OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Hal Nail]

17 hours ago, gwrrob said:

 

Further research on 5320 in RCTS part 9 finds she never received outside steam pipes or a smoke box number as she was withdrawn in 9/48. I’m happier in pre-ordering now.

But the point being made was the Dapol video specifically shows the CAD for this loco  having a smokebox plate. So you are taking a gamble on them correcting this if you pre-order (albeit not the hardest job to correct).

Edited March 15, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Harlequin]

Researching the 1930's ones that I might be interested in:

 

4321: Lined with Great Crest Western: Built 6/13, Steam pipes 2/33, Withdrawn 9/37 (Wheels and motion used for Grange/Manor)

5350: Unlined Great Western: Built 7/18, front buffer beam weight added 1/28, removed 8/44 (during which time she was numbered 8350), Steam pipes 12/45, Withdrawn 12/59

4377: Shirt button: Built 12/15, Steam pipes 9/45, Withdrawn 1/59

 

4321 would not still be in that livery in the 30's, I'm 99% sure.

 

5350 must not have outside steam pipes and would have to be renumbered to one without the bufferbeam weight, in the same or similar Lot, without outside steam pipes. Say, 5349 or 5371?

 

4377 would work as long as the model doesn't have steam pipes (or they can be removed). Shame about the roundel, though.

 

Just thinking aloud.

[1466]

On 13/03/2021 at 17:56, The Fatadder said:

I wonder if they will make the upgraded parts available as spares to upgrade the original mistakes.  
 

im tempted but think I will hold fire for the Collett cab version that I really want. Unless I find an unmissable bargain on the current one...

I am torn between feeling glad that Dapol listened and learned  ( about gearing) and feeling miffed that my original version is unsuitably geared . I am not going as far as to return it , but appeal to Dapol to make the appropriate spares available . I’m content to pay and fit the replacements myself .

[Hal Nail]

24 minutes ago, 1466 said:

I’m content to pay and fit the replacements myself .

Several people seem to be assuming it will be a simple drop in but is that very likely?

To engage with different size gears, surely something, somewhere is going to be in a different place?

[Harlequin]

18 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Several people seem to be assuming it will be a simple drop in but is that very likely?

To engage with different size gears, surely something, somewhere is going to be in a different place?

Yes, most likely you'd need to replace the entire chassis - and that would require that the fixing points to the body are identical between revisions and that the current body has the necessary clearance to fit onto the new chassis, which may or may not be the case.

Expensive but it would upgrade the gear ratio, the motion and the firebox in one go if it works.

 

[1466]

I am not an engineer  and have not stripped my chassis down . However , I seem to recall that there is an idler gear in the gear train . I was hoping that the chassis and engine mounts would be common and the idler gear would be adjusted . Hopefully Chuffer Davies who  first analysed the gear ratio will comment ?

 

 

[Pteremy]

The spare parts list includes a 'gear set' - 2 gears that connect the worm on the motor shaft and the gear on the lead driving wheel. There is also a gear box cover which (?) might have to be amended in the dimensions of the gears changed.

[gwrrob]

7 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

But the point being made was the Dapol video specifically shows the CAD for this loco  having a smokebox plate. So you are taking a gamble on them correcting this if you pre-order (albeit not the hardest job to correct).

 

The easiest option here is too wait and see what turns up next year before parting with any folding.

[Chuffer Davies]

4 hours ago, 1466 said:

I am not an engineer  and have not stripped my chassis down . However , I seem to recall that there is an idler gear in the gear train . I was hoping that the chassis and engine mounts would be common and the idler gear would be adjusted . Hopefully Chuffer Davies who  first analysed the gear ratio will comment ?

 

 

I’m not sure I would categorise myself as an engineer, I trained as a metalwork teacher and then re-trained after 3 years as a computer programmer remaining in IT until I retired. However:  

 

As you asked me to comment I’ve just stripped out the motor from my redundant chassis and I am able to confirm that there is an idler gear between the pinion gear  (turned by the worm) and the final drive gear and I can further confirm that it takes approx 1 1/4 turns of the pinion for 1 turn of the wheel.   I’ve not worked out how to dismantle the gear tower, I’m suspicious that the gear housing is an integral casting with the main chassis.  It looks like the axle for  the pinion gear is glued or splined into the housing so it isn’t going to be easy to swap this gear out, and if you did it would mean having to change the worm to match the new pinion.  
 

My expectation is that Dapol will have minimised the number of changes required for the improvements.  Amending the moulds for a new gear housing would be a very expensive exercise but amending the worm and pinion ratio would be a minor expense and so my expectation is that is what they plan to do.

 

Even if it was possible to reverse engineer the changes on to the original chassis without damaging the incredibly thin wires, it would still require a capable engineer with the appropriate tools to pull the original worm off the motor shaft and punch out the axle to release the pinion gear.  All things considered I think it’s inevitable that the only practical way to upgrade will be to buy a complete replacement chassis.

 

Regards,

Frank

[NCB]

I suspect the easiest thing to do if you're not satisfied with the model you've bought is to part exchange it for one which does satisfy you.

 

Nigel

[1466]

1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

I’m not sure I would categorise myself as an engineer, I trained as a metalwork teacher and then re-trained after 3 years as a computer programmer remaining in IT until I retired. However:  

 

As you asked me to comment I’ve just stripped out the motor from my redundant chassis and I am able to confirm that there is an idler gear between the pinion gear  (turned by the worm) and the final drive gear and I can further confirm that it takes approx 1 1/4 turns of the pinion for 1 turn of the wheel.   I’ve not worked out how to dismantle the gear tower, I’m suspicious that the gear housing is an integral casting with the main chassis.  It looks like the axle for  the pinion gear is glued or splined into the housing so it isn’t going to be easy to swap this gear out, and if you did it would mean having to change the worm to match the new pinion.  
 

My expectation is that Dapol will have minimised the number of changes required for the improvements.  Amending the moulds for a new gear housing would be a very expensive exercise but amending the worm and pinion ratio would be a minor expense and so my expectation is that is what they plan to do.

 

Even if it was possible to reverse engineer the changes on to the original chassis without damaging the incredibly thin wires, it would still require a capable engineer with the appropriate tools to pull the original worm off the motor shaft and punch out the axle to release the pinion gear.  All things considered I think it’s inevitable that the only practical way to upgrade will be to buy a complete replacement chassis.

 

Regards,

Frank

Thanks Frank . That’s very helpful... and may be expensive.

Regards

Ken 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

 

 

As you asked me to comment I’ve just stripped out the motor from my redundant chassis and I am able to confirm that there is an idler gear between the pinion gear  (turned by the worm) and the final drive gear.
 

Regards,

Frank

Hi Frank

Can you confirm it is an idler gear between the worm & final drive gear and not the second stage of a two stage gear arrangement?

i.e. Has the idler just one set of teeth or two different sets, side by side?

 

Like this:

https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/product-page/roadrunner

or this:

Edited March 15, 2021 by melmerby

[Miss Prism]

[Chuffer Davies]

Hi Keith,

Out with the screw drivers again and here is the result so you can see for yourselves:

From the top:

You can see that the pinion for the worm is paired with a 2nd gear that transfer drive to the idler gear below.
From below:

The idler gear is definitely not paired with another and is therefore just a transfer gear directly to the final drive gear.

 

Regards,

Frank

[Robert John Davis]

Very disappointing to see the the #43xx ROD version in khaki rather than black. Among the WWI crowd it's pretty much accepted that "if" any ROD locomotive was ever painted khaki that it didn't last long before being painted black or very dark grey. 

 

Perhaps if enough folks express interest we can get Dapol to use a proven ROD paint scheme? 

 

Rob

[MatthewCarty]

16 minutes ago, Robert John Davis said:

Very disappointing to see the the #43xx ROD version in khaki rather than black. Among the WWI crowd it's pretty much accepted that "if" any ROD locomotive was ever painted khaki that it didn't last long before being painted black or very dark grey. 

 

Perhaps if enough folks express interest we can get Dapol to use a proven ROD paint scheme? 

 

Rob

Problem with your argument is this is prototypical for preservation. Plus it’s a different colour which makes it stand out from all the other black/green ones. I don’t think you’ll convince Dapol to change this, best chance is to hope this one sells well then ask for another in grey/black.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Keith,

Out with the screw drivers again and here is the result so you can see for yourselves:

From the top:

 

 

The idler gear is definitely not paired with another and is therefore just a transfer gear directly to the final drive gear.

 

Regards,

Frank

Many thanks for dismantling it again.

It does shows that there are two reduction stages.

After the intial worm to pinion ratio, Dapol have chosen to use a second smaller gear co-axially connected to the worm driven pinion and an idler to connect to the axle gear.

 

It might have been possible for Dapol to re-gear it without a re-tool of the chassis block.

 

 

 

 

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Robert John Davis said:

Very disappointing to see the the #43xx ROD version in khaki rather than black. Among the WWI crowd it's pretty much accepted that "if" any ROD locomotive was ever painted khaki that it didn't last long before being painted black or very dark grey.

 

I've often wondered about this. I can't recall seeing a pic of a WWI Mogul in ROD livery. Didcot has turned 5322 out in two ROD versions, one in what I call 'desert sand' and a later version in black. Great Western Way says 'a sandy shade of khaki' was adopted in 1915 as a general colour for locos, with black frames, and possibly black bufferbeams. There is no photographic evidence of such a livery to my knowledge, and the number of locos so treated was in anycase small. There is no linkage between this paint scheme and the one used for the ROD locos, which is possibly where the confusion originates. I find it difficult to believe this Dean Goods is in desert sand livery:

 

[Harlequin]

On page 132 of David Maidment’s book, Great Western Moguls & Prairies, there is a photo of 5322 in ROD livery at St Omer, France, 1918.

 

The ROD marking of the tender is very clear but, as usual with old B&W photos, it’s impossible to assess what colour it might be - black, grey, khaki, could be any of them.

 

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I've often wondered about this. I can't recall seeing a pic of a WWI Mogul in ROD livery. Didcot has turned 5322 out in two ROD versions, one in what I call 'desert sand' and a later version in black. Great Western Way says 'a sandy shade of khaki' was adopted in 1915 as a general colour for locos, with black frames, and possibly black bufferbeams. There is no photographic evidence of such a livery to my knowledge, and the number of locos so treated was in anycase small. There is no linkage between this paint scheme and the one used for the ROD locos, which is possibly where the confusion originates. I find it difficult to believe this Dean Goods is in desert sand livery:

 

RCTS quotes that, when new in 1916, Nos. 4300, 4381-4399 were painted in "Wartime Livery"*. This was believed to be khaki for 4381-89 and unlined green for the others.

(It does not say for War Service)

 

5319-26/8-30 were called up for war service during WW1 .

5322 went to France Sept '17 with  5319 and 5328, they were still in green, but were painted black at Audruicq on arrival.

 

*N.B.  in 1916 when new.

Edited March 16, 2021 by melmerby
added detail & TYPO

[Steamport Southport]

I thought it was that locomotives were originally painted Black before leaving, but were repainted later as they were getting attacked by German bombers. Or Turks if they were in the East.

 

By 1917 Germany had proper bombers that could easily target supply lines. They were even getting to London by the end of the war and railways were their prime target.

 

Quote

Rfa 501 attacked by itself again on 16 February, four aircraft reached England, one carrying a 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bomb which, aimed at Victoria station, fell half a mile away on the Royal Hospital, Chelsea.[82] An aircraft attacked the following night, hitting St. Pancras station; 21 people were killed and 32 injured.[83] Another Giant raid took place on 7 March: five aircraft reached England, one carrying another 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bomb, which fell on Warrington Crescent near Paddington station: among the dead was Lena Ford, who had written the lyrics of the popular wartime song Keep the Home Fires Burning.[84]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_strategic_bombing_during_World_War_I

 

 

Jason

 

 

[john dew]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

5319-26/8-30 were called up for war service during WW2 .

5322 went to France Sept 17 with  5319 and 5328, they were still in green, but were painted black at Audruicq on arrival.

I think it was WWI not WW2?

[Pteremy]

14 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

I’ve not worked out how to dismantle the gear tower, I’m suspicious that the gear housing is an integral casting with the main chassis.  It looks like the axle for  the pinion gear is glued or splined into the housing so it isn’t going to be easy to swap this gear out

 

Curious that they offer the gears as spares then - suggests that it should be straightforward (even if not easy) to replace them. 

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, Pteremy said:

 

Curious that they offer the gears as spares then - suggests that it should be straightforward (even if not easy) to replace them. 

Yes good point.  I’ve looked again and the gear box casing is definitely integral with the rest of the chassis so the gears can only be released by pushing out their axles.  I’ve tried pushing them out with a blunt instrument but they aren’t budging so I’m pretty sure they’ll need a bit more persuasion to release them.  Perhaps Dapol will provide guidance when supplying spare gears but I don’t want to risk damaging my chassis because someone else might find it useful in years to come.

Frank

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, john dew said:

I think it was WWI not WW2?

Thanks. My typo

I did say Sept 17 though!

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by melmerby