OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Chuffer Davies]

21 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

I have removed and replaced the carrier board - no difference, motor still dead.

Replace decoder with blanking plug - works fine on DC, can't be motor.

Put decoder in ESU tester - also works fine, can't be decoder.

I'm puzzled.

What next?

Try a different chip in the loco just to see if the motor operates?

[melmerby]

Put the original decoder back in and it works as it should.

I assume the contacts on the decoder or socket were not making properly.

Never had that problem withany other DCC socket format.

 

As an aside I'd like to know what the 8pin IC on the carrier board is for.

It's number is conveniently rubbed out so it can't be identified!

 

As the motor and track terminals are clearly marked, I might make another carrier and fit another small decoder to try.

[JST]

Phew! Does it run any better now?

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, JST said:

Phew! Does it run any better now?

I'm not too sure as I haven't checked what CVs it now has. I've decided I will forgo the ultimate in slow running as It needs to run up to 70mph scale speed with maybe 6 coaches. I have a stretch of about 10m of track between any turnouts and I like to see a bit of speed along that.

If it was a Branch Line Terminus, things would be different.

 

I have some of my original settings with some that your loco was provided with.

I know I had to increase CV 56 (PWM amplitude) because a figure of 66 (6.6v) as in yours, wasn't enough to pull any decent load. 4 coaches up the incline was bit of a struggle

[Oldddudders]

I am baffled by the reports I have read on here. The Bachmann decoder for my 6364 finally arrived today, and I plugged it straight in. Concerned by tales of jack-rabbit starting, I altered no CVs, to see how it fared. On my DT602DE throttle at a setting of 5, it took 56 seconds to cover 12". Is that really so bad? 

[TheSignalEngineer]

33 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I am baffled by the reports I have read on here. The Bachmann decoder for my 6364 finally arrived today, and I plugged it straight in. Concerned by tales of jack-rabbit starting, I altered no CVs, to see how it fared. On my DT602DE throttle at a setting of 5, it took 56 seconds to cover 12". Is that really so bad? 

My 6364 was run in for about an hour on the 30 foot loop, forward and reverse, clockwise and anticlockwise using a Gaugemaster D. There was a bit of clicking from the crosshead on one curve which I tracked down to the motion bracket being out of true, can easily happen getting it in or out of the package but just as easily fixed.

I put it on my freshly cleaned straight test track after checking the wheels and pickups were clean and got it down to a similar speed to you using a trainset controller. 

The only problem I have is the pony truck occasionally derailing on the straight side of the first set of points on the main line after leaving one end of the fiddle yard. Investigation to follow when I have cleared out all of the junk stacked in front of the layout over Christmas.

[JST]

3 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My 6364 was run in for about an hour on the 30 foot loop, forward and reverse, clockwise and anticlockwise using a Gaugemaster D. There was a bit of clicking from the crosshead on one curve which I tracked down to the motion bracket being out of true, can easily happen getting it in or out of the package but just as easily fixed.

I put it on my freshly cleaned straight test track after checking the wheels and pickups were clean and got it down to a similar speed to you using a trainset controller. 

The only problem I have is the pony truck occasionally derailing on the straight side of the first set of points on the main line after leaving one end of the fiddle yard. Investigation to follow when I have cleared out all of the junk stacked in front of the layout over Christmas.

 

I had the same issue. Turned out to be the back to back on the pony truck was out. Easy fix.

[MatthewCarty]

Has anyone on here fitted a mogul with sound and/or can anyone comment on different sound projects available? I am considering my first 'try' with sound and want to do this with the mogul. I have not purchased one yet as I'm still trying to decide if there are advantages to fitting the sound myself rather than buying with sound fitted. I volunteer on a preserved line on the footplate so am likely to be more critical than most on the results so want give it the best shot of impressing me! Can anyone help with any advice for this first attempt?!

[Harlequin]

19 minutes ago, MatthewCarty said:

Has anyone on here fitted a mogul with sound and/or can anyone comment on different sound projects available? I am considering my first 'try' with sound and want to do this with the mogul. I have not purchased one yet as I'm still trying to decide if there are advantages to fitting the sound myself rather than buying with sound fitted. I volunteer on a preserved line on the footplate so am likely to be more critical than most on the results so want give it the best shot of impressing me! Can anyone help with any advice for this first attempt?!

Sound fitting this model is very easy. Fitting it yourself allows you to combine the decoder brand, speakers, and sound project exactly how you prefer. (Speakers plural, note.) There are just two wires to solder in the tender and you have to be careful to seal the sugarcube speaker in the smokebox to prevent buzzing.

 

(I did my own sound installation and went a bit further than the basic setup by cutting a hole in the tender coal space to improve the sound. There's a post here: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129125-oo-gauge-gwr-mogul-and-prairie/&do=findComment&comment=4201823

 

In my opinion the chuff sound of the YouChoos Mogul project is unconvincing. The MrSoundGuy chuff sound seems to be better to me but I'm only judging that from his YouTube videos at the moment. (I think the MrSoundGuy project is what Dapol supply for factory fitted sound in a Zimo decoder.)

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Harlequin

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

In my opinion the chuff sound of the YouChoos Mogul project is unconvincing.

 

IMHO all sound fitted steam locos are unconvincing and diesels not much better. There is no bass!

The hiss type sounds and suchlike are OK, but little speakers mean no proper bass.

I can remember standing on the platform at Snow Hill next to GWR 4 cylinder locos making a brisk start towards Paddington and you can feel the sound as well as hear it. Sound fitted 4mm doesn't do that.

Edited January 11, 2021 by melmerby

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

IMHO all sound fitted steam locos are unconvincing and diesels not much better. There is no bass!

The hiss type sounds and suchlike are OK, but little speakers mean no proper bass.

I can remember standing on the platform at Snow Hill next to GWR 4 cylinder locos making a brisk start towards Paddington and you can feel the sound as well as hear it. Sound fitted 4mm doesn't do that.

I meant unconvincing in comparison to other similar steam sounds, for instance YouChoos’ Prairie project.

When I was assessing the YouChoos Mogul sound I tried connecting a much larger Visaton speaker, which has a much better frequency range, to be sure the speaker wasn’t affecting the chuff sound. But it sounded just the same.

 

You’re right that bass is lacking from the small speakers (and I do wonder if low frequencies might have been filtered out of some sound projects). I think it’s just a question of making the best of it until someone comes up with a clever idea. Such as using the whole tender body as a sealed sound-box or implementing Psycho-Acoustics in a DCC decoder...

Edited January 11, 2021 by Harlequin

[JST]

I agree that sound in 4mm can never be totally convincing............. to us. However, try telling that to the non railway modeller friends and family who love to visit my layout. They are just blown away by the sound! It seems the factory fitted Mogul sound is as good as it gets.

BTW, I have a two year old granddaughter who plays with her Brio railway and makes “choo choo” noises. She has never seen a steam  engine....... perhaps it is in the genes! 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

You’re right that bass is lacking from the small speakers (and I do wonder if low frequencies might have been filtered out of some sound projects). I think it’s just a question of making the best of it until someone comes up with a clever idea. Such as using the whole tender body as a sealed sound-box or implementing Psycho-Acoustics in a DCC decoder...

4D sound? https://www.freiwald.com/pages/sound.htm

Comes from 4 large speakers situated at each corner of the layout (not sure what you do if it's not rectangular) and the volume in each is adjusted so it appears to follow the train around the layout. (It needs to know the train positions, so computer control is essential, it's an add-on to TrainController)

Never heard it and don't know how good it is, especially with the max 3 trains running all over the place!

 

No doubt there are other ways of managing such a system.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

I make chuff chuff, tss tss (vacuum pump) and similar noises in my head and sometimes for real; helps monitor speed (that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it) 4 chuffs per driving wheel revolution, being a DC Luddite.  I am unimpressed with DCC sound that I’ve heard at shows, particularly for steam; feeble little tinny bursts of white noise don't cut it for me, though some diesel efforts aren’t bad.  Phil Bullock’s videos of his layout are pretty convincing sound-wise.  
 

The problem is the inevitably limited frequency response of the tiny speakers; no bass and not much treble either.  The answer, IMHO and I predict that nobody is going to listen to me on this but I’m right, I’m sure I am, is stereo headphones, decent quality ones with sub 20hz-20+khz response, ‘over ear’ as opposed to in ear ‘buds’, preferably bluetooth wireless.  Plenty bass, decent quality treble, and you can have it as loud as you like without disturbing the rest of the family.  Sorry, but for steam anything else is a silly and expensive gimmick in my view, and I prefer my imagination, and chuff chuffs under my breath. 
 

I am considering the use of old stereo speakers behind the backscene for ambient background fx; birdsong, sheep, babbling brook, rain, the distant clanking of the colliery overhead cableway spoil buckets and the like.  Signal box noises and the clank of signals are another field of possible experiment, and could be  very atmospheric if they could be linked to the operation of the signals, with a second or so delay because sound only travels at 640mph, so 4mm scale sound travels at 8.42mph...

[tomparryharry]

Sound, especially railway sound, has always 'interested' me. Although the regulated sound of a locomotive is reasonably easy to replicate, how do you replicate the spontaneity of the human element?  Slamming of carriage doors,  enquiries,...  More important, the Anglo-Saxon vernacular that makes it real. Then, there's accents...  Anywhere from BBC English to real 'Urzlem-Burzlem'  Cardiff to Merthyr is 24 miles, with 3 accent variations en route. if you go via the Rhymney valley, add another....  

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Sound, especially railway sound, has always 'interested' me. Although the regulated sound of a locomotive is reasonably easy to replicate, how do you replicate the spontaneity of the human element?  Slamming of carriage doors,  enquiries,...  More important, the Anglo-Saxon vernacular that makes it real. Then, there's accents...  Anywhere from BBC English to real 'Urzlem-Burzlem'  Cardiff to Merthyr is 24 miles, with 3 accent variations en route. if you go via the Rhymney valley, add another....  

How? Get yourself a programmer and create your own sound projects!

 

Ok, so I'm semi-joking but it could be done.

 

Re. spontaneity: Obviously you, the operator, can be humanly spontaneous with loco sounds. You can slam the doors (many projects have door slam samples), toot the whistle in a characteristic way, open the injectors when you feel it's right, etc. Also remember that all sound projects are setup to make random noises as appropriate and just for fun I recently set up my Large Prairie (sorry not Dapol, the Hornby one) to toot it's own whistle at long random intervals.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Harlequin

[JST]

8 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

Sound, especially railway sound, has always 'interested' me. Although the regulated sound of a locomotive is reasonably easy to replicate, how do you replicate the spontaneity of the human element?  Slamming of carriage doors,  enquiries,...  More important, the Anglo-Saxon vernacular that makes it real. Then, there's accents...  Anywhere from BBC English to real 'Urzlem-Burzlem'  Cardiff to Merthyr is 24 miles, with 3 accent variations en route. if you go via the Rhymney valley, add another....  

 I have a class 03 shunter with sound and two of the sound effects are the crew's voice.... ever so posh!  An upper class shunter!

Coming back to the Mogul sound, whereas the sound will never be totally convincing, I guess no 4mm model will ever be totally convincing unless you have all the "real" elements e.g. steam coming out of various orifices, crew moving, water dripping etc. So I have decided that sound is just a miniature representation of the real thing. If a 4mm loco did produce the bass sound of the full size loco it would be a bit scary........ a bit like my small cats suddenly roaring like lions. 

[No Decorum]

1 minute ago, JST said:

 I have a class 03 shunter with sound and two of the sound effects are the crew's voice.... ever so posh!  An upper class shunter!

Coming back to the Mogul sound, whereas the sound will never be totally convincing, I guess no 4mm model will ever be totally convincing unless you have all the "real" elements e.g. steam coming out of various orifices, crew moving, water dripping etc. So I have decided that sound is just a miniature representation of the real thing. If a 4mm loco did produce the bass sound of the full size loco it would be a bit scary........ a bit like my small cats suddenly roaring like lions. 

I think you have the essence of it there. I could go on adding things such as painted whistles and GWR copper-capped chimneys, unrealistically thick representations of metal sheet, tight curves and (of course) couplings and gauge. Just like the appearance of models themselves, sound is a representation. Both sound and digital control have progressed mightily since I first began to tinker with it. I love sound. It adds so much to any model. Like any models, there are good and not so good sound projects. Smoke isn’t realistic either. I like the effect but I avoid it because I don’t want it entering my lungs and the oil settling over the layout.

 

As melmerby says, you can feel the sound of a steam locomotive starting. Likewise, a diesel can reverberate in the lungs. You can smell a steam locomotive and feel its heat on your cheeks. You can feel through your feet when one thumps across a rail joint or points. I have stood on a platform in front of Duke of Gloucester when the steam cocks opened. The entire world (including my feet) disappeared in a white fog. We can’t have any of that but I don’t think that’s a reason not to have the best which is on offer.

[MattA]

One thing that's always bothered me about DCC sound in steam locomotives are the amount of engines that have blatantly incorrect numbers of chuffs per revolution.

[JST]

1 minute ago, MattA said:

One thing that's always bothered me about DCC sound in steam locomotives are the amount of engines that have blatantly incorrect numbers of chuffs per revolution.

 

That is true. Hornby TTS decoders are like that but the more expensive sound decoders are "tune-able" to get the chuff rate right. Not everyone bothers though.

[No Decorum]

2 minutes ago, JST said:

 

That is true. Hornby TTS decoders are like that but the more expensive sound decoders are "tune-able" to get the chuff rate right. Not everyone bothers though.

I got a “full fat” Cock o’ the North for the improved lining and tender pickups. It came with a TTS decoder which I discarded and replaced. The replacement was a decoder for an A4, retuned to suit the 6' 2" wheels. What annoys me about the replacement is that the sound of slipping is included. First, whilst A4s slipped, P2s hardly ever did and second, the sound of slipping whilst the wheels are obviously not slipping is absurd. Very careful handling is needed to avoid it. A re-blow might be a good idea.

[Harlequin]

33 minutes ago, MattA said:

One thing that's always bothered me about DCC sound in steam locomotives are the amount of engines that have blatantly incorrect numbers of chuffs per revolution.

I spend a lot of time "chuff syncing" as part of every sound installation I do. With some decoders it can be very tedious but when it finally comes into sync I always feel the realism steps up a notch as I watch the loco move.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Harlequin

[Gopher]

14 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I meant unconvincing in comparison to other similar steam sounds, for instance YouChoos’ Prairie project.

When I was assessing the YouChoos Mogul sound I tried connecting a much larger Visaton speaker, which has a much better frequency range, to be sure the speaker wasn’t affecting the chuff sound. But it sounded just the same.

 

You’re right that bass is lacking from the small speakers (and I do wonder if low frequencies might have been filtered out of some sound projects). I think it’s just a question of making the best of it until someone comes up with a clever idea. Such as using the whole tender body as a sealed sound-box or implementing Psycho-Acoustics in a DCC decoder...

I have the Youchoos Mogul sound project in my model.  Not one of their best in my opinion.  I am considering getting it re-blown.  Some of their other steam sound projects are very good.  I believe Youchoos will tailor the sounds to your taste, by mixing and matching their sound files.  Problem is until I hear the project in the flesh - I don't know what I want.         

 

I agree that some off the shelf steam sounds are very tinny and miss the bass.  This can be improved with good speakers - but if the project lacks the frequency range there is little you can do. 

 

My own favourite steam projects installed in my own locos - include Locoman 8F,  Digitrains Castle pro drive,  Youchoos Manor (installed in a 47xx), and Super D,   Jamie Goodman Hall,  Wheeltappers Britannia, Robinson 04,  and 9F.  The Locoman King is very good.  All these projects benefited from speaker upgrades to enhance the bass.  I also have a Bachmann Jinty with pre-installed sound.  It is actually quite good but could do with a bigger speaker, so hopefully the sound fitted 94xx will also be good. 

 

Based on the videos I have seen the Mr Soundguy Mogul sound project pre-installed in the sound fitted versions sounds good.  I always bear in mind that sound videos available on various websites rarely do the sound projects justice.  I have recorded my own locos - and they never sound as good as in the flesh.  

 

When it comes to diesels - Paul Chetter's Class 24 sound pre-installed in the Sutton loco works model is simply superb - helped by some excellent speakers .  I also love Biff's Class 37 sounds.   

 

Of course all very subjective.    I love DCC  sound and it has come on leaps and bounds in the last 10 years. 

 

 

[boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I think it’s just a question of making the best of it until someone comes up with a clever idea. Such as using the whole tender body as a sealed sound-box or implementing Psycho-Acoustics in a DCC decoder...

Been there done (almost) that.....albeit on my 7mm Heljan Class 37......I made a huge sound box/speaker cavity within the fuel tanks and up into the body, all sealed nicely with a 1.75” mega bass (rubber suspended) speaker, fantastic bass for a model even my Uncle who was a driver for 50 years said it sounded good, and that was back when there were only Loksound V3.5 available, with Howes sound.......unfortunately I no longer model 7mm and the poor thing languishes in the cupboard for now.

 

I have yet to try one of the much lauded bass speakers people fit into diesels after milling away chassis structure, but there certainly is no getting away from the science theory and practice of sound.

[boxbrownie]

58 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I spend a lot of time "chuff syncing" as part of every sound installation I do. With some decoders it can be very tedious but when it finally comes into sync I always feel the realism steps up a notch as I watch the loco move.

 

Definitely this.......just a shame there is no sync adjustment in the Hornby TTS steam, as once a much better speaker is fitted the sound is really very good, it’s just lacking the synchronisation finesse.