OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Dunsignalling]

11 hours ago, No Decorum said:

 

Thank you. That’s a useful video and seems to show the hesitation Sam’s Trains found. The centre tender wheelset can be seen to stick as Karl observed.

I've not yet purchased one of these, but a couple of thoughts occur.

 

Hesitation: My Hornby Prairie initially did something similar; cured by a drop of oil on each crankpin and the crosshead.

 

Tender wheels: experiences with Bachmann N class moguls were rectified by filing a tiny amount off the ends of the middle axle to  increase vertical and end play. Not always needed, though. By removing all the wheels and measuring the axles one sometimes finds one a bit shorter than the others. Just move that one to the middle,

 

John

Edited November 18, 2020 by Dunsignalling
Typo

[Pteremy]

On 14/11/2020 at 20:20, MatthewCarty said:

I have just found a photo and must offer my sincere apologies to Dapol as it does appear to be an anomaly of the subject which has been modelled correctly. Impressive that this is right and it wasn't just a case of BR black = lamp iron on the door for them.

 

As mine has now arrived I can confirm that it has two lamp irons. A set of lamp irons is listed amongst the spares so I think that the top one should be easily removed, leaving only a small hole to be filled and requiring a dab of paint.

[SDJR7F88]

1 hour ago, Adrock said:

It looks like it won’t be too long until the spares are loaded onto the DCC website. At least then we will get an idea of what is available and the price. 
 

Spotted that too. I'm hanging fire on a purchase for now, until the parts are listed. Just in case

[Pteremy]

I may be wrong but on my 6324 the upper slide bars look straight and you have to look quite hard to see a bend on the lower ones - I doubt that i would have noticed if it hadn't been pointed out.

[Pteremy]

1 minute ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Spotted that too. I'm hanging fire on a purchase for now, until the parts are listed. Just in case

 

The booklet you get with the model has a list of spares covering 4 pages - looks like you can get virtually the whole thing in bits!

[liathach]

Just received 6336 this morning. 

 

Aesthetically, the loco looks excellent.

 

Control-wise,  I'm on DCC.  Zimo MX618n18 installed earlier.  I own many other steam engines and diesels the UK RTR manufacturers. 

 

I'm sorry to confirm that the starting from standing to step one is just not acceptable.  I have tried every conceivable alteration of motor-related CVs. At all values of CV9 below 101, the engine jumps seemingly instantaneously to a very, very fast step one.  If CV9 is set to a value above 100, you get annoying humming from the motor, although the transition from standing is improved.  I've tried changing max voltage, reducing CV58 throughout the range.  I've also tried alterations to CVs 57, 112, 23, 66, 95 and CVs145-150.  None of these have cured the instantaneous jump from standing.

 

Above step one, fine, but the starting performance is utterly unrealistic compared to everything else I have.

 

I'm toying with the idea of taking the loco apart to see if another motor would sit in easily in-case it's a poor motor.  If I was a better engineer in miniature, I would want to strip the thing down and change the gearing to improved slow-speed running.

 

I

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by liathach

[MikeParkin65]

4 minutes ago, liathach said:

Just received 6336 this morning. 

 

Aesthetically, the loco looks excellent.

 

Control-wise,  I'm on DCC.  Zimo MX618n18 installed earlier.  I own many other steam engines and diesels the UK RTR manufacturers. 

 

I'm sorry to confirm that the starting from standing to step one is just not acceptable.  I have tried every conceivable alteration of motor-related CVs. At all values of CV9 below 101, the engine jumps seemingly instantaneously to a very, very fast step one.  I've tried changing max voltage, reducing CV58 throughout the range.  I've also tried alterations to CVs 57, 112, 23, 66, 95 and CVs145-150.  None of these have cured the instantaneous jump from standing.

 

Above step one, fine, but the starting performance is utterly unrealistic compared to everything else I have.

 

 

 

Have you tried setting 'start voltage' - Zimo defaults to 0 for this. I haven't had to do this to any of my current locos' (haven't got a 63xx) but worth a try. Thanks for the heads up and please keep us posted

[liathach]

Just now, MikeParkin65 said:

Have you tried setting 'start voltage' - Zimo defaults to 0 for this. I haven't had to do this to any of my current locos' (haven't got a 63xx) but worth a try. Thanks for the heads up and please keep us posted

Yep, tried others.  Tried reducing max speed right down, although with mid speed.  Taking CV9 to the low-frequency control range does improve the starting acceleration to step one.  However, the unrealistic racket from the motor defeats the visual improvement.

 

[tomparryharry]

19 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Here’s a side view of the real thing. The motion bracket is to the front side of the saddle. So Dapol’s rendition isn’t far out.

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls219.htm
 

I'm pretty sure that the boiler saddle & motion brackets are bolted together on the real thing, so Dapol pretty much have it right. The flare on the slidebars is a bit of a catch 22 situation. In the full-sized version, Miss Prism had illustrated the relief needed to clear the rod  when the wheel is going through its bottom quarter (6 0'clock to 8 0'clock. I think you will accept that's a tall order to achieve in 4mm. I would wonder if the slidebar ends might be shortened by an imperceptible amount, without  compromising the integrity of the model. 

 

I'm still awaiting mine... 

 

Ian.

Edited November 18, 2020 by tomparryharry
Poor grammar, mamma.....

[liathach]

33 minutes ago, liathach said:

Yep, tried others.  Tried reducing max speed right down, although with mid speed.  Taking CV9 to the low-frequency control range does improve the starting acceleration to step one.  However, the unrealistic racket from the motor defeats the visual improvement.

 

I've just emailed Dapol and Rails to seek assistance first.  I've even asked if they are aware of alternative motors or gear arrangements that might yield better results.  Otherwise, I shall intend to send this locomotive back. 

[Harlequin]

2 minutes ago, liathach said:

I've just emailed Dapol and Rails to seek assistance first.  I've even asked if they are aware of alternative motors or gear arrangements that might yield better results.  Otherwise, I shall intend to send this locomotive back. 

Might be worth some further systematic debugging before you send it back. (Dapol are highly unlikely to say anything about other motors or gear trains - with RTR you get what you're given.)

 

Do you know if the decoder was at factory defaults when you first tried it? If not there could have been some odd setting in there so maybe try resetting the decoder and seeing if that helps.

 

Can you post a video here so we can see what you're seeing?

 

[tomparryharry]

I would imagine that the model passes through a  QC inspection, but on DC only. It's only afterwards that the fancy gizmos, like DCC & sound get installed. 

 

I think that's right... 

[Chuffer Davies]

26 minutes ago, liathach said:

I've just emailed Dapol and Rails to seek assistance first.  I've even asked if they are aware of alternative motors or gear arrangements that might yield better results.  Otherwise, I shall intend to send this locomotive back. 

Have you tried removing the chip and running it on analogue?  If the loco runs acceptably under analogue then the issue is with the DCC set up, if not you would be justified in sending it back.

 

Frank

[Oldddudders]

In more than 20 years of using DCC, I don't ever recall adjusting CV9. What value do you have in CV2?

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

I'm pretty sure that the boiler saddle & motion brackets are bolted together on the real thing, so Dapol pretty much have it right. The flare on the slidebars is a bit of a catch 22 situation. In the full-sized version, Miss Prism had illustrated the relief needed to clear the rod   when the wheel is going through its bottom quarter (6 0'clock to 8 0'clock. I think you will accept that's a tall order to achieve in 4mm. I would wonder if the slidebar ends might be shortened by an imperceptible amount, without  compromising the integrity of the model. 

 

I'm still awaiting mine... 

 

Ian.

To quote Yossarian, 'that's some catch, that catch 22'.  'The best', says Doc...

 

I was sort of thinking along the same lines when I asked if the crosshead was within the length of the slidbars before the splayed area of them at the '3 o'clock' crankpin position, with the piston rod fully extentded.  If so, some minor and visually acceptable trimming of the extreme rear ends of the slidebars could be undertaken, a mm or so, to improve clearance without compromising appearance unacceptably.  All 00 modelling is a compromise to some extent, true scale can only be achieved in P4, in which case vertical play of the centre axle and it's effect on the sit of the connecting rod must be taken into account, but should not be a problem if you built to dead scale.  Digression, we are talking about what is acceptable in a 00 RTR volume produced item here.

 

One could also reduce the throw of the crankpins slightly to gain extra clearance and shorten the 3 o'clock extension of the piston rod movement, and there are no doubt other dodges that can be employed.  I would say that the splayed ends of the slide bars are visually less acceptable than either of these compromises, but has has been said, in RTR it's a case of 'you get what you're given'  If Dapol do this to their prairie I'll be buying a Hornby one.

 

Poor running is another puttter offer, and I haven't seen Sam's vid but have looked at Adrock's.  Not apparently acceptable to my standards, though the sharp radius curves may not be giving the loco the best chance.  OTOH it should perform adequately on specified radius.  It looks like a tight spot rather than a motor or gearing issue, in which case the problem is perhpas caused or exascerbated by the sideplay of the driving wheels, so I'll maintain an open mind on this point; my minimum radius is no.3.  As with the Hornby prairie, Ian is welcome to test run his mogul on Cwmdimbath now lockdown is over in Wales, and we might even be able to arrange a can or two of beer as well!; PM me, bwtti bach!

 

But as things stand and unless I read reports here of improved running over time or methods of loosening the slow running up a little, especially on DC  call it a near miss with a good body tooling but compromised mech.  If I were in the market for a 43xx I'd be considering the body tooling sat on a Hornby donor or kit chassis, and suspect the same would apply with a Manor, but mine is a 100% tank engine railway.  If Dapol are offering parts or assmeblies as spares, depending on cost I might have been considering a complete chassis to further improve my existing large prairie with, but this is now very unlikely and the sensible thing to do is increasingly looking like the Hornby loco.  Dapol are a small independent and Welsh at that, so I'd like to support them in my minor way, but they are not quite coming up with the goods yet...

 

Again depending on cost, a mogul body tooling might find it's way to Cwmdimbath with the intention of using it as a kitbash aid to building Tondu's 1938 Collett 31xx 3100.  This would sit on top of a modified Airfix/Hornby chassis block with Comet bits and motion and Markits wheels/gears. and would probably need a new front buffer beam to get the buffers to sit correct height, but this is very much a vague and possible, rather than definite, future intention, and the Baccy 94xx, a Hornby large prairie, Southeastern chassis for a Wills 1854, and a Comet E147 B set are needed first.  And if my wishlisting for an improved RTR 2721 bears fruit, it will be knocked even further down the shopping list; I may well myself have been withdrawn from service and scrapped by that time...

[Opelsi]

Received mine today [6336], lovely locomotive.

Ran it in and then fitted one of Dapol's own 'Next 18' decoders.

Even using the supplied tool, I could not shift the smokebox door. Had to resort to part dropping the chassis to pop the smokebox door out from behind with said tool, though not really an issue.

I use an ESU ECoS and with the Dapol decoder it can set off very slow and controlled, no noticeable initial lurching forward from standing.

My only comment is that the firebox glow is almost imperceptible unless the room lights are switched off, and even then it is still only very faint indeed.

I've since looked on the Dapol website for CV setting for their Imperium decoder, and am still none the wiser on how I should adjust to brighten and/or flicker - any ideas please anyone? 

 

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, liathach said:

I've just emailed Dapol and Rails to seek assistance first.  I've even asked if they are aware of alternative motors or gear arrangements that might yield better results.  Otherwise, I shall intend to send this locomotive back. 

Good luck with Dapol, after twice failing to repair it they just ignored my correspondence regarding my streamlined Railcar sound faults (even though I had sent them photographic evidence of the poor factory installation) I recently sent the Zimo chip to a supplier for a reblow (in case it was the sound file at fault) and it turns out it was the chip which was damaged so I paid for the Zimo replacement service, Dapol are useless, total waste of time.

 

Please do update us.

[melmerby]

13 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

  Dapol are a small independent and Welsh at that, so I'd like to support them in my minor way, but they are not quite coming up with the goods yet...

 

 

Sorry they are not Welsh

Their registered office & factory have a Welsh postcode but are actually in Shropshire.

The Welsh border is half a mile away at the River Ceiriog

https://goo.gl/maps/hL6C6cZUwfyVyvpj7

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by melmerby

[Opelsi]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Sorry they are not Welsh

Their registered office & factory have a Welsh postcode but are actually in Shropshire.

That is interesting.

I have some of their older product which is box labelled as 'Made in Wales' though of course they could have moved since then.

[Legend]

8 minutes ago, Opelsi said:

That is interesting.

I have some of their older product which is box labelled as 'Made in Wales' though of course they could have moved since then.

 

Didn't they have a fire ? They might have moved premises then . I always thought they were in Wales , myself 

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Opelsi said:

That is interesting.

I have some of their older product which is box labelled as 'Made in Wales' though of course they could have moved since then.

It was discussed on RMWeb a few weeks ago.

 

Check the postcode on the box, this is their current address:

Gledrid Industrial Park
Chirk
Wrexham
LL14 5DG

[melmerby]

IMHO the Hornby Prairie has a better slide bar arrangement.

By keeping the connecting rod just behind the slide bars and lowering the cylinder centre line, no tapering is required.

It doesn't look wrong to my eye, even though it is.

[Marshall5]

1 hour ago, Opelsi said:

That is interesting.

I have some of their older product which is box labelled as 'Made in Wales' though of course they could have moved since then.

Their factory used to be in Llangollen adjacent to the trackbed on the Ruabon side of the bridge.  Ex LR loco Richboro' was displayed in their car park for a while.  Hence "made in Wales" would have been correct at the time.

Ray.

[rembrow]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

Didn't they have a fire ? They might have moved premises then . I always thought they were in Wales , myself 

Their first factory was in Winsford, Cheshire, set up in the early 1980s. It was while moving to Llangollen that the Winsford factory caught fire with significant damage. Most of the stock and tooling had already been transferred.

 

 

[Harlequin]

Here's my 6336 starting up and running at speed step 1 for 4 chuffs:

 

Zimo MX659N18 decoder. Speed table set up to reduce top speed by half.

Tender middle axle rotates fine.

No hesitation, no jumps.

 

(Tender body off while I test out different speakers.)