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OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie


Paul.Uni
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I am a little concerned, having provisionally ordered a Dapol large prairie, about the proposed BR liveries. I wanted Plain black with the early

crest, but it seems that the only BR black liveried locos are mixed traffic lined black with British Railways lettered. No early crests on anything.

This would mean that I will have to re paint the loco to achieve what I want.

Does anyone have any comments re this, am I right or what ?

 

Rob

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I am a little concerned, having provisionally ordered a Dapol large prairie, about the proposed BR liveries. I wanted Plain black with the early

crest, but it seems that the only BR black liveried locos are mixed traffic lined black with British Railways lettered. No early crests on anything.

This would mean that I will have to re paint the loco to achieve what I want.

Does anyone have any comments re this, am I right or what ?

 

Rob

Given that the version you want is one that a lot of others will also want, it is very likely to follow quite hard on the heels of the first releases.

 

If you did repaint, it's a fair bet they'd announce exactly what you want before it's barely dry. I'd just hang back for a few months if it were me.

 

John

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Given that the version you want is one that a lot of others will also want, it is very likely to follow quite hard on the heels of the first releases.

 

If you did repaint, it's a fair bet they'd announce exactly what you want before it's barely dry. I'd just hang back for a few months if it were me.

 

John

Yes, I think you are right, I will wait..

 

Rob

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Locos painted between 1st January and 31st May 1948 would have been in unlined green livery with 'BRITIISH RAILWAYS' in GW 1920s style Egyptian Serif lettering.

 

"Nationalisation brought a few immediate changes. During the week ending 24 January 1948, ex-GWR 0-6-0 tender engine No 2323 (the second oldest such locomotive still running on Western Region) became the last to be lettered 'GWR' at Stafford Road, and 2-6-2T engine No 6126 was the first to be lettered 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in hand painted yellow letters, edged in red." (Paul Collins: Rail Centres: Wolverhampton - he gives no source or bibliography). So it looks as though GWR soldiered on three weeks into the nationalised railway.

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"Nationalisation brought a few immediate changes. During the week ending 24 January 1948, ex-GWR 0-6-0 tender engine No 2323 (the second oldest such locomotive still running on Western Region) became the last to be lettered 'GWR' at Stafford Road, and 2-6-2T engine No 6126 was the first to be lettered 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in hand painted yellow letters, edged in red." (Paul Collins: Rail Centres: Wolverhampton - he gives no source or bibliography). So it looks as though GWR soldiered on three weeks into the nationalised railway.

Of course the GWR didn’t die, it just faded a little...

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70901-re-painting-schedules-during-livery-changes/?p=2636299

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"Nationalisation brought a few immediate changes. During the week ending 24 January 1948, ex-GWR 0-6-0 tender engine No 2323 (the second oldest such locomotive still running on Western Region) became the last to be lettered 'GWR' at Stafford Road, and 2-6-2T engine No 6126 was the first to be lettered 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in hand painted yellow letters, edged in red." (Paul Collins: Rail Centres: Wolverhampton - he gives no source or bibliography). So it looks as though GWR soldiered on three weeks into the nationalised railway.

 

I've rated this 'information useful' because there isn't an 'information very useful indeed' option.  Does this just apply to Stafford Road and were Swindon and Caerphilly paint shops turning out 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' branded loco during the 3 weeks prior?  This is of particular interest as I extrapolate the probably livery of a loco in this period (not the 3 weeks, the entire 1948/9 changeover period until the unicycling lion appeared) from the date of it's entry into traffic.  

 

What is probably true is that, apart from every loco in steam blowing it's whistle (or whatever other apparatus it had) at midnight on the first of January to celebrate the arrival of the People's Glorious Revolutionary Railway, nothing much happened on Britain's railways immediately.  The first thing that would have been apparent to railwaymen would have been the change in the letterheads of official notices and other documents, and even this probably took about a week for the delivery of the new stationery.  In some places you'd be forgiven for thinking nothing had happened several years later...

 

The immediate visual change would have been in posters and advertising material, which could be implemented cheaply and simply with no more than the efforts of Mr William Stickers and his friend Bill Posters with their ladders and buckets.  The workshops' paint shops probably had no immediate instructions and asked the boss what they should do as obviously no longer belonged to the company whose name or initials and coat of arms you were painting on it.  The bosses responses probably varied a little in detail around the theme of 'carry on but put the new name on until I tell you different' or, on the LMS, 'just put an M in front of the number, we're Midland Region now'.  This period would not have lasted long, but it is possible that more precise instructions from head office took different amounts of time to be disseminated to different workshops and different paint shop managers.  

 

Much of the last paragraph, well, let's be honest all of it. is conjecture on my part and not to be taken as historically verified fact, but I reckon I'm not far off the mark!  Photographic evidence is particularly vital as a modelling resource for this fascinating period, but the country was still suffering an austerity economy and film was not always easy to obtain.

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Good points, and a reminder to stop and consider the why's of what was happening.

 

We are all so used to the modern corporate image makeover that happens, not just with takeovers but with rebranding, and forget that this all takes months of planning and reasonably large sums of money.

 

I would guess neither were available at the creations of BR given the circumstances for the creation.

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BR, newly formed, unpopular in some circles, and operating in a particularly bleak economic climate with hardly a pot to p*ss in, were very pragmatic and sensible in the way they went about things in those early days.  The early instructions, or lack of them, to carry on until further notice, and such measures as leaving open wagons and refurbished XPOs, were very reasonable in the circumstances.  

 

Riddles' new standard locos were an extension of this philosophy, simple and cheap to build, maintain, and operate.  Everything in the designs was well proven, tried, and tested.

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...Riddles' new standard locos were an extension of this philosophy, simple and cheap to build, maintain, and operate.  Everything in the designs was well proven, tried, and tested.

 Except for the components that weren't and went on to cause real trouble! Adoption of the Superheater Company's multi valve regulator which was positioned on the saturated side, and the same company's 'steam drier' collector design, in combination lead directly to the hydraulicing that banged off cylinder heads and made closing the regulator problematic on some Britannias. Discarding the fall plate wasn't a very bright idea either and subsequently had to be corrected. And then it turned out that the driving wheels weren't on tight, and could slip on the axles because they hadn't calculated what bored out wall thickness was required with the introduction of roller bearings on these locos. It's a pretty sorry story from a team that supposedly had all the necessary experience, and that wasn't the end of their troubles.

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Interesting, hoping that they do a 31xx instead, would make me more likely to purchase one too

 

Given that their CAD apparently needs reworking, that would be a sensible exercise in damage limitation if they are determined to press on

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I suppose to some extent it depends on where Dapol and Hornby are in their respective R&D processes. If Dapol believe they can reach the shelves significantly before Hornby then pressing on regardless makes sense. If Hornby are ahead then maybe looking at other variants might be sensible.

 

Either way, it makes sense for Dapol to reassure potential customers in the first instance that the model is not going "on the back burner".

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I suppose to some extent it depends on where Dapol and Hornby are in their respective R&D processes. If Dapol believe they can reach the shelves significantly before Hornby then pressing on regardless makes sense. If Hornby are ahead then maybe looking at other variants might be sensible.

 

Either way, it makes sense for Dapol to reassure potential customers in the first instance that the model is not going "on the back burner".

 

I would think that Hornby are a long way ahead and that the only thing which might have delayed the prairie was rushing to get certain other retoollings completed.  An interesting development from Dapols' viewpoint might to actually not only go for a different one such as the 31XX but to research the subject properly through drawings and photos before moving on to a CAD.   At least Hornby went and measured one to check the accuracy of certain details as they were developing theirs!

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I would think that Hornby are a long way ahead and that the only thing which might have delayed the prairie was rushing to get certain other retoollings completed.  An interesting development from Dapols' viewpoint might to actually not only go for a different one such as the 31XX but to research the subject properly through drawings and photos before moving on to a CAD.   At least Hornby went and measured one to check the accuracy of certain details as they were developing theirs!

Hornby say that their Prairie tooling suite allows for the 31XX variant also. [Collectors' club magazine, p. 6, top of third column. My copy arrived today.]

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Hornby say that their Prairie tooling suite allows for the 31XX variant also. [Collectors' club magazine, p. 6, top of third column. My copy arrived today.]

I'm guessing that is the Collett version?

If Dapol alternatively went for the Churchward variant to complement the Hornby model then I would be very interested.  These large prairie designs and numbering are an absolute minefield!

Edited by GWR8700
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Good points, and a reminder to stop and consider the why's of what was happening.

 

We are all so used to the modern corporate image makeover that happens, not just with takeovers but with rebranding, and forget that this all takes months of planning and reasonably large sums of money.

 

I would guess neither were available at the creations of BR given the circumstances for the creation.

 

Just as an aside, I have a 1951 photograph of (possibly) 6101 at Reading with G W R on the side and no number visible up front:  the number plate clips have been fitted to the smokebox door but no plat as yet.

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I suppose to some extent it depends on where Dapol and Hornby are in their respective R&D processes.

We don't know where Dapol is, but Hornby displayed EP samples to the press in mid-December (there are pictures in the Hornby area).

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I must say that the technical design of the Mogul, as shown and described on Dapol Digest, looks very impressive.

 

If the modelling is as good (and it should be if they have listened to Miss Prism) then I think we have a lot to look forward to.

 

And then hopefully the large Prairie, in whatever variant, will follow on in the same vein.

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