OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Coppercap]

Back to Dapols' press release, showed different 'era' extras. Perhaps it's a case of "remove here, here, here & here, to get the period you want" sort of thing..... I still get caught in the minefield, and I've got the books right here!Ian.

If they are customer-add-on-parts, pity that wasn't the case with the 48xx.I didn't want bunker steps on mine...

[Dunsignalling]

There was some speculation (myself included) about the possibility of a large prairie model. Views were expressed that the likely candidates were Bachmann, and Hornby. Hornby had a 'front runner' because of the older Airfix prairie, and Bachmann, due to previous form with the 43xx mogul. Dapol have entered the market with their version, and naturally, made quite a surprise. The wording & nature of Dapols' press release shows that a positive & helpful response goes a long way to us, the buyers, getting what we actually want. Hornby might well announce their product in a couple of weeks, but we don't know. Naturally, if a producer takes time to engage the potential buyers, then the chances of a 'right first time' increases enormously. The flip side happens if there is a lack of communication, or a poorly executed model. Nobody wants that, so a large portion of mutual respect is required. Most posters on here have extensive background & research available, and it's mostly at the touch of a button. Mostly, it's freely given as well! Polite discussion from a couple of months back, has led us to being in a situation where a producer has entered the market, with definite intent, and another with some degree of speculation.

 

It makes me wonder that, if we continue on a path of détente, what else can we achieve?

 

Ian.

I think that Dapol have taken a pragmatic view that, if Bachmann were ever going to make a better 43xx, they've had around 20 years to come up with one and if Hornby were going to fully revamp their Large Prairie, they've had getting on for twice that.

 

For either or both to ditch their indifference after all this time and duplicate what Dapol have announced will require a hefty application of Sod's Law. 

 

John

Edited December 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

I think that Dapol have taken a pragmatic view that, if Bachmann were ever going to make a better 43xx, they've had around 20 years to come up with one and if Hornby were going to fully revamp their Large Prairie, they've had getting on for twice that.

 

For either or both to ditch their indifference after all this time and duplicate what Dapol have announced will require a hefty application of Sod's Law. 

 

John

 

But is there anything fundamentally wrong with the previous models apart from dated chassis and a slight lack of finesse compared to recent models?

 

 

Twenty years ago the Mainline/Bachmann 43XX and the Airfix 61XX (and 14XX) were still vastly better than most RTR models available. Yes they need a new model now, but they didn't then.

 

 

 

Jason

[coachmann]

I think that Dapol have taken a pragmatic view that, if Bachmann were ever going to make a better 43xx, they've had around 20 years to come up with one and if Hornby were going to fully revamp their Large Prairie, they've had getting on for twice that.

 

For either or both to ditch their indifference after all this time and duplicate what Dapol have announced will require a hefty application of Sod's Law. 

Suppose Hornby or Bachmann or whoever have been working on either of these locos for some time?  It is most likely they will announce their forthcoming goodies in the New Year and any duplication will be dealt with by the company(s) with the least amount of investment to loose. 

[Dunsignalling]

Suppose Hornby or Bachmann or whoever have been working on either of these locos for some time?  It is most likely they will announce their forthcoming goodies in the New Year and any duplication will be dealt with by the company(s) with the least amount of investment to loose. 

But it is just supposing.

 

I think we can pretty much discount any threat from Bachmann, they've got a hefty backlog of models we already know about and a need to start recouping some of the cash they've sunk into those rather than holding them back further in favour of a rush job on something they've ignored for so long. If there is duplication in the air, Bachmann have recently backed off if the rival product is thought to be significantly further developed. If Dapol's plans do stimulate any action from Bachmann, I think it's more likely to be the announcement of an all-new Manor.

 

Hornby are the unknown factor, IMHO, as they can and do spring surprise releases on us with only a few months notice. We will know, one way or the other, in just over three weeks.

 

John    

Edited December 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

But is there anything fundamentally wrong with the previous models apart from dated chassis and a slight lack of finesse compared to recent models?

 

 

Twenty years ago the Mainline/Bachmann 43XX and the Airfix 61XX (and 14XX) were still vastly better than most RTR models available. Yes they need a new model now, but they didn't then.

 

 

 

Jason

That was before Hornby woke up, produced their rebuilt Merchant Navy, and changed the rules of the game, though.......

 

Arguably, we have "needed" a decent GWR Mogul for all of the two decades or so since Bachmann evidently decided the old one was no longer good enough (and/or the tools were too knackered to continue in use) and stopped making it.

 

Apart from the Scot and loco-driven developments of the existing 4F and 2P, Hornby haven't replaced any of their ex-Airfix/Mainline/Dapol [$} "inherited" models with newly-tooled  versions. *

 

John

 

* EDIT: I forgot the Class 56,

 

$ EDIT 2: Lima never made a decent model of a steam loco or a detailed model of anything else so I didn't intend to include it in the discussion.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Silver Sidelines]

I love getting shot down. but perhaps part of the problem with the mogul is its relatively small boiler and hence the low weight of the model.  Mainline covered this problem by fitting traction tyres on the rear drivers (and on the Manor which uses essentially the same chassis).  I had three or four Mainline Manors of dubious running quality and when Bachmann was created one of the first things to become available was a replacement Manor chassis.  I thought - wonderful.  It ran beautifully smoothly .  But would it haul anything (up my gradients) - no.

 

Ray

Edited December 17, 2017 by Silver Sidelines

[Roy Langridge]

That was before Hornby woke up, produced their rebuilt Merchant Navy, and changed the rules of the game, though.......

 

Arguably, we have "needed" a decent GWR Mogul for all of the two decades or so since Bachmann evidently decided the old one was no longer good enough (and/or the tools were too knackered to continue in use) and stopped making it.

 

Apart from the Scot and loco-driven developments of the existing 4F and 2P, Hornby haven't replaced any of their "inherited" models with newly-tooled versions. *

 

John

 

* EDIT: I forgot the Class 56.

And the class 31 and HST.

 

Edit: and class 60?

 

Roy

Edited December 17, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Dunsignalling]

And the class 31 and HST.

 

Roy

I was confining myself to the ex-Airfix/Dapol items, but yes. sort of.

 

Hornby did do an all-new 31 but kept the ex-Lima one in the Railroad range. Did Hornby ever take over the tooling for the Airfix 31?

 

The HST is less clear cut, as Hornby already made one of their own before acquiring Lima - which one did they replace?

 

John

Edited December 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Roy Langridge]

I was confining myself to the ex-Airfix/Dapol items, but yes. sort of.

 

Hornby did do an all-new 31 but kept the ex-Lima one in the Railroad range. Did Hornby ever take over the tooling for the Airfix 31?

 

The HST is less clear cut, as Hornby already made one of their own before acquiring Lima - which one did they replace?

 

John

I am pretty sure Hornby did release the Airfix 31, but not 100% certain.

 

As for the HST, didn’t the Lima HST replace the Hornby version and then the new tooling replace the Lima model?

 

Roy

[Silver Sidelines]

I thought the perceived wisdom was that the 'mould' for the Airfix 31xxx 'got broke'.  But was perhaps just a naughty rumour?

 

Ray

[Rhys Underwood]

I am pretty sure Hornby did release the Airfix 31, but not 100% certain.

 

As for the HST, didn’t the Lima HST replace the Hornby version and then the new tooling replace the Lima model?

 

Roy

 

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the NEW Hornby HST replaced the old tooling and Lima HST replaced the old Hornby tooling in the Rail Road range, although Hornby has only released the latter once in Virgin livery and has never seen the light of day since.   

[57xx]

Decisions, decisions... "Great Western" or Shirtbutton livery for the Mogul. 

[Rhys Underwood]

I happy that both are finally getting an update, long time coming. The one thing I am slightly confused about it he lack of post 56 Large Prairie, I'm all for a bit of DIY and changing the crest but I'm not a fan of taking the T-Cut and a cotton to a £100 model. No? Hmm, must just be me then.... 

[88D]

Tin hat on just in case... Perhaps they didn't like superior Welsh coal?

You need a miner’s hat, not a tin one

[Legend]

I love getting shot down. but perhaps part of the problem with the mogul is its relatively small boiler and hence the low weight of the model.  Mainline covered this problem by fitting traction tyres on the rear drivers (and on the Manor which uses essentially the same chassis).  I had three or four Mainline Manors of dubious running quality and when Bachmann was created one of the first things to become available was a replacement Manor chassis.  I thought - wonderful.  It ran beautifully smoothly .  But would it haul anything (up my gradients) - no.

 

Ray

Interesting Ray. Not having owned either a Mainline 43XX or Manor I didn’t realise they had traction tyres. Small boiler comment noted, but why would making an acceptable 43XX be any more difficult that say the BR std Class 2MT 2-6-0 which performs perfectly adequately for me without traction tyres?

 

As John had noted after inactivity for 20 years it would be a damned shame if Hornby of Bachmann duplicated either the Mogul or Prairie. I really don’t think we have anything to worry about with Bachmann . I can’t see that they’d have been working on it in the background given that they’ve announced re chassied V2 , J39 etc . They would surely have announced they were working on the Mogul . I suppose there’s a chance it could be a commission like the S Stock that we didn’t know about in advance, but why would a 43XX be a special commission? I think the bigger danger is a new Hornby Prairie. They could well have been working on one for release in 2018, considering that Hornby usually announce models they have already done most of the development work on. I really hope not , because it would be bad news for both companies if they split the market. Something Hornby in its current state could well do without.

[coachmann]

This thread has been a fun read. I can just see it........Someone announces their 43XX or Large Prairie will be on dealers shelves by March 2018 and RMwebbers are saying "Oh that's not fare to Dapol....We are waiting till the Dapol ones come out in 2019". 

 

I don't think so.  

Edited December 17, 2017 by coachmann

[TheSignalEngineer]

I just hopr they can get the numbers in the right place unlike my Blood & Custard Railcar and Speed Whisker 121. Still, as they won't be doing the numbers or liveries that I want it wouldn't really be a problem for me but great fodder for the froth generators.

[farren]

That defiantly wouldn't be Bachmann then.

[The Johnster]

Interesting Ray. Not having owned either a Mainline 43XX or Manor I didn’t realise they had traction tyres. Small boiler comment noted, but why would making an acceptable 43XX be any more difficult that say the BR std Class 2MT 2-6-0 which performs perfectly adequately for me without traction tyres?

 

As John had noted after inactivity for 20 years it would be a damned shame if Hornby of Bachmann duplicated either the Mogul or Prairie. I really don’t think we have anything to worry about with Bachmann . I can’t see that they’d have been working on it in the background given that they’ve announced re chassied V2 , J39 etc . They would surely have announced they were working on the Mogul . I suppose there’s a chance it could be a commission like the S Stock that we didn’t know about in advance, but why would a 43XX be a special commission? I think the bigger danger is a new Hornby Prairie. They could well have been working on one for release in 2018, considering that Hornby usually announce models they have already done most of the development work on. I really hope not , because it would be bad news for both companies if they split the market. Something Hornby in its current state could well do without.

 

I can't see any Hornby large prairie being a complete new tooling discarding all of the issues of the old Airfix model, and possibly a Railroad item like the 14xx is what, if anything, they will turn out.  The situation will then be similar to the 14xx one where you pays yer money and takes yer choice of a cheap basic loco or a more expensive but better detailed and running one.  This is not unacceptable. 

 

What would be damaging to all parties would be a price war between similarly specced models, good though it might be for us purchasers.  

[Clearwater]

I can't see any Hornby large prairie being a complete new tooling discarding all of the issues of the old Airfix model, and possibly a Railroad item like the 14xx is what, if anything, they will turn out.  The situation will then be similar to the 14xx one where you pays yer money and takes yer choice of a cheap basic loco or a more expensive but better detailed and running one.  This is not unacceptable. 

 

What would be damaging to all parties would be a price war between similarly specced models, good though it might be for us purchasers.

 

Given they've just retooled their Duchess, I don't think you can assume that they won't retool even older models.

[Legend]

This thread has been a fun read. I can just see it........Someone announces their 43XX or Large Prairie will be on dealers shelves by March 2018 and RMwebbers are saying "Oh that's not fare to Dapol....We are waiting till the Dapol ones come out in 2019". 

 

I don't think so.  

No that’s unlikely as you say. I’m thinking here Hornby King and Hattons/DJM King where the early bird most definitely captured the worm . But how likely is it that an unannounced model is going to be on dealers shelves in March 2018?

[metropolitan cammell]

I am pretty sure Hornby did release the Airfix 31, but not 100% certain.

 

As for the HST, didn’t the Lima HST replace the Hornby version and then the new tooling replace the Lima model?

 

Roy

 

Fairly sure the Airfix 31 was not released by Dapol or Hornby and possibly not by Mainline either.

[Steamport Southport]

Fairly sure the Airfix 31 was not released by Dapol or Hornby and possibly not by Mainline either.

 

Definitely not by Mainline. No idea whether Dapol released it.

 

 

 

Jason

[Synch]

After seeing this announcement I have a general inquiry relating to the Great Western and great central joint lines;

 

I'm not sure I'd get one of moguls as they were mostly displaced by Halls on inter-regional workings to the GCR by the 30s (given the liveries being offered), now I know the 51xx's could be seen around the joint lines but I want some more solid information on this as the only photos I've seen of them relating to the GCR have been with Some of the inter regional workings over GWR territory!  Can anyone provide info on this?  Thanks.