WD 2-8-0

N Class

Duchess

64xx

LMS 4F

Ivatt 2MT

Jinty

Class 40 (latest model)

 

 

 

I believe the Dapol OO Gauge class 73, 121 and 122 have a coreless motor.

 

Steven B.

[NIK]

Hi All,

 

I'm trying to compile a list of currently available RTR that is fitted with coreless motors.

 

A quick search doesn't reveal definitive answers, but I think I've found the following so far......

 

00 gauge

 

DJ Models:

Class 71

14xx/48xx

J94

 

Kernow:

1361

O2

Beattie Well tank

 

 

Bachmann:

Wickham trolley

Ivatt 2-6-2T with Next18 socket - maybe?

 

009 Baldwin

 

Oxford:

Dean Goods - maybe?

 

Dapol

GWR streamlined railcar - maybe?

 

 

N gauge.

Farish:

Most of the Farish releases over the past 4-5 years or so. The exceptions seem to be - DMUs and EMUs

 

Dapol:

Unknown.

 

 

If anyone can add more or confirm or correct me if I'm wrong, I would be most grateful. I will also continue searching.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Hi Mick,

 

I've got the Dapol OO Class 73 and CL121 DMMU and they draw up to 600ma on 12V DC straight out of the box. So I think its unlikely they have coreless motors.

 

All the above figures were measured on a rolling road.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[tender]

Hi All,

 

I'm trying to compile a list of currently available RTR that is fitted with coreless motors.

 

A quick search doesn't reveal definitive answers, but I think I've found the following so far......

 

00 gauge

 

Kernow:

Beattie Well tank

 

Dapol

GWR streamlined railcar - maybe?

 

 

IIRC only the latest batches of BWT's supplied by DJM have coreless motors.

The originals supplied by Dapol have an ordinary motor.

 

Pretty sure the Dapol Railcar is also a ordinary 5 pole motor.

Edited December 13, 2017 by tender

[philsandy]

Bachmann:

Wickham trolley

Ivatt 2-6-2T with Next18 socket - maybe?

 

The Ivatt 2-6-2 tank does have a coreless motor.

[ADEN]

Sorry to hijack the thread I notice that a DJ models J94 has a core less motor , my friend has one of these and he uses a old gauge master controller but the loco has stopped running, would the core less motor be affected by that type of controller?

[crazynitwit]

Hi All,

 

I'm trying to compile a list of currently available RTR that is fitted with coreless motors.

 

A quick search doesn't reveal definitive answers, but I think I've found the following so far......

 

00 gauge

 

DJ Models:

Class 71

14xx/48xx

J94

 

Kernow:

1361

O2

Beattie Well tank

 

 

Bachmann:

Wickham trolley

Ivatt 2-6-2T with Next18 socket - maybe?

 

009 Baldwin

 

Oxford:

Dean Goods - maybe?

 

Dapol

GWR streamlined railcar - maybe?

 

 

N gauge.

Farish:

Most of the Farish releases over the past 4-5 years or so. The exceptions seem to be - DMUs and EMUs

 

Dapol:

Unknown.

 

 

If anyone can add more or confirm or correct me if I'm wrong, I would be most grateful. I will also continue searching.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

The golden vallies railways 'janus' locomotive has a coreless motor.

[Chamby]

Sorry to hijack the thread I notice that a DJ models J94 has a core less motor , my friend has one of these and he uses a old gauge master controller but the loco has stopped running, would the core less motor be affected by that type of controller?

It would if it was a feedback controller. These, I believe, have a red face panel rather than the usual cream.

 

Phil.

[newbryford]

The golden vallies railways 'janus' locomotive has a coreless motor.

'

Not according to this post. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105523-oxford-diecastgolden-valley-ye-janus-0-6-0de/?view=findpost&p=2788394

 

Cheers

Mick

[crazynitwit]

'

Not according to this post. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105523-oxford-diecastgolden-valley-ye-janus-0-6-0de/?view=findpost&p=2788394

 

Cheers

Mick

How strange I was sure brm did an article on ut and how it was coreless.

[2750Papyrus]

I'm sure many of us use feedback controllers and they are still actively marketed by Gaugemaster.   I personally find it a little odd that manufacturers use motors which are apparently incompatible.

 

It would therefore be a great help if magazines identified any issues such as the supposed vulnerability of coreless motors when reviewing models - and possibly to test them on a variety of different controllers.

[37114]

I'm sure many of us use feedback controllers and they are still actively marketed by Gaugemaster. I personally find it a little odd that manufacturers use motors which are apparently incompatible.

 

It would therefore be a great help if magazines identified any issues such as the supposed vulnerability of coreless motors when reviewing models - and possibly to test them on a variety of different controllers.

Agree, a friend has a 14xx and is most disappointed that it won't work.

[kandc_au]

I'm sure many of us use feedback controllers and they are still actively marketed by Gaugemaster.   I personally find it a little odd that manufacturers use motors which are apparently incompatible.

 

It would therefore be a great help if magazines identified any issues such as the supposed vulnerability of coreless motors when reviewing models - and possibly to test them on a variety of different controllers.

Sorry this is not on topic as such BUT, there is an article about these motors and Feedback controllers and the testing to date had shown that they did NOT do any damage to them.

Now you all want to know where and I cannot remember!

It may have been on the Gaugemaster site or even the DCC concepts site BUT in all honesty I do not remember.

When I bought my DJM 14xx  I also bought a Non Feedback Controller for fear of damaging the loco.

Hope this is of interest.

 

Khris

[NIK]

Hi,

 

For those worried about the effect of some controllers on locos with coreless motors:

 

For clarification its not feedback that can damage  coreless motors its the frequency of pulses supplied to the motor that's key.

 

As far as I know all feedback controllers send voltage pulses or varying width to the loco and in the gap measure the back EMF (which is related to the speed the motor is spinning at).

 

Coreless motors can have so low an inductance that large currents could flow through the brushes and damage the brushes.

 

This can be got round by sending the voltage pulses very closely spaced (say above 10khz) to the motor. There is sufficient inductance (resistance to change in current) in the motor that the current has not risen to a potentially damaging level before the pulse finishes (the voltage is removed).

 

Because the damage to motors would be expensive obviously folks want to proceed with caution.

 

I haven't yet thought of a way of checking what frequency a feedback controller employs using equipment the average railway modeller would have in their house.

 

If you notice your loco humming slightly at low speeds its probably being powered by a low frequency feedback controller - but that's not a definitive test.

 

Feedback controllers designed before about mid 1970's probably use low frequency but how would one tell when it was designed?.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Richard Lee]

May I thank the original poster for this thread?  Coreless motors apparently shouldn't be used with "electronic track cleaners" such as those from Relco or the Gaugemaster HF1 and HF2.  I installed a switch on the 16v AC power supply to the HF1 on my layout when I bought the Kernow O2.  If possible, I want to know whether or not a loco uses a coreless motor before I buy it.  Conversely, if I am unsure whether or not to buy a loco, the fact that it uses a normal motor is a point in its favour whereas a coreless motor is, for me, a significant point against it.

[Quarryscapes]

Oxford Dean Goods does NOT have Coreless motor, it is a conventional can and a very smooth one at that, especially with its twin flywheels. 

 

DSXT8483 by Alan Jones, on Flickr

[jimwal]

The Ivatt 2-6-2 tank does have a coreless motor.

 

The Ivatt 2-6-2T I fitted a decoder and sound in for someone else appeared to have the standard Bachmann motor in an otherwise retooled chassis. 

[BWsTrains]

On 16/12/2017 at 22:22, Quarryscapes said:

Oxford Dean Goods does NOT have Coreless motor, it is a conventional can and a very smooth one at that, especially with its twin flywheels. 

 

DSXT8483 by Alan Jones, on Flickr

 

It does now, see here

 

OR made a change in their later releases.

 

[melmerby]

There is a link back to the Janus earlier on and it definitely looks like it has a coreless motor.

 

A clue is a completely circular case without any louvres etc as it is used as a return for the magnetic flux

The magnets are inside the copper wire basket that forms the rotor.

 

 

 

[wiggy1]

On 13/12/2017 at 12:29, newbryford said:

Hi All,

 

I'm trying to compile a list of currently available RTR that is fitted with coreless motors.

 

A quick search doesn't reveal definitive answers, but I think I've found the following so far......

 

00 gauge

 

DJ Models:

Class 71

14xx/48xx

J94

 

Kernow:

1361

O2

Beattie Well tank

 

 

Bachmann:

Wickham trolley

Ivatt 2-6-2T with Next18 socket - maybe?

 

009 Baldwin

 

Oxford:

Dean Goods - later releases appear to have coreless - see this post

 

Dapol

GWR streamlined railcar - maybe?

 

 

N gauge.

Farish:

Most of the Farish releases over the past 4-5 years or so. The exceptions seem to be - DMUs and EMUs

 

Dapol:

Unknown.

 

 

If anyone can add more or confirm or correct me if I'm wrong, I would be most grateful. I will also continue searching.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Hi Mick,

 

As a general rule all new Farish N scale and Branchline 009 locos will be fitted with coreless motors. 

Some of the older Farish locos as they are being upgraded to NEXT18 decoders and sound capability will also be modified to include coreless motors, but possibly not all of them.

 

Branchline OO locos will predominantly be 3 pole cored motors  but this is very much dependant on size of the loco and the required pulling power.

 

Dapol do not use coreless  motors in ANY of their models.

 

Information supplied in good faith.

 

Wiggy.

Edited September 11, 2019 by wiggy1

[mikesndbs]

This is a most informative thread thanks.

Just discovered my Oxford Rail Dean goods has a coreless after servicing it.

A real pain as I had run it with an HF 1 track cleaner.

It seems ok.

 

The OP wanted to set up a database of locos with coreless.

 

Could I suggest a Google docs database that everyone could get sight of?

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, mikesndbs said:

This is a most informative thread thanks.

Just discovered my Oxford Rail Dean goods has a coreless after servicing it.

A real pain as I had run it with an HF 1 track cleaner.

It seems ok.

 

The OP wanted to set up a database of locos with coreless.

 

Could I suggest a Google docs database that everyone could get sight of?

The Dean Goods started with a 5 pole motor with two flywheels.

The later ones have a less powerful 3 pole coreless motor with one flywheel.

IMHO a retrograde step.

 

EDIT

BTW they are not brushless motors, some people get confused between coreless & brushless.

Edited November 19, 2020 by melmerby

[NS Peak]

The Rapido trains / Model Rail J70 steam tram has a coreless motor 

 

I can confirm they run like a dream

[Halvarras]

On 29/08/2019 at 18:34, wiggy1 said:

 

Dapol do not use coreless  motors in ANY of their models.

 

Information supplied in good faith.

 

Wiggy.

 

I'm surprised nobody has yet pointed out that the Kernow D600 Warship has a coreless motor - it clearly says so in the instruction sheet.

 

I quoted Wiggy here because the model's packaging is pure Dapol Western (inner specifically-shaped part excepted of course) - the bits container even has the recesses for the Western's spare end valances. If the D600s were produced in the same factory, Kernow must have specified a coreless motor, on the face of it a perplexing decision when the widely praised Bulleid diesel, which I believe was produced in a different factory, has a conventional motor. They must have had their reasons.....?

[The Johnster]

As a suggestion, one of the Good Captain's reasons may have been that the same number of motors as Bullied deisels were ordered and put into the Bullied diesels, and that when the time came to order the D600 motors, a further batch of Bullied type motors was not available or the price had gone up, so that a batch of coreless motors that were available and/or cheaper/better were ordered for the D600s. 

 

The point is made that the Bullieds and D600s were produced in different factories, so it could also be no more than the result of the coreless motors being what the D600 factory usually use.