OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Opelsi]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Thank you Jack.

 

I try to get things as right as I reasonably can within my limited abilities, but I've never been called a rivet counter before; I've decided to take it as a compliment, albeit unjustified, to my erudition and modelling prowess... I don't really think that 'rivet counter' is a term that can be applied to someone whose layout features, amongst other offences against finescalery, a Hornby 2721 (worked up to get rid of the upside down flowerpot chimney and the rather wierd safety valve cover, with a Bachmann chassis that does not match the splashers and has the wrong type of coupling rods) and a couple of K's A31 auto trailers, the last word in crude and blobby detail.  And I use setrack curves in the fiddle yard, and have tension lock couplers on my stock!

 

I will accept all sorts of 'layout model/3 foot rule' incorrectness up to a point, beyond which I am uncomfortable, but would not criticise anyone whose 'point of discomfort' is different to mine.  I don't have any Hornby 16ton minerals for example because they are on an incorrect chassis with the wrong wheelbase, so I buy Bachmanns, which are correct, or Parkside kits. 

 

Opelsi asked a question which I answered as best I could in the spirit of advice regarding what conversions were or weren't possible by what I would consider normal modelling standards.  A finescale scratch builder is probably not going to be buying RTR locos anyway; seemed likely to me that Opelski just wanted to know what was invovled in using the RTR Dapol mogul to represent his particular desired prototypes. 

 

The appearance of a GW mogul with a Collett cab is very obvious from much more than normal viewing distance even at a glance, the general proportions of the loco looking very different from the Churchward cab version.  Would you consider that a Castle cab would be acceptable on a Star?  I would agree that some of the other differences, such as the ballast weight behind the front buffer beam, are less instanteously obvious and have to be looked for.

 

Yes - I really appreciated you taking the time and effort to reply with an informative answer.

Thank you.

[Pteremy]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

I've just checked the Dapol mogul's current cab against a Mainline mogul cab,

Dapol have not done a Collett cab version yet. 

[melmerby]

55 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

Dapol have not done a Collett cab version yet. 

Yes I already know that.

I was showing how the various model's dimension tally (or not.)

 

The Mainline Mogul (Churchward) & Manor (Collett) cabs are both 32.5mm wide, the sidesheet height above running plate is also the same at 28.5mm, the front to back is 20mm on the Mogul and only 18mm on the Manor. The dimensions around the firebox are also virtually the same and close to the Dapol Mogul.

 

As the Mainline Mogul is close to the Dapol Mogul dimension wise around the cab, a Mainline Manor cab should fit, with a bit of cut 'n shut and fettling.

 

Surprisingly the front to back dimension is less on a Collett Hall or Manor cab, than the Churchward Mogul cab. a Collett 2251 is more but it is also a narrower cab.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by melmerby

[Fredo]

Hi, since Dapol is now making a model of 5322 but in WW1 condition, is there any reason I can not renumber their model of 5330 in BR Green with a late crest to 5322 to represent it the late 1950’s. Thanks Fred 

[The Johnster]

Assuming you have photographic evidence that a) 5322 carried that livery at the late 1950s and b) that the loco was in the same visual condition as 5330 at that time, there is no reason at all why you shouldn't renumber a 5330 model to 5322.  There may be minor detail differences though, especially with such as chimneys and tall or short safety valve covers, because boilers tended to get swapped about during major overhauls.  The reason for this is that it takes longer to overhaul and test a boiler than it does to overhaul the rest of the locomotive, so once the loco is ready, the next available suitable boiler (standard no.4 in this case) is fitted and the loco sent back into service.  This is preferable to having in blocking a bay in the erecting shop waiting for the original boiler, preventing that bay being used for another loco and keeping the loco out of revenue traffic.

 

The answer is to try to view and study as many photographs of 5322 and 5330 in the late 50s as you can. This is sometimes easier said than done, especially for particular locomotives  at particular times, and my advice should this prove to be the case is to go ahead and do it anyway, but be happy to correct any error that comes to light at a later date.  For example, on my 1950s South Wales layout, I wanted a Tondu allocated 57xx without a top feed boiler, and having removed the top feed and associated plumbing from a Bachmann 57xx, took a punt on 5707.  I have since found out from photographic evidence that 5707 had a top feed boiler in 1955 but that 5797 didn't, and moreover that 5797 had an unusually positioned top front lamp bracket, fitted to the top of the door rather than the top of the smokebox.  This has enabled me to renumber the loco correctly; the 5707 plates may yet find their way on to another 57xx one day.

[Miss Prism]

5 hours ago, Fredo said:

Hi, since Dapol is now making a model of 5322 but in WW1 condition

 

Dapol cannot do that. Dapol is doing 5322 in 2007 condition a la GWS. There is a difference.

[DCB]

Finally bit the bullet and acquired a Dapol Mogul 7310 Lined Green. It ran beautiully for 6 feet then derailed on plain track and fell on its side.  Fortunately the pomy truck wheels seem to be the culprit split axle bit tight B to B and very narrow treads but Wrenn wagon wheels are a direct replacement. extended axles and all.  Apart from that it actually performed, pulled 6 coach trains right out of the box, and hasn't had to be taken apart yet, pretty impressive.  Much better than my Hornby experiences I broke the Hornby King while adding weight, likewise the WC and I almost got the Hornby T9 to stay on the track last evening, I think its taken 3 years so far, I just have to get the tender pick ups working now, 

[Miss Prism]

14 hours ago, Fredo said:

is there any reason I can not renumber their model of 5330 in BR Green with a late crest to 5322 to represent it the late 1950’s. 

 

The only picture of 5322 I know of where the lined late crest livery is discernible is with a flush-riveted tender, which Dapol does not supply. This may or may not bother you.

[Tim Hall]

On 21/03/2021 at 21:16, confused said:

OMG. Rivet counters. Thought these died out when I was 14, and wondered what RC meant when read in my first 'Railway Modeller' (Kemble & Tetbury R of TM, to be precise) , errrr....., that was in 1971, can you really tell the difference at normal viewing distance, never mind were still alive.

Cab windows (or the lack of) are quite noticeable, surely? 

If you want rivet counting, try the Hornby Terrier thread, where they have been actually counting rivets....

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tim Hall said:

Cab windows (or the lack of) are quite noticeable, surely? 

If you want rivet counting, try the Hornby Terrier thread, where they have been actually counting rivets....

I was trying to be a bit humourus, trouble with any writing there is no way to convey tone of ones voice if it was a conversation instead.

 

Anyway what I meant was minute details are not easily seen.  e.g rivets, not easily seen on pristine new models until weathered.  I can never see the the finer bits properly until I do it, and I did go to Specsavers (literally) last month 17 to be precise, for anyone asks, ha ha.  And some bits are so fine that they break off just unpacking, like the the water trough handles on my Hornby King tender, lamp irons etc.

  

Edited April 5, 2021 by Guest
spelling

[The Johnster]

I’m in the odd position of wearing glasses for my shortsightedness but needing to take them off for reading or modelling, as things in a range of about 6” to about 3’ are much clearer without them.  I have had problems with bits falling off Hornby models in the box, and agree that some detail is a bit academic unless you are really close up. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

.......and agree that some detail is a bit academic unless you are really close up. 

Yes, you put it much better than I was originally trying to convey, anyway off to play trains now. TTFN.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Guest
to make it clearer

[DCB]

On 22/03/2021 at 14:03, melmerby said:

I wonder how different the various Collett cabs on models are.

I've just checked the Dapol mogul's current cab against a Mainline mogul cab, a Bachmann 2251 cab and a Bachmann Hall cab and they are pretty close,(I haven't checked against the Mainline or Bachmann Manors yet) I reckon you could get away withs some cut & shut if you wanted to.

The Collett cabs are all different, and have two main types, those where the angle iron at the front has the upright at the back, Castle, Hall etc often with bass beading, and those with it at the front, Grange, 38XX etc. I have no idea which the 93XX had but 9351 seems to have the Castle type with beading.   This makes a difference with the apparent length of the firebox, but both Hornby Dublo with the Castle and Triang with their Hall used the wrong, Grange type cab front.   Meanwhile in the real world I had to look really hard to see if the Dapol Mogul actually had handrails, they have to be undersize surely? and it had to have ugly great Wrenn pony truck wheels fitted to stay on the track.   Rapidly getting to the point of on stud of new RTR display cabinet locos and another of 40/60 year old locos to actually pull trains.

[melmerby]

Over the weekend I actually put the Dapol Mogul alongside the Hornby Prairie.

After all they should have the same wheels, motion, cylinders etc.

Oh dear, the Dapol's wheelset really does look outclassed, the wheel treads look over thick compared to the Hornby Prarie. The pony wheels especially so.

We all know about the crosshead/slidebar fiasco and the silly gearing.

 

It promised so much but the more I look at it the more I feel a little disappointed with the overal result

 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by melmerby
spelling

[Jack P]

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

Over the weekend I actually put the Dapol Mogul alongside the Hornby Prairie.

After all they should have the same wheels, motion, cylinders etc.

Oh dear, the Dapol's wheelset really does look outclassed, the wheel treads look over thick compared to the Hornby Prarie. The pony wheels especially so.

We all know about the crosshead/slidebar fiasco and the silly gearing.

 

It promised so much but the more I look at it the more I feel a little dissapointed with the overal result

 

I know it doesn't mitigate factory 'errors', but Brassmasters is working on a replacement set of cylinders/motion. 

 

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/dapol_43xx.htm

 

In addition to that, replacing the front Pony wheel shouldn't be too difficult. 

 

[The Johnster]

I am in general suspicious of Dapol and do not regard them as a safe pair of hands; it seems I am justified in this approach!  OTOH they are innovative, competitive in terms of price, and not afraid to tackle the big players, which I admire.  It's just that I've yet to buy a Dapol product that hasn't given me problems in one form or another; couplings droop, wheels are awful, working signals don't after about a month, and while I am happy enough with my non-operating water tower, the operating ones self detonate...

Edited April 6, 2021 by The Johnster

[DCB]

15 hours ago, melmerby said:

Over the weekend I actually put the Dapol Mogul alongside the Hornby Prairie.

After all they should have the same wheels, motion, cylinders etc.

Oh dear, the Dapol's wheelset really does look outclassed, the wheel treads look over thick compared to the Hornby Prarie. The pony wheels especially so.

We all know about the crosshead/slidebar fiasco and the silly gearing.

 

It promised so much but the more I look at it the more I feel a little disappointed with the overal result

Ah ha.  Hornby Prairie pony wheels.  I shall steal a set from a Hornby Prairie and see if that a) helps it stay on the track and b) looks better than Wrenn Wagon wheels currently fitted.  I guess 7310 has the revised gearing. If not what are people moaning about.  It needs to cruise at a scale 60 like the real thing, and a bit more downhill on a passenger.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Jack P said:

replacing the front Pony wheel shouldn't be too difficult.

 

24 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Hornby Prairie pony wheels.  I shall steal a set from a Hornby Prairie and see if that a) helps it stay on the track

My experiences led me to the conclusion that the problem is the cam pivot not self-centring properly, not the wheels. As mine derails only (but always) in one place, where nothing else has a problem, I have banned it from that section of track. Everywhere else it is fine.

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Ah ha.  Hornby Prairie pony wheels.  I shall steal a set from a Hornby Prairie and see if that a) helps it stay on the track and b) looks better than Wrenn Wagon wheels currently fitted.  I guess 7310 has the revised gearing. If not what are people moaning about.  It needs to cruise at a scale 60 like the real thing, and a bit more downhill on a passenger.

More like 120 on mine!

Way too fast. The decoder needed Vtop to be reduced to 140 to get a normal top speed of around 70.

Others have also commented on the over high top speed.

AFAIK no revised gearing models out yet.

[boxbrownie]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I am in general suspicious of Dapol and do not regard them as a safe pair of hands; it seems I am justified in this approach!  OTOH they are innovative, competitive in terms of price, and not afraid to tackle the big players, which I admire.  It's just that I've yet to buy a Dapol product that hasn't given me problems in one form or another; couplings droop, wheels are awful, working signals don't after about a month, and while I am happy enough with my non-operating water tower, the operating ones self detonate...

I had some very annoying issues with Dapol (mainly customer service after a very expensive Loco fault) I vowed never to buy another Dapol product, it might be a bit of “cut nose to spite face” but I felt very strongly about it.

 

So far I have found it very easy to ignore their products 

[David Stannard]

44 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

So far I have found it very easy to ignore their products 

 

Kind of ironic when you have made numerous comments deriding their current products, despite the fact that you haven't purchased anything made by Dapol for quite a while now.

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

Kind of ironic when you have made numerous comments deriding their current products, despite the fact that you haven't purchased anything made by Dapol for quite a while now.

It was their sound fitted GWR Railcar, and I don’t see what newer products have to do with customer service.

 

I only had the issue with one model so haven’t “derided their current products” (plural), as I said it was the total plain bad customer service.

[David Stannard]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

It was their sound fitted GWR Railcar, and I don’t see what newer products have to do with customer service.

 

I only had the issue with one model so haven’t “derided their current products” (plural), as I said it was the total plain bad customer service.

 

 I can understand your grievance when it comes to poor customer service, that said you haven't had anything positive to say throughout the course of this thread regarding the Moguls or the Prairies, I already have a 63xx and I can't wait for the 43xx to come out as well as an 81xx at some time in the future, with the later I had originally purchased a Hornby/Airfix 61xx about 20 years ago with the intention to convert it to an 81xx, given Dapols innovative approach to production with being able to build different variants of a locomotive it will save me and other modellers the hassle of such conversions.

[TerryBewdley]

Not sure if this is relevant but I acquired. A used Dapol mogul with sound and so far running is as good as any other locos I have. Regarding gearing I’m lucky mine runs at really slow speed and sound is to my ears perfect, has there been much variance in performance with these locos?

 

[boxbrownie]

20 minutes ago, David Stannard said:

 

 I can understand your grievance when it comes to poor customer service, that said you haven't had anything positive to say throughout the course of this thread regarding the Moguls or the Prairies, I already have a 63xx and I can't wait for the 43xx to come out as well as an 81xx at some time in the future, with the later I had originally purchased a Hornby/Airfix 61xx about 20 years ago with the intention to convert it to an 81xx, given Dapols innovative approach to production with being able to build different variants of a locomotive it will save me and other modellers the hassle of such conversions.

I was replying to The Johnsters post, and agreeing with his opinion..........and how could I have had anything positive to say (or negative regarding the Mogul) as I have not bought one.