OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, sjrixon said:

Mine doesn't like keeping the pony truck on the track. And that's dispite lots of alteration to fix it. Actual chassis is fine and converted to dcc. 

 

I keep hovering over the pre-order button of a Great Western lettered version.... 

 

I can't see your problem, Scott. Sure, you're having problems with your model, and I do sympathise. 

 

But! I'd suggest it's somewhat unfair to judge the unreleased Dapol model, when your problem stems from a quite older Bachmann model....

 

Example:-  I don't think I'll buy the latest Fiat 500, because I'm still having trouble with my 1981 Mini Metro.........

 

 

[The Johnster]

Can’t see how he’s judging the Dapol mogul, Ian, unless I’ve missed something (which wouldn’t be unusual).  He’s trying to resist the temptation to pre-order it, finger hovering over the pre-order button, and merely commenting about the reluctance of the pony on his Mainline to stay on the track, which could be a back-2-back issue, stiffness in the pivot, a deformed frame, or a number of such issues. 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, sjrixon said:

Mine doesn't like keeping the pony truck on the track. And that's dispite lots of alteration to fix it. Actual chassis is fine and converted to dcc. 

 

 

You're lucky it didn't get mazak rot.

Mine succombed even though it was unused and stored from new.

Of three Mainline models I bought at around the same time and put into storage, only a Manor survives.

A 57XX chassis disintegrated into a pile of crystals and the 43XX warped to the point of not running.

I will buy a 43XX if it turns out to be worthwhile but I won't pre-order.

I don't trust Dapol, they seem to be able to to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The 41/51/61XX tank will likely come from Hornby.

[tomparryharry]

20 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You're lucky it didn't get mazak rot.

Mine succombed even though it was unused and stored from new.

Of three Mainline models I bought at around the same time and put into storage, only a Manor survives.

A 57XX chassis disintegrated into a pile of crystals and the 43XX warped to the point of not running.

I will buy a 43XX if it turns out to be worthwhile but I won't pre-order.

I don't trust Dapol, they seem to be able to to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The 41/51/61XX tank will likely come from Hornby.

 

But's the same of everybody, isn't it? Dapol aren't fools,. They know that it has to be good, to get a return on their activities. Writing them off is, to be honest, is a premature affair. 

 

If it's good, then all's well. Caveat Emptor!

 

I'm off to castigate a bus  driver, because his bus is the wrong colour, and it's going the other way.....

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

[Siberian Snooper]

4 hours ago, sjrixon said:

Mine doesn't like keeping the pony truck on the track. And that's dispite lots of alteration to fix it. Actual chassis is fine and converted to dcc. 

 

I keep hovering over the pre-order button of a Great Western lettered version.... 

 

 

We had several 43s within the club where the pony trucks were derailing, in the end we changed the wheels for Gibson's and since then the derailments have virtually disappeared.

 

 

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

But's the same of everybody, isn't it? Dapol aren't fools,. They know that it has to be good, to get a return on their activities. Writing them off is, to be honest, is a premature affair. 

 

If it's good, then all's well. Caveat Emptor!

 

I'm off to castigate a bus  driver, because his bus is the wrong colour, and it's going the other way.....

 

Happy modelling,

 

Ian.

So why did the DRC have issues?

 

I'm not writing them off just waiting to see the end product.

They have the ability do it right, but just might not.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

You're lucky it didn't get mazak rot.

Mine succombed even though it was unused and stored from new.

Of three Mainline models I bought at around the same time and put into storage, only a Manor survives.

A 57XX chassis disintegrated into a pile of crystals and the 43XX warped to the point of not running.

I will buy a 43XX if it turns out to be worthwhile but I won't pre-order.

I don't trust Dapol, they seem to be able to to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The 41/51/61XX tank will likely come from Hornby.

Mazak rot is a function of raw material quality and time, not usage, and is undetectable in new Mazak, so one can hardly blame Mainline for that.  Hornby Dublo, reckoned by some of my generation to be paragons of British (dammit Carruthers) engineering excellence, were notorious for it. 
 

Not sure I trust Dap either, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until they have proven that their model is unreliable or a poor runner.  It is a moot point whether Dap’s or Red Box will get a 5101/61xx to the shops first, and it’ll be great spectator sport no doubt!  Red Box are a pretty safe pair of hands these days. 
 

I’ve also lost Mainline locos that were running perfectly when I stored them, one to mazak rot and two to wear between the axle and it’s channel in the chassis blocks; the axle had worn through to the top of frame part in both cases.  Mileages were not especially high but the locos had a history of rough driving at exhibitions on a club layout by heavy handed members.  I’ve also lost them to quartering issues. 

 

[Harlequin]

17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

So why did the DRC have issues?

Did it have more issues than any other model by any other manufacturer?

There are issues with any model and owners who have problems are always very vocal. Nothing wrong with that but it can obscure the true state of a model's quality.

 

For the record, my two railcars (1st and 2nd iteration) are two of my favourites. Great slow running, great detail, fancy lighting as standard and no troubles at all (aside from the sound installation, which is a third party issue).

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Harlequin

[Ian Hargrave]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

You're lucky it didn't get mazak rot.

Mine succombed even though it was unused and stored from new.

Of three Mainline models I bought at around the same time and put into storage, only a Manor survives.

A 57XX chassis disintegrated into a pile of crystals and the 43XX warped to the point of not running.

I will buy a 43XX if it turns out to be worthwhile but I won't pre-order.

I don't trust Dapol, they seem to be able to to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

The 41/51/61XX tank will likely come from Hornby.

I think that’s unfair.In the past,Dapol have admittedly struggled but the B4 and 21/29 models....both recent offerings......prove that now they are up there with the best.Why would Rails and the NRM be commissioning them to model the Wainwright D if they felt ,as you seem to feel,negatively ? Indeed,having seen for myself last October the first samples flown in from China,I have every reason to feel confident.Why,it had the likes of a Tony Wright and others far worthier than I gasping in amazement .
 

 

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

I think that’s unfair.In the past,Dapol have admittedly struggled but the B4 and 21/29 models....both recent offerings......prove that now they are up there with the best.Why would Rails and the NRM be commissioning them to model the Wainwright D if they felt ,as you seem to feel,negatively ? Indeed,having seen for myself last October the first samples flown in from China,I have every reason to feel confident.Why,it had the likes of a Tony Wright and others far worthier than I gasping in amazement .
 

 

The NRM got Oxford to do the Dean Goods and just look at trials and tribulations with that!

We eventually ended up with a decent model and Oxford then stuffed it by binning the 5 pole motor for a weak coreless one.
 

[Ian Hargrave]

38 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The NRM got Oxford to do the Dean Goods and just look at trials and tribulations with that!

We eventually ended up with a decent model and Oxford then stuffed it by binning the 5 pole motor for a weak coreless one.
 

Yes but this is Dapol we’re talking about .Oxford are novices in producing rtr 4mm model locomotives,besides which,Rails are underpinning the D in any case.

  If you still have the vapours with regard to Dapol,then I suggest you sample their tiny B4 which should put your fears at rest.

     
        It is a very long time since Dapol produced a 4mm steam image model before the B4.Okay,way

 back when they had issues .But must a brand be for ever tarnished and dogged with a dodgy reputation and not be given credit for improvement and raising their game ? 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

Call me paranoid but I have bought a steady stream of locos over the years from Hornby & Bachmann, I have never as far as I can remember had a really poor runner.

The worst in recent times was the NRM C1 from Bachmann which has the worst adhesion of any of my recent locos but still runs well with a lightish load.

 

I bought a Dapol DRC, the first was dreadful, ran like it was a sick kangaroo, then failed completely. Second one works OK but is still not as good a runner as e.g. a Bachmann Cl 47.

Bought a Hattons/DJM 48XX I did get it running reasonably after a lot of fettling.

Bought 2 Oxford Dean Goods, total motor failure in one, found it wasn't fitted with the 5 pole motor with two flywheels as originally announced but a cheap 3 pole coreless with one flywheel.

Second runs OK so far but hasn't had a lot of use.

 

So away from Hornby & Bachmann the others haven't stacked up so well.

 

Hence waiting until these 43XX & 61XX arrive and have been evaluated before purchase.

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by melmerby

[tomparryharry]

24 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Call me paranoid but I have bought a steady stream of locos over the years from Hornby & Bachmann, I have never as far as I can remember had a really poor runner.

The worst in recent times was the NRM C1 from Bachmann which has the worst adhesion of any of my recent locos but still runs well with a lightish load.

 

I bought a Dapol DRC, the first was dreadful, ran like it was a sick kangaroo, then failed completely. Second one works OK but is still not as good a runner as e.g. a Bachmann Cl 47.

Bought a Hattons/DJM 48XX I did get it running reasonably after a lot of fettling.

Bought 2 Oxford Dean Goods, total motor failure in one, found it wasn't fitted with the 5 pole motor with two flywheels as originally announced but a cheap 3 pole coreless with one flywheel.

Second runs OK so far but hasn't had a lot of use.

 

So away from Hornby & Bachmann the others haven't stacked up so well.

 

Hence waiting until these 43XX & 61XX arrive and have been evaluated before purchase.

 

 

Quite right Keith. Caveat Emptor, let the buyer beware. But may I point out that both the Hattons & Oxford models aren't made by Dapol. Let the end result decide its case, rather than pre-judging the outcome without having all of the facts to hand, which no-one has yet.

 

Happy modelling,

Ian.

[Butler Henderson]

I would agree with Melmerby that anything Dapol is best left alone until its been released and judgement can be made on whether its a worthwhile purchase or not. Even when they get the basics right they all too often foul up on the livery and if they cannot get rail blue right on the 73 quite what shade of green will apply to the GW ones can only be hoped to something close to what it should be.

[sjrixon]

12 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I can't see your problem, Scott. Sure, you're having problems with your model, and I do sympathise. 

 

But! I'd suggest it's somewhat unfair to judge the unreleased Dapol model, when your problem stems from a quite older Bachmann model....

 

Example:-  I don't think I'll buy the latest Fiat 500, because I'm still having trouble with my 1981 Mini Metro.........

 

 

Not quite what I meant... I want a Dapol one just haven't clicked yet..

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

I would agree with Melmerby that anything Dapol is best left alone until its been released and judgement can be made on whether its a worthwhile purchase or not. Even when they get the basics right they all too often foul up on the livery and if they cannot get rail blue right on the 73 quite what shade of green will apply to the GW ones can only be hoped to something close to what it should be.

 

Yet if you read online other companies are notorious for getting the colours wrong as well, so should you be amending your comment to "anything by anyone is best left alone until it's been released and judgement can be made"?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

7 minutes ago, mdvle said:

Yet if you read online other companies are notorious for getting the colours wrong as well, so should you be amending your comment to "anything by anyone is best left alone until it's been released and judgement can be made"?

Plenty of other things that haven't been right on RTR OO models from every manufacturer I have so far sampled, take your pick from : dimensions, shape, detail, omissions, intrusions, mechanical, assembly, performance, robustness and reliability.

 

But so what? If you don't like the way it looks, you don't buy, and if it looks OK and you do purchase and it isn't good enough in some other respect(s), return to retailer for refund or replacement as you consider appropriate. Better news, the standard is overall improving, if the selection of product that is of interest to me constitutes a representative sample.

And on the evidence of my sole Dapol loco purchase, one NBL DE type 2 in as first in service condition, good job. Some more model subjects originating from well North of London, produced to this standard would be welcome.

[The Johnster]

It's easy to be fooled by first impressions as well.  I can remember when the first Mainline locos appeared on the scene all those years ago, to rave magazine reviews.  They were part of the 'new wave' of hi-fi RTR models where one could expect as a normal thing underframe details and light beneath boilers, and separate handrails, the precursors of today's RTR paragons.  I was very impressed with their split axle/chassis pickup, which seemed to me to have the potential to provide virtually frictionless drive and very reliable connection from the track to the motor terminals.  In the event it didn't quite work out like that; I still reckon split axle pick up is the way to go but it clearly needs better design, better build quality, and better materials than Palitoy were able to provide.  I'm sure that Mainline were as convinced as I was at the time that they were on the right track, but we were both wrong on that one...

 

The problem for Dapol in this respect is that they are still an unknown quantity.  We can predict fairly accurately how the Hornby 5101 will be set up and how it will run, but Dap do not have any recent form in steam outline models of this sort of size; in fact they are not producing any steam outline locos at all at the moment according to their online catalogue.  If you want a mogul, of course Dap are the only RTR game in town that even has anything in the pipeline.  So Dapol motors and drive mechanisms for steam outline are possibly going to be very good indeed or possibly not; we won't know until we've tried them and even then we won't know for a while if there are any wear or performance issues that will arise after a short working life as with the Mainlines.  For me, assuming the prices will be in the same ballpark, the decider will be the best slow runner, but for other people haulage for instance may be a higher priority.

[Butler Henderson]

20 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Yet if you read online other companies are notorious for getting the colours wrong as well, so should you be amending your comment to "anything by anyone is best left alone until it's been released and judgement can be made"?

That is my normal approach anyway but I am struggling as to which company constantly fouls up as much as Dapol with liveries either in colour or application of lettering / logo.

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

That is my normal approach anyway but I am struggling as to which company constantly fouls up as much as Dapol with liveries either in colour or application of lettering / logo.

 

Dapol had some moguls on display a few weeks back, with preliminary displays of  the lining & colour. Despite Dapol themselves saying that it was for evaluation purposes, everyone was jumping off the high board.  

 

I think people ought to display their personal  'facts' about un-released products, before you run around besmirching something. 

 

Mind you, I never bought a Mars Bar after they changed the name from Marathon to Snickers...... Jeez.  

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Dapol had some moguls on display a few weeks back, with preliminary displays of  the lining & colour. Despite Dapol themselves saying that it was for evaluation purposes, everyone was jumping off the high board.  

 

I think people ought to display their personal  'facts' about un-released products, before you run around besmirching something. 

 

Mind you, I never bought a Mars Bar after they changed the name from Marathon to Snickers...... Jeez.  

I’ll eat a Mars Bar but I won’t buy Marathons any more. “Snickers” sounds rather offensive. Nice to know there is another ex-(pea)nutter at large!

 

I’m rather looking forward to what Dapol comes up with. Perhaps things do go a little awry sometimes. As far as I can tell from photographs, the Class 29 blue looks nearly as bad as Hornby’s Lord Nelson BR green. If the 59s are as good as the 68s and the Moguls & Prairies are as good as the B4s, we have treats coming our way. 

[Steamport Southport]

M or upside down W? That is the question....     

 

Look at the Bubblecars to see what I mean. Dapol are still liable to make elementary errors which should be getting picked up. 

 

 

As an aside Snickers chocolate bars were named after a racehorse owned by the Mars family. A name which was meaningless in the UK so we got Marathon instead. If it was British then you would probably have an LNER Pacific named Snickers.  

 

https://www.rewindandcapture.com/why-is-snickers-called-snickers/

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

On 18/02/2020 at 17:27, melmerby said:

The NRM got Oxford to do the Dean Goods and just look at trials and tribulations with that!

We eventually ended up with a decent model and Oxford then stuffed it by binning the 5 pole motor for a weak coreless one.
 

Incorrect - the NRM did not 'get Oxford to do the Dean Goods' rather Oxford produced a model of the Dean Goods which was offered to the NRM.   And as a result of the NRM's comments on the number of errors in the original Oxford model quite a number of things on it were rectified for the NRM version.  So the 'decent model' was very much down to the NRM wanting something better than the original Oxford offering.

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

As an aside Snickers chocolate bars were named after a racehorse owned by the Mars family. A name which was meaningless in the UK so we got Marathon instead. If it was British then you would probably have an LNER Pacific named Snickers.  

 

https://www.rewindandcapture.com/why-is-snickers-called-snickers/

 

 

 

 

Jason

That’s a surprise because usually old race horses go into dog food not chocolate bars 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by boxbrownie

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎19‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 00:48, The Johnster said:

... problem for Dapol in this respect is that they are still an unknown quantity.  We can predict fairly accurately how the Hornby 5101 will be set up and how it will run, but Dap do not have any recent form in steam outline models of this sort of size; in fact they are not producing any steam outline locos at all at the moment according to their online catalogue.  If you want a mogul, of course Dap are the only RTR game in town that even has anything in the pipeline.  So Dapol motors and drive mechanisms for steam outline are possibly going to be very good indeed or possibly not; we won't know until we've tried them and even then we won't know for a while if there are any wear or performance issues that will arise after a short working life...

The 'Black Label Range' A4 was unhelpful in terms of forming an impression of what they might be about, as informed commentary on the drive train was very limited. A few posters reported significant problems, but with no insight into what had gone wrong to cause the lack of drive. However that project seems to have died the death, so is probably now effectively irrelevant.

 

The news on the B4 shortly after it went on sale has been good AFAIK in respect of the mechanism performance. It does what it should on track, and I haven't seen reports of significant problems since. Next checkpoint on the mechanism front should be the Terrier.

 

I would be quietly optimistic. There are clearly a good number of Chinese manufacturing partners fully competent in HO drive trains, and if the evidence of the B4, 68 and 21/29 reflects Dapol having engaged one or more such, then all should be well.