OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[john dew]

My apologies.......this shouldnt be here.......I have re posted it in my Granby thread

 

Something different to start



We live on the edge of the North Shore Mountains overlooking the Port of Vancouver and Burrard Inlet. Facing South East, if you are up early enough, you can capture the sun rise. You have to be quick......this was gone in seconds.

600' below us the inlet and most of the Port are shrouded in mist. The mountain at the back is Mount Rainier, 200 miles away in Washington State

Back at Granby the hotel is progressing as I create the foundation structure for both the rear and the roof. Cutting and glueing 2mm grey board isnt very exciting although shortly I should be able to post some photos that show what I have been up to.

As I have said before I have developed the bad habit of focussing on the project of the moment to the detriment of all manner of other repairs and improvements.

You may remember the Metcalfe Warehouse that screens the entrance to the Storage Yards?



I tried to make the scene a bit more interesting by adding some figures unloading a crate from a lorry
.




Its all a bit superficial.....the chains round the crate wouldnt lift much .....they were just odds and ends left over from the Tank/Warwell exercise.

Doug (Chubber), a long time and extremely helpful follower of this thread, pointed out that the unrelieved pressure of the chains would shatter the crate!

He spared my blushes by sending me a PM and followed it up with some detailed instructions of the proper way to do this job

 

 
I am ashamed to admit that this conversation took place in April! How time flies when you are building Hotels. The warehouse is just behind the Computor Monitor.......I see the scene every time I go to the railway room.....it was a constant reminder of my bad habits.

I finally "got round tuit" last month:



Its not the neatest model and I never did qualify for the Scouts knots badge  but I hope that it is now technically correct




Spreader from scrap 2" x  4" relieve the pressure on two bridles

The bridles have eyes (rings) at both ends. The rings are suspended from the bar of a shackle. The shackle is suspended from the hook of the hoist

A light line is attached to the crate to prevent it from spinning




Everything is a bit overscale. I found it impossible to thread and secure the "rope" to scale eyes. The eyes I eventually used were too big for the coupling shackle I intended to use. I had to scratch build a larger shackle from brass strip. Achieving and maintaining equal tension on the bridles was character building.

So there we have it from my normal viewing position........another job ticked off the list



Whats this.........a bus on a bridge???


Special dispensation .......its in the family:



 

 

 

Keep Safe

Edited December 17, 2020 by john dew
Posted in wrong thread

[Mallard60022]

43 minutes ago, john dew said:

Something different to start



We live on the edge of the North Shore Mountains overlooking the Port of Vancouver and Burrard Inlet. Facing South East, if you are up early enough, you can capture the sun rise. You have to be quick......this was gone in seconds.

600' below us the inlet and most of the Port are shrouded in mist. The mountain at the back is Mount Rainier, 200 miles away in Washington State

Back at Granby the hotel is progressing as I create the foundation structure for both the rear and the roof. Cutting and glueing 2mm grey board isnt very exciting although shortly I should be able to post some photos that show what I have been up to.

As I have said before I have developed the bad habit of focussing on the project of the moment to the detriment of all manner of other repairs and improvements.

You may remember the Metcalfe Warehouse that screens the entrance to the Storage Yards?



I tried to make the scene a bit more interesting by adding some figures unloading a crate from a lorry
.




Its all a bit superficial.....the chains round the crate wouldnt lift much .....they were just odds and ends left over from the Tank/Warwell exercise.

Doug (Chubber), a long time and extremely helpful follower of this thread, pointed out that the unrelieved pressure of the chains would shatter the crate!

He spared my blushes by sending me a PM and followed it up with some detailed instructions of the proper way to do this job

 

 
I am ashamed to admit that this conversation took place in April! How time flies when you are building Hotels. The warehouse is just behind the Computor Monitor.......I see the scene every time I go to the railway room.....it was a constant reminder of my bad habits.

I finally "got round tuit" last month:



Its not the neatest model and I never did qualify for the Scouts knots badge  but I hope that it is now technically correct




Spreader from scrap 2" x  4" relieve the pressure on two bridles

The bridles have eyes (rings) at both ends. The rings are suspended from the bar of a shackle. The shackle is suspended from the hook of the hoist

A light line is attached to the crate to prevent it from spinning




Everything is a bit overscale. I found it impossible to thread and secure the "rope" to scale eyes. The eyes I eventually used were too big for the coupling shackle I intended to use. I had to scratch build a larger shackle from brass strip. Achieving and maintaining equal tension on the bridles was character building.

So there we have it from my normal viewing position........another job ticked off the list



Whats this.........a bus on a bridge???


Special dispensation .......its in the family:



 

 

 

Keep Safe

Love 'the Project'; concentrate as often as you wish with that sort of thing John. 

Phil (36E)

[melmerby]

I have now given my mogul a good period of running in, which has improved the running.

However this is far from the smoothest running loco I have, which is borne out by the high start voltage on DC, It is still about 3.9v forward and 3.3v backward, higher the most other locos I have.

When it starts it gallops off at too high a speed for a crawl.

So I have now purchased two Dapol locos and neither are top notch for running abilities

 

Nevertheless I went on and fitted a decoder (Zimo MX618N18).

It definitely runs better on DCC but still far from perfect with noticeable jerking at slow speed when going forwards, it does however run very smoothly in reverse.

 

IMHO the running quality is hampered by the ridiculously high top speed - 125mph before trimming back. What an absolutely stupid choice of gearing.

 

My opinion: Good, but could be better.

Still worth buying.

[JST]

Keith,

It is interesting to see how we are all getting different running qualities from our Moguls. I have just been up to the railway room to play...er I mean run the layout and the Mogul has performed flawlessly. I have set the shunt speed to 5mph and the cruise speed to 45mph (I use Railmaster) which seems perfect for this loco. I hope yours improves with more running.

 

I will be ordering a Manor on the strength of my experience with the Mogul.

 

To set a contrast, I have just fitted my Hornby Railroad Hall class (a half decent model for the money) with TTS sound. The sound is good and the loco runs brilliantly. This is all for less than 90 quid from Hattons!

[Mallard60022]

Finally I have tested 7310 on the RR. Faultless so far and nice, smooth running both forward and in reverse, with an old H & M Duette. That is a relief. It only needs to perform, in the future, once in a Blue Moon. However I shall ensure it is ready for action by making the necessary adjustments and checking the lube points etc. I think that even I will be able to fit the Decoder to thus loco.

Phil

[Harlequin]

I emailed Dapol two weeks ago about the lack of external steam pipes on 6385. Here's a copy:

 

Quote

To: neil@Dapol.co.uk

 

Hi,

Congratulations on the new OO Mogul models. They are beautiful and the technical design is very clever.

I have 6336 and I'm interested in 6385 (4S-043-002) but I have a question about the steam pipes on 6385.

Early publicity photos show the model with outside steam pipes and many of the retailers still show them. For instance:
https://www.hattons.co.uk/333465/dapol_4s_043_002s_class_43xx_mogul_2_6_0_6385_in_gwr_green_with_shirtbutton_emblem_dcc_sound_fitt/stockdetail.aspx

The sources say that 6385 received external steam pipes in April 1932, so she had them before the introduction of the Roundel livery.

Why does the production model of 6385 not have external steam pipes?

Follow-on question: Could you supply external steam pipes as spares for this model? That would help address the 6385 question in a straightforward way and, since their presence varied widely across the class, would help modellers who want to renumber their locos.

Looking forward to your answer and with your permission I'd like to share it with the members of RMWeb.

Thanks,

Phil Martin

 

I concede it could have been better written but... No reply... Draw your own conclusions.

 

The Mogul spare parts are all now listed on the DCC Supplies website. Steam pipes are not among them.

 

P.S. The drawbar assembly is a spare so if the mechanism does weaken over time it could in theory be replaced.

 

[gwrrob]

Those who bought the GWR version with the BR smokebox numbers will be pleased to see the plain version available.

 

https://www.dccsupplies.com/cat-1189/mogul-mogul-oo.htm/5/?pp=9999

[tomparryharry]

I do wonder if this is a case of rising standards by familiarity. A classic example was the DJM 48xx. The first batches appeared to be rough, but the last ones (4871 ) ran a lot better. I've put it down to the familiarity gained by the assembly staff.  Fair play, looking at the first one,   the first ones will be new to them. But, by the time they arrive at the end of the batch, I'll bet that the assemblers get it spot-on as their quality appreciation grows.  Good for them, I say. 

 

This of course bodes well for the Manor. I don't particularly need a Manor, but I will want one, looking at the current trend.  Taking a long view, it looks good for the future.    As an aside, I wouldn't mind betting that Dapol can produce some of the lesser known Western fleet, based on the assumption that quality will sell. Naturally, real obscure locomotives won't necessarily happen, but if we take a rational view that there is a ready market, then Dapol might be enticed to step a little further out of the mainstream. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.     

[Miss Prism]

It's such a shame that Dapol believe an 16:1 gear ratio is acceptable for a medium-wheeled steam loco.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Miss Prism
mistakenly quoting 18:1

[Oldddudders]

We live in difficult times. I'm not really a GWR person, but 12 days ago I ordered a Mogul from a second-tier model shop, from whom I have had excellent previous service. Evidently they have given up on Royal Mail, because they entrusted my loco to DHL - hardly a cause for complaint. A couple of days ago I became aware that the loco was at Nantes, which is 140 miles away by road. Tonight at 18.00 (Saturday!) I had a call from a van-driver on his hands-free - evidently the address on the parcel is incomplete, so he only knows my post-village. I have now texted him my full address. A colleague of his may turn up Monday, maybe not. Meanwhile the lens I ordered from Germany last Monday, i.e. a week later, and which was sent via DHL in Germany, was delivered this morning by smiling postie. 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

It's such a shame that Dapol believe an 18:1 gear ratio is acceptable for a medium-wheeled steam loco.

 

If that's what it is I have to agree with you.

Even the old Triang of yore used 20:1 and that was not the era of accurate models.

 

IMHO 30:1 would have still given a decent top speed for the train set market and more reasonable slow running.

I wonder whether it could be changed?

 

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, gwrrob said:

Those who bought the GWR version with the BR smokebox numbers will be pleased to see the plain version available.

 

https://www.dccsupplies.com/cat-1189/mogul-mogul-oo.htm/5/?pp=9999

This:

https://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-115052/43xx-mogul-oo-gauge-smokebox-door-with-dart.htm

 

However I think this price is incorrect by a decimal point:

https://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-115055/43xx-mogul-oo-gauge-smokebox-door-complete-6324.htm

 

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

If that's what it is I have to agree with you.

Even the old Triang of yore used 20:1 and that was not the era of accurate models.

 

IMHO 30:1 would have still given a decent top speed for the train set market and more reasonable slow running.

I wonder whether it could be changed?

 

 

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

It's such a shame that Dapol believe an 18:1 gear ratio is acceptable for a medium-wheeled steam loco.

 

I've just had a quick look at the DCC supplies web pages, which lists the Mogul gear set (115079 )  It might appear that there is a set of gears missing. I haven't had the time to have a close internal look, so I could be wrong. I would tend to agree that doubling the ratio ( 36:1 ) might prove beneficial.

Edited December 19, 2020 by tomparryharry
Information

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

I've just had a quick look at the DCC supplies web pages, which lists the Mogul gear set (115079 )  It might appear that there is a set of gears missing. I haven't had the time to have a close internal look, so I could be wrong. 

I expect a worm to be on the motor and the front driving wheels which are £2 more than the others, do include the axle gear.

[tomparryharry]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I expect a worm to be on the motor and the front driving wheels which are £2 more than the others, do include the axle gear.

 

You could well be correct, keith.  One wonders if the idler gear is in the wrong way about?

[Miss Prism]

Assuming the geartrain is the right way round, then the gear ratio looks to be more like 25:1, because I can't see that first gear having less than about 20 teeth. If the previously quoted 16:1 is correct, then the gears probably are fitted the wrong way round. It would be nice if someone could confirm.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Miss Prism

[Chuffer Davies]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Assuming the geartrain is the right way round, then the gear ratio looks to be more like 25:1, because I can't see that first gear having less than about 20 teeth. If the previously quoted 16:1 is correct, then the gears probably are fitted the wrong way round. It would be nice if someone could confirm.

 

Hi,

I've just tried assessing the ratio again and it could be 18:1 rather than the 16:1 I originally reported, but there is so much slack in my chassis that it is hard to be certain. 

 

I can't see there being a possible issue with the way that the gears have been installed.  If the image provided is a true representation of the gears from the Mogul then the worm has to engage with the larger diameter gear on the top axle, and because the lower gear is on its own then it is just acting as a transfer gear but has no impact on ratio's.  If we assume the gear on the driving wheel's axle is the same diameter as the 2nd gear partnered with the worm's pinion then the overall ratio will be determined by the worm and pinion only.  The pinion as illustrated here looks to have about 18 teeth which would support the revised 18:1 ratio I've suggested.   

 

It would need someone like Ultrascale to manufacture a bespoke replacement set of gears but the only thing that could readily be altered as I see it would be the worm and pinion ratio. Changing anything else would mean a fundamental change to the gear's housing as well.  I can't see this being a change that many customers would be willing to invest in particularly as it means almost totally dismantling the chassis to install replacements, as well as obtaining a gear puller to get the worm off the motor's shaft (assuming it will come off without destroying the motor).  The bottom line is that it is unlikely to be a financially viable undertaking to manufacture an alternate set of gears. 

 

At the end of the day it is what it is unless you are a madman like me and are prepared to eliminate the Dapol chassis and build your own replacement such as that from the Comet range. 

 

Frank

 

 

[Izzy]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Assuming the geartrain is the right way round, then the gear ratio looks to be more like 25:1, because I can't see that first gear having less than about 20 teeth. If the previously quoted 16:1 is correct, then the gears probably are fitted the wrong way round. It would be nice if someone could confirm.

 

If you look at these gears in isolation you’d guess that the overall reduction was higher than the first stage worm, I did initially, but when you look at the final gear on the wheel axle it seems smaller than the second stage - blue - wheel, so as Frank says the ratio drops back rather than further increasing. I doubt the gears are fitted wrong, the idler shaft centres would stop correct meshing. Taking the gears out and counting the individual numbers of teeth is of course the only real way of getting the precise final ratio but it’s moot really as anything less than around 30-1 seems a bit on the low side. 
 

Bob

[JST]

All this interesting discussion on the gearing is making me wonder if Dapol have changed something on mine when they did the factory sound fitting. Straight out of the box the performance has been faultless in all aspects relating to the motor. Slow running is excellent, pulling power is good and if I give it full power it is not over fast. I suppose you could say from my perspective Dapol have got the gearing spot on. However, I have no intention of pulling it apart to count gear teeth!

[57xx]

17 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I concede it could have been better written but... No reply... Draw your own conclusions.

 

Maybe the mention of RMWeb put them off.

[Rising Standards]

43 minutes ago, JST said:

All this interesting discussion on the gearing is making me wonder if Dapol have changed something on mine when they did the factory sound fitting...Slow running is excellent...and if I give it full power it is not over fast.

 

It's likely that the sound project has the top speed limited on the decoder, giving performance that will be realistic straight from the box as you say. A video from Dapol a few months back showed a sound fitted pre-production model running on Bredon (formerly at Pecorama), which is now owned by MrSoundguy who does Dapol's sound projects, so doubtless he'll have adjusted the decoder's motor control characteristics to suit the mechanism.

[tomparryharry]

Dapol don't always reply to e-mails.  No, I don't know why.  That said, Dapol will most likely listen to what's going on here. Looking at the list on the DCC supplies site, these external pipes are not listed. However, the list might be extended at a later date. 

 

Being 5 days before Christmas, the prospect of a product release from a Tier 4 location is likely to be rare.  That said, never say never....

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

 

Being 5 days before Christmas, the prospect of a product release from a Tier 4 location is likely to be rare.  That said, never say never....

 

Cheers,

Ian.

Dapol are in tier 2 and so are DCC supplies

[tomparryharry]

52 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Dapol are in tier 2 and so are DCC supplies

 

Aah, I made this assumption on the basis that from midnight last, Conwy went into tier 4. I was due to travel up there on a socially-distanced Christmas cake & Penderyn  delivery this morning, but circumstances change.  As for DCC supplies, I don't know what tier they are in.   

[melmerby]

32 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Aah, I made this assumption on the basis that from midnight last, Conwy went into tier 4. I was due to travel up there on a socially-distanced Christmas cake & Penderyn  delivery this morning, but circumstances change.  As for DCC supplies, I don't know what tier they are in.   

Dapol are in Shropshire, currently in Tier 2. (The Government website correctly identifies the 'Welsh' postcode as being in England, not Wales)

DCC Supplies are in Worcestershire, like me also Tier 2.

Edited December 20, 2020 by melmerby