OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[The Johnster]

A Taff A and 04, in rebuilt condition of course, and a Rhymney R; yes please Santa!  But on the other hand it would be a disaster for my wallet as, as well as having to stump up for 3 new locos, I'd have to build a new railway to be suitable for them (Tondu had none of these, and I'd have to move to East Dock territory).

 

Be careful what you wish for, Johnster!

[tomparryharry]

A Taff A and 04, in rebuilt condition of course, and a Rhymney R; yes please Santa!  But on the other hand it would be a disaster for my wallet as, as well as having to stump up for 3 new locos, I'd have to build a new railway to be suitable for them (Tondu had none of these, and I'd have to move to East Dock territory).

 

Be careful what you wish for, Johnster!

 

And, around the back of East Moors, North East Junction slumbers, awaiting the call....... Cardiff Railway 153, anybody?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... TVR A class. Rhymney 'R' class, TVR O4...We just need someone to set the pace now...

 

 This is one area where surprisingly the RTR catering for the GWR is lagging behind what has begun to become available for elsewhere among the Big Four. Correct me if wrong, but there hasn't ever been a loco model from any of the other pre-group companies that became part of the GWR (Big Four version)?

 

By comparison I am mightily and pleasantly surprised to have the LNER's GNR origin locomotive legacy and development, now a little salted with some of the more numerous GCR and GER designs (and live in hope that the NER's B16 might join the party) and the LMS now has some RTR locos reflecting L&Y and LNWR contributions to the LMS pool rather than an exclusively Derby inheritance. As for the SR, the  representation of its forebears is now most splendidly on show, and how very interesting it is.

[frobisher]

This is slightly off-topic, but:

 

Instead of people trying to describe changes textually in these forums, why is it not possible for the community to create, or at least contribute to, the CAD models for projects directly? I imagine this could be done in a similar way that open source software is developed (although that's maybe not the best model because it can get divisive and thorny).

That way lies madness... You'd need good version control software at the back end of it, plus you'd really not want any old Tom, Dick or Harry with a passing familiarity editing the meshes. Having employed 3D artists (not CAD operators but I suspect they are the same) I know how they bitch when someone else has touched their models - it is very easy to knock a model out of whack by "just" adjusting one or two vertices. I suspect the venn diagram of "people who know their train stuff" and "people who can competently operate CAD/CAM software" has quite a narrow intersection. You'll also get the Wikipedia factor coming in, whereby certain very opinionated individuals will keep making sure their edit has precedence, right or wrong.

 

Also, making the CAD publicly available means you are handing your crown jewels to anyone with access to a 3D printer, so you will lose customers or gain competitors...

Edited December 20, 2017 by frobisher

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

This photo purports to show 5384 and does indeed have the new-style motion plate.http://www.davidheys...turner-5384.jpgAnd here is one of 5380 showing the earlier style.http://www.warwicksh...wr/gwrt1048.htm5381 is the most distant loco in this lineup (purportedly) and also has the earlier plates. getting closer.https://www.ebay.co....a0AAOSwjyhZ81WdThat would certainly suggest 5384 was the first (or at least very nearly) the first to have the new motion planet. However as Miss P has already pointed out about, these photos all rely on notes for loco identification as I cannot confidently make out the numbers on the locos from those photos myself.

True about the photos. Those in Maidment’s book are both BR era with the smokebox plates clearly visible.

[Harlequin]

That way lies madness... You'd need good version control software at the back end of it, plus you'd really not want any old Tom, Dick or Harry with a passing familiarity editing the meshes. Having employed 3D artists (not CAD operators but I suspect they are the same) I know how they bitch when someone else has touched their models - it is very easy to knock a model out of whack by "just" adjusting one or two vertices. I suspect the venn diagram of "people who know their train stuff" and "people who can competently operate CAD/CAM software" has quite a narrow intersection. You'll also get the Wikipedia factor coming in, whereby certain very opinionated individuals will keep making sure their edit has precedence, right or wrong.

 

Also, making the CAD publicly available means you are handing your crown jewels to anyone with access to a 3D printer, so you will lose customers or gain competitors...

Fear not, similar problems exist in the open source software world and they have been largely addressed:

• The set of people changing the model would be self-selecting as those people who are interested and have the skills to manipulate the 3D Model. They would overwhelmingly tend to be people trying to do good, positive things.
• Changes submitted would be held separately and only pulled into the the main model after they have been peer-reviewed and assessed by the community.
• The CAD people making the changes to the 3D model don't also need to be experts on the prototype. They can work closely with the non-CAD prototype experts in the community. So long as the prototype experts can see the changes being made very quickly (i.e. have a 3D Viewer to study the model as soon as it has been changed) they can give immediate feedback and the design process could proceed much quicker than using a public forum to communicate with a small commercial design team who release static images of their models once every few months.

Commercial entities would make money from the "open source" community-developed CAD model by "packaging" it. I.e. by manufacturing, preparing, advertising and distributing their version of it. Sure, anyone could use the open-source model as the basis for a product but only the big commercial entities would be able to do that to a highly-professional, injection-moulded RTR standard and that's where their market share would come from. That still leaves room for those who want to print their own rough versions at home for whatever reasons and the middle-ground of fine scale modellers who might use the model as the basis for much more detailed and specific work, perhaps buying high-res prints from a specialist small-run manufacturer.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Harlequin

[The Johnster]

 This is one area where surprisingly the RTR catering for the GWR is lagging behind what has begun to become available for elsewhere among the Big Four. Correct me if wrong, but there hasn't ever been a loco model from any of the other pre-group companies that became part of the GWR (Big Four version)?

 

By comparison I am mightily and pleasantly surprised to have the LNER's GNR origin locomotive legacy and development, now a little salted with some of the more numerous GCR and GER designs (and live in hope that the NER's B16 might join the party) and the LMS now has some RTR locos reflecting L&Y and LNWR contributions to the LMS pool rather than an exclusively Derby inheritance. As for the SR, the  representation of its forebears is now most splendidly on show, and how very interesting it is.

 

This is true (except for Hornby Dublo's N1 masquerading as a Rhymney R in GWR livery)  but there is a reason for it; the GW inherited a bunch of relatively small fry local railways at the grouping rather than being formed of anything up to half a dozen major companies that covered signifcant areas, as the others were.  As a result, old company traditions other than their own GW ones did not survive over large areas to influence enthusiasts, so that a Taff A, for example, is less well known than a Brighton Terrier or a GC Butler Henderson.  London is the biggest centre of population in the UK, and in many ways the leader and arbiter of a market's taste and opinion (even Hornby Dublo never made a L & Y prototype suitable for the Liverpool area, for instance) and had only ever seen GW stock as opposed to the constituent stock from other railways,

 

The early RTR trade, by which I mean up to the late 70s, concentrated on stock that was familiar from media coverage; A4s, Duchesses, Princess Elizabeth, and so on, and made up the shortfall with locos into which they could easily hide the mechanisms rather than those which would appeal to followers of a company or a locality in the way that modern RTR tries to and arguably succeeds reasonably well.

 

Another factor is that the GW's engine's 'all look the same'; they don't, but the railway was already 20 years in to a modernisation programme and standardisation project by 1923, and was able to extend the principles and appearance of this to it's newly acquired stock in a way that the other 3 weren't, and although the Midland certainly influenced the LMS, the GNR the LNER, and the SECR the Southern, if only because of the continuity of CMEs, this was not really comparable to the all embracing sweep of Churchward principles across the GW and it's constituents.

[tomparryharry]

 This is one area where surprisingly the RTR catering for the GWR is lagging behind what has begun to become available for elsewhere among the Big Four. Correct me if wrong, but there hasn't ever been a loco model from any of the other pre-group companies that became part of the GWR (Big Four version)?

 

By comparison I am mightily and pleasantly surprised to have the LNER's GNR origin locomotive legacy and development, now a little salted with some of the more numerous GCR and GER designs (and live in hope that the NER's B16 might join the party) and the LMS now has some RTR locos reflecting L&Y and LNWR contributions to the LMS pool rather than an exclusively Derby inheritance. As for the SR, the  representation of its forebears is now most splendidly on show, and how very interesting it is.

 

You are quite correct. However, it does bring it's own problems.  There are only about 6 locomotives in total that  represent anything pre-grouping 'Western, and the major players already have the principal pre-grouping models, and none of the amalgamated companies. The variation is quite extensive, but it's very, very niche indeed. No M&SWJR, Barry, Rhymney, B&M (who's that?) A&NDJR (again, who's that?) and the Taff Vale Railway. Not much of a Railway really. When the mighty Great Western were paying dividends of 2%, the Taff were paying 10 1/4% in the same year. But, I digress.

 

The hardest part for any producer, would be to accurately reproduce the original subject, with any degree of fidelity. The subject matter is such that getting even rivets out of line would bring down howls of "shame" upon the hapless designer, as the parent subject is so well known. A tough game indeed.

 

Ian

[tomparryharry]

This is true (except for Hornby Dublo's N1 masquerading as a Rhymney R in GWR livery)  but there is a reason for it; the GW inherited a bunch of relatively small fry local railways at the grouping rather than being formed of anything up to half a dozen major companies that covered signifcant areas, as the others were.  As a result, old company traditions other than their own GW ones did not survive over large areas to influence enthusiasts, so that a Taff A, for example, is less well known than a Brighton Terrier or a GC Butler Henderson.  London is the biggest centre of population in the UK, and in many ways the leader and arbiter of a market's taste and opinion (even Hornby Dublo never made a L & Y prototype suitable for the Liverpool area, for instance) and had only ever seen GW stock as opposed to the constituent stock from other railways,

 

The early RTR trade, by which I mean up to the late 70s, concentrated on stock that was familiar from media coverage; A4s, Duchesses, Princess Elizabeth, and so on, and made up the shortfall with locos into which they could easily hide the mechanisms rather than those which would appeal to followers of a company or a locality in the way that modern RTR tries to and arguably succeeds reasonably well.

 

Another factor is that the GW's engine's 'all look the same'; they don't, but the railway was already 20 years in to a modernisation programme and standardisation project by 1923, and was able to extend the principles and appearance of this to it's newly acquired stock in a way that the other 3 weren't, and although the Midland certainly influenced the LMS, the GNR the LNER, and the SECR the Southern, if only because of the continuity of CMEs, this was not really comparable to the all embracing sweep of Churchward principles across the GW and it's constituents.

 

Addressing the problem is simple. Every morning, the design department sit on the top of a Great Western safety valve, pointing towards Caerphilly. The mantra is issued thus:-" Bless me oh lord, that I may worship the Port Talbot Railway 0-8-2 tanks, , and deliver me from the twin evils of the LNWR, and Midland". Defaulters of the chosen path will need to pronounce the word Penrhiwceiber. Non-believers will need to attend a beginners course in Caroline Street, Cardiff.

 

Ian.

[frobisher]

Fear not, similar problems exist in the open source software world and they have been largely addressed:

• The set of people changing the model would be self-selecting as those people who are interested and have the skills to manipulate the 3D Model. They would overwhelmingly tend to be people trying to do good, positive things.
• Changes submitted would be held separately and only pulled into the the main model after they have been peer-reviewed and assessed by the community.
• The CAD people making the changes to the 3D model don't also need to be experts on the prototype. They can work closely with the non-CAD prototype experts in the community. So long as the prototype experts can see the changes being made very quickly (i.e. have a 3D Viewer to study the model as soon as it has been changed) they can give immediate feedback and the design process could proceed much quicker than using a public forum to communicate with a small commercial design team who release static images of their models once every few months.

Commercial entities would make money from the "open source" community-developed CAD model by "packaging" it. I.e. by manufacturing, preparing, advertising and distributing their version of it. Sure, anyone could use the open-source model as the basis for a product but only the big commercial entities would be able to do that to a highly-professional, injection-moulded RTR standard and that's where their market share would come from. That still leaves room for those who want to print their own rough versions at home for whatever reasons and the middle-ground of fine scale modellers who might use the model as the basis for much more detailed and specific work, perhaps buying high-res prints from a specialist small-run manufacturer.

 

That is not what you were proposing up the thread... I can't see any manufacturer wanting to touch this with a bargepole for good commercial reasons.

 

 

• Changes submitted would be held separately and only pulled into the the main model after they have been peer-reviewed and assessed by the community.

 

Also, this is not exactly possible with most binary file formats...

Edited December 21, 2017 by frobisher

[tomparryharry]

A Taff A and 04, in rebuilt condition of course, and a Rhymney R; yes please Santa!  But on the other hand it would be a disaster for my wallet as, as well as having to stump up for 3 new locos, I'd have to build a new railway to be suitable for them (Tondu had none of these, and I'd have to move to East Dock territory).

 

Be careful what you wish for, Johnster!

 

Go on Johnster, you know you want to.....

Edited December 21, 2017 by tomparryharry

[The Stationmaster]

Addressing the problem is simple. Every morning, the design department sit on the top of a Great Western safety valve, pointing towards Caerphilly. The mantra is issued thus:-" Bless me oh lord, that I may worship the Port Talbot Railway 0-8-2 tanks, , and deliver me from the twin evils of the LNWR, and Midland". Defaulters of the chosen path will need to pronounce the word Penrhiwceiber. Non-believers will need to attend a beginners course in Caroline Street, Cardiff.

 

Ian.

 

I wonder why you picked on Caroline Street?   

[tomparryharry]

I wonder why you picked on Caroline Street?   

 

 Well.... Easy really. It's easier for those 'linguistically challenged' to say Caroline Street, than it is to properly pronounce Ynysybwl. Penrhriwceiber is close to Ynysyboeth, but you'd be damned clever to tell them apart. Then, over the tump, there's Llanwonno. Further west you go, you go past Ystradgynlais. There's proper twang down there, there is!

 

Dai the Shunt.

[The Johnster]

Go on Johnster, you know you want to.....

 

That's just what I need, tom, a bit of encouragement; get thee behind me. Satan.  And push.

[Ian Hargrave]

Well.... Easy really. It's easier for those 'linguistically challenged' to say Caroline Street, than it is to properly pronounce Ynysybwl. Penrhriwceiber is close to Ynysyboeth, but you'd be damned clever to tell them apart. Then, over the tump, there's Llanwonno. Further west you go, you go past Ystradgynlais. There's proper twang down there, there is!

 

Dai the Shunt.

Llanwonno.....In the churchyard is (or was)the grave of the legendary athlete Guto ...pronounced "gitto". The destination of whinberry gathering excursions on a summer's day from the Aman Valley communities.You could view the Bristol Channel and the far off Somerset hills from there.The "bwl" had a fearsome local rugby team ( pronounced "bull" btw )

[Ian Hargrave]

I wonder why you picked on Caroline Street?

 

Caroline Street ....at one time,at any rate.....used to boast several good cheap eating places...good for pre or post match meals...if visiting Arms Park.Well that of course was then.....

[Andy W]

What has the poor Cambrian done to justify being the only sizeable railway grouped into the GWR to be left out of this discussion?

Is it the terrible offence of actually having its loco department headquarters in England? Or that even in BR days Cambrian 0-6-0s could be found working trainloads of ballast from the quarries near Oswestry to the industrial West Midlands, whereas most South Wales locos never left their home ground apart from the odd trip to Swindon Works?

Or just having incredibly beautiful scenery that cries out to be modelled?

[Quarryscapes]

What has the poor Cambrian done to justify being the only sizeable railway grouped into the GWR to be left out of this discussion?

Is it the terrible offence of actually having its loco department headquarters in England? Or that even in BR days Cambrian 0-6-0s could be found working trainloads of ballast from the quarries near Oswestry to the industrial West Midlands, whereas most South Wales locos never left their home ground apart from the odd trip to Swindon Works?

Or just having incredibly beautiful scenery that cries out to be modelled?

 

One day, when I can afford it lottery win needed) I will commission a Large Belpaire Goods from some RTR manufacturer.

[The Johnster]

Llanwonno.....In the churchyard is (or was)the grave of the legendary athlete Guto ...pronounced "gitto". The destination of whinberry gathering excursions on a summer's day from the Aman Valley communities.You could view the Bristol Channel and the far off Somerset hills from there.The "bwl" had a fearsome local rugby team ( pronounced "bull" btw )

 

Guto Nith Bran, in whose honour the 'Nos Galan' road race is run every New Year's Eve in the streets of Mountain Ash, his home town, is indeed buried in the churchyard at St Gwynno's in Llanwonno.  He was, according to the legend able to run from 'The Mount' to the spring near Llanwonno 3 miles and back to get fresh water for the tea before his mother had boiled the kettle (but we don't know how big the kettle or how long it took to boil).  For an athlete to be remembered 2 and a half centuries later after the incredible social upheaval of the industrial revolution in this area is testament to his ability, character, and personality. The church also has an allegedly 9th century font (not a sort of typeface, the stone bowl thing they keep the holy water in to baptise babies with), and what was always a lovely old pub is now a very good restaurant.  The nearby coal tip, much rutted by offroad bikers and with it's peak cut down in the interests of post Aberfan stability, is still an excellent viewpoint with vistas across the valleys, up to the Beacons and Black Mountain, and out over the Bristol Channel to Somerset, Exmoor, and North Devon.

 

There is a particular fascination in these upland villages scattered around the hills of Glamorgan and western Gwent; a memory of the world that existed there before the industrialisation which destroyed the sylvan beauty of the valleys.  My great aunt Nell, a lifelong Tonypandy resident whose Irish parents were famine refugees and who died in 1963 at the age of 98, when I was 11, remembered when 'a squirrel could go from Pontypridd to Treherbert without touching the ground'; the trees were all felled for pit props many years ago now, and are replaced with soulless regimented sitka fir plantations courtesy of the Forestry Commission; the hamlet of Llanwonno sits in the middle of one.

 

I wan't aware of the whinberries, but it was great in September or early October for blackberries.

[Budgie]

Llanwonno.....In the churchyard is (or was)the grave of the legendary athlete Guto ...pronounced "gitto". The destination of whinberry gathering excursions on a summer's day from the Aman Valley communities.

My mother and her parents used to pick whinberries "up the line", i.e. alongside the old abandoned Aberdare to Cwmaman railway line. They made the most delicious pie, the like of which I haven't tasted since the 1960s.

[tomparryharry]

One day, when I can afford it lottery win needed) I will commission a Large Belpaire Goods from some RTR manufacturer.

 

I seem to remember that you were well on your way yourself. Perhaps it should be 'me asking 'you'.

[giz]

Caroline Street ....at one time,at any rate.....used to boast several good cheap eating places...good for pre or post match meals...if visiting Arms Park.Well that of course was then.....

Also quite handy if you fancied something to eat at 3am I seem to remember.

[tomparryharry]

What has the poor Cambrian done to justify being the only sizeable railway grouped into the GWR to be left out of this discussion?

Is it the terrible offence of actually having its loco department headquarters in England? Or that even in BR days Cambrian 0-6-0s could be found working trainloads of ballast from the quarries near Oswestry to the industrial West Midlands, whereas most South Wales locos never left their home ground apart from the odd trip to Swindon Works?

Or just having incredibly beautiful scenery that cries out to be modelled?

 Cambrian? Never to be left out. It's a large element of an even  larger segment of Welsh railways, of both rolling stock, locomotive & working practices.

 

As we all know, the Cambrian ran some pretty extensive services, with some impressive coaching stock to boot.

 

The pre-grouping scene was a vast scenario of diversity, and the present day modelling is a very niche market indeed. However, all is not lost. I strongly believe that polite, informal discussion on the forum about this sort of thing will open doors to some of the niche element, and take it to the mainstream market. 

 

After all, if reputable model producers can release a 'single' coach (which, let's be honest, is a niche-niche market), then why not a Midland & South Western 4-4-0? Or, a 26xx Aberdare?

 

Cheers,

 

Ian

[tomparryharry]

Caroline Street ....at one time,at any rate.....used to boast several good cheap eating places...good for pre or post match meals...if visiting Arms Park.Well that of course was then.....

 

Clarks pie, chips,  yes, I remember....

[The Johnster]

Caroline Street, where a drunk Charlotte Church first met a drunk Gavin Henson on the night after a Wales-England rugby international which we'd won with his help, and, in her own words in an interview later, thought to herself 'I'm f*@^ing 'avin some of that', the ultimate South Wales love story, is still 'chip alley' despite a few incursions by the kebab brigade, and the destination of choice for many a Cardiff sophisticate's end of evening snack while the taxi queue dwindles a little.  I am sure those who have not sampled it's delights for some time would still feel perfectly at home there...