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OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie


Paul.Uni
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23 hours ago, Philou said:

Ummm ..... perhaps I did. But the Manor is also on my shopping list as that was recently announced ;).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

But another could well be here first - we don't know do we but if getting wind of another caused them to announce ...   ...?  So as long as Dapol get on with the stuff they've had in hand to some time (the mogul and prairie) that is what matters.   Question - are they just doing the one bunker back on the prairie or are they doing the original one as well? 

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27 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Question - are they just doing the one bunker back on the prairie or are they doing the original one as well? 

 

Seemingly both, given they are doing 5108 and an early 5109, but I don't have info on when the early engines got modded (if at all),

 

 

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1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Seemingly both, given they are doing 5108 and an early 5109, but I don't have info on when the early engines got modded (if at all),

 

 

According to the RCTS history 3100s were altered to have a recessed fender added between 1933 and 1939 but some had a recessed bunker extension to match (no running numbers available sorry).  5101 --10 had the recessed fender above the bunker from new but from 5150 onwards the upper half of the bunker extension was recessed to match and some(?) earlier engines were at some time altered to bring them in line with the later style. The 61XX were similar in detail to contemporaneous 5101s so had the full recessed bunker and fender from new.

 

So 5108/9 as built only had the recessed top fender and no recess in the bunker extension.  i understood that the Hornby tooling has (or was intended to have) the necessary provision for either type of recess so could represent 5101-10 as built.

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1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

i understood that the Hornby tooling has (or was intended to have) the necessary provision for either type of recess so could represent 5101-10 as built.

 

The Hornby tooling does appear to allow for a different insert at the upper part of the bunker, but having had a brief flick through the Hornby prairie thread, there seems to be no immediate plans to cater for those locos (5101-10 as built) with no recess in the top part of the bunker.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry but no time to read through all the posts on this 40 page thread, so here’s my question. I am interested in the 2-6-0 with the outside steam pipes and shirt button rondel. Anyone know whether the loco number being offered actually represents one of the locos from the time period after the steam pipes were moved outside? Also is there any information as to what year that loco was modified with external steam pipes? From the info I have seen these modifications were made between 1928-1958 so it would be nice to know where this loco fits in the spread. I like the looks of the modified locos but my time period only extends to about 1936.

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2 hours ago, Cofga said:

Sorry but no time to read through all the posts on this 40 page thread, so here’s my question. I am interested in the 2-6-0 with the outside steam pipes and shirt button rondel. Anyone know whether the loco number being offered actually represents one of the locos from the time period after the steam pipes were moved outside? Also is there any information as to what year that loco was modified with external steam pipes? From the info I have seen these modifications were made between 1928-1958 so it would be nice to know where this loco fits in the spread. I like the looks of the modified locos but my time period only extends to about 1936.

As far as I can see from Dapol's website the only Mogul with the roundel is 6385.  If so it was fitted with outside steampipes in April 1932.  Hope this answers your question.

Ray.

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3 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

As far as I can see from Dapol's website the only Mogul with the roundel is 6385.  If so it was fitted with outside steampipes in April 1932.  Hope this answers your question.

Ray.

Great, that’s the one I’ll order then. I just wish they were doing one with steam pipes and the Great Western name on the tender, my personal favorite. Thanks again.

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17 hours ago, Cofga said:

Great, that’s the one I’ll order then. I just wish they were doing one with steam pipes and the Great Western name on the tender, my personal favorite. Thanks again.

You know you can remove what’s on the loco and add your own transfers don’t you. 

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1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

You know you can remove what’s on the loco and add your own transfers don’t you. 

You could always add spare Dapol steampipes to the desired livery as well so worth checking other differences such as buffer types etc as the late monogram one might not be quite suitable for an earlier loco?

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8 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

You know you can remove what’s on the loco and add your own transfers don’t you. 

Yes, I’ve done that to 2 Bachmann 0-6-0PT’s and a Collet Good’s 0-6-0. However since I don’t have ready access to a list of locos and their modification dates I would prefer to stick with the stock Dapol versions and assume they are accurate. I still need to renumber that one as it is 3202 which really is too late a number for my time period. Thanks for all the suggestions.

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On 22/04/2020 at 00:15, Cofga said:

Great, that’s the one I’ll order then. I just wish they were doing one with steam pipes and the Great Western name on the tender, my personal favorite. Thanks again.

 

I believe the 1925 built  43XX had outside steam pipes from new.  6362 - 6369  and 7320/1.

Logically they would also have had the Great Western in full on the tender.   The numbers got out of sequence as 6370- 99 and 7300-10 were built in 1921/2 by Robert Stephenson and Hawthorn (RSH).     No great difficulty to change to brass plates as 6365 and change the 8 to a 6 on the buffer beam with a blob of paint.

 The side window cab 93XX series also had outside steampipes from new 

The other locos were only fitted with outside steam pipes when they needed new cylinders, they could be bored to 19" and then fitted with liners so they lasted quite a while, 25 years or so.  K.J.Cook arranged for complete front ends to be assembled and kept in stock to fit to locos needing new cylinders, The 43XX only had outside steam pipes to show the difference but 28XX, Saint, etc also got curved front ends. Logically it would have been the earlier 43XX which needed new cylinders first and these had two different types of cab to the 1925 locos, though I don't know the change point, somewhere round 5370?  

With over 300 43XX the tenders were swapped frequently as several would be in works at one time. Some other loco types needed the footplate at the loco end to be raised up so they tended to stay with that class of loco and didn't gt swapped so frequently.    If loco or tender paint was generally in good nick but dull a rub down and re varnish would suffice so leaving the old lettering roundel etc in place. I thin a fair bit of that went on as some GWR lettered  tenders were still around in the 1960s.  Or did someone craftily paint GWR on when no one from BR HQ was watching?

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4 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

 The side window cab 93XX series also had outside steampipes from new but by 1932 it would have been roundel surely?.

 

The Roundel appeared in 1934 and not at the start of the year either.

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4 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

The side window cab 93XX series also had outside steampipes from new but by 1932 it would have been roundel surely?.

 

93Xx appeared with Great Western on the tender. I understood the roundel came i in 1934.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Churchward-Locomotives/Churchward-Tender-Locomotives/Churchward-4300-Class-Mogul/Churchward-Mogul/i-c6WfmN5

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

If the roundel came out in '34, then there's a good chance that Great Western could have remained on tenders until the early '40s depending on shopping. 

 

 

While there is no photo Saint 2921 is recorded in GWRJ no7 as having been in wartime black running with a green tender with the Great Western (full words) branding in 1944/45 up to withdrawl.

 

So certainly not implausable that a 4300 could have lasted that long with the old branding (though it would no doubt be filthy)

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25 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

While there is no photo Saint 2921 is recorded in GWRJ no7 as having been in wartime black running with a green tender with the Great Western (full words) branding in 1944/45 up to withdrawl.

 

So certainly not implausable that a 4300 could have lasted that long with the old branding (though it would no doubt be filthy)

The GWR didn't repaint just for the sake of it.

If the paintwork was OK why re-do it?

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I see Rails of Sheffield have the prairie in various guises from £115.56 available for pre-order, a saving on the £135.95 current RRP.  Hornby's 5101/61xx RRP is £149.  Now, no doubt the price of both locos will have risen by the time the Dapol gets to market, and Hornby's will very likely be first on the scene so will take the fullest advantage of whatever reservoir of demand for this loco has built up, but for my money, since a 5101 is a a bit of a luxury for me but I definitely want one, there is a distinct chance that the 5101 I go for will be a Dapol.  Of course, this is predicated on the price differential being maintained and the comparative reviews for both locos, and studying Ms Prism's comments as well, but it will be something to keep me amused until the Dapol prairie is 'out'.

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The GWR archive website says 

 

Quote

One hundred and sixty-three members of the class were fitted with outside steam pipes and new cylinders between July 1928 and August 1958.
 


But does that mean these were the only locos in the class to receive outside steam pipes or that some were originally built with them and this 163 were modified in addition to them? My assumption was the former and that the outside pipes were a modification only and not an original build option. Interestingly, in comparing the photos on Hatton’s website I cannot see any difference in the cylinders, so was there a noticeable difference in the rebuilt loco cylinders or were they just new with different apertures to accommodate the outside steam pipes? 
 

Also since you brought up the roundel, according to the GWR Archive website the GWR shirt button roundel used from 1934-42 was gilt (which I assume meant metallic gold) when applied to locos and yellow on brown rolling stock. However on the Dapol model as shown in the Hatton’s website photos the roundel is yellow not gilt. So who is correct Dapol or the GWR archive? Or was there some variation during the time period of use?

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Dates they got the outside steam pipes here. I think the cylinders were slightly enlarged but it wouldn't be noticeable. Some were withdrawn before getting them.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=126002&type=S&page=mods

 

Don't forget that 100 of the Moguls were rebuilt as Manor and Grange 4-6-0s in the 1930s. 

 

Gilt for all roundels apart from those on the brown Non Passenger Coaching Stock (horseboxes, parcels vans, Siphons, etc) which were yellow.

 

Manufacturers do make mistakes when it comes to liveries. Such as the Hornby SR Brake Vans and Dapol Class 73s (where at least one was painted in a strange version of blue).

 

 

 

Jason

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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Dates they got the outside steam pipes here. I think the cylinders were slightly enlarged but it wouldn't be noticeable. Some were withdrawn before getting them.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=126002&type=S&page=mods

 

Don't forget that 100 of the Moguls were rebuilt as Manor and Grange 4-6-0s in the 1930s. 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

As Jason says 100 moguls (88 43xx & 12 53/83xx) were withdrawn between 2/36 and 8/39 to be 'rebuilt' as 68/78xx. However we can discount any of these as the Dapol model (with later motion plate and 'normal' middle splasher) only represents locos built from lot 211 onwards (nos 5390 - 7321) aka '63xx'

As regards the outside steam pipes, as David said, 10 (6362-9 & 7320/1) were so fitted from new, 95 '63xx' were retro fitted between 1931 and 1959 and 26 kept inside steampipes until withdrawal. I have seen no reference to the replacement cylinders being anything other than the original, nominal 18 1/2" dia.  The new cylinders did, however, now have 3 visible draincocks.

The Moguls are a real 'minefield' for the modeller, not least, due to Swindon's interchangeability policy.  Wheels could be 'crankpin in line with spokes' or 'crankpin between spokes'. The No4 boilers were interchangeable so a loco could have low firebox side washout plugs or, later, high ones.  If the boiler came from a 42/52xx the chimney may not have a capuchon. An inside steampipe loco might acquire a boiler last fitted to an o/s steampipe fitted loco and have circular patches on the smokebox!  One mogul still carried one of the early large dia. parallel chimneys until 1949.  The short safety valve bonnets were introduced from 1926 but some of the tall ones were carried right to the end. Early locos had small 'porthole' windows in the cab front but, when abandoned, some had them plated over, some filled in flush.  Buffers also varied, originally the Dean taper type gradually being replaced by the parallel 'Turton' type.  5399 still had the taper type after1957 and tenders often kept the Dean type while the loco had the Turton type.

David Andrews' excellent volume "The Churchward 2-6-0's" has a photo of 6323 still with "Great Western", in full, on the tender as late as 26/5/39.

As always reference to a dated photo is recommended. On the other hand one could always trust that Dapol did their research!

Hope this helps (probably also helps with insomnia!)

Ray.

Edited by Marshall5
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