OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[The Johnster]

The original instruction, applied to locos painted after 1/1/48, was to continue with the previous livery whatever it was and have ‘BRITISH RAILWAYS’ on the tank or tender side in whatever style of lettering you’d been using previously and the numbers as previously as well.  On the WR this was interpreted as lined or unlined green with the lettering in pre-1934 style ‘Egyptian Serif’ lettering.  ‘Sunshine’ was used on the Southern, and the Ivatt austerity style on the LMR and ex LMS parts of the ScR.  The ER, NER, and ex LNER areas of the ScR were already using Gill Sans.  No W number prefixes were used on the WR for locos, although red painted backing to the number plates was instituted, lasting until about 1950. I am unsure of the situation on the Southern. 

 

This situation lasted until 31/5/48, by which time the new numbering system and the new liveries had been decided on.  They began to appear on any loco painted after 1/1/48.  Except on ex GW locos, the numbers were applied in Gill Sans, and the BRITISH RAILWAYS Gill Sans lettering became the standard on all regions.  

 

The next stage of the story comes on 30/8/49, when the ‘unicycling lion’ crest became available and the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering was discontinued.  

 

Smokebox door number plates seem to have appeared very soon after nationalisation , but it probably varied as they were fixed to the locos at the sheds while they were in service, mostly I imagine during boiler washouts.  The ex LMS areas positioned them as they had previously, ex LNER put them above the upper smokebox bracket, and the WR put them level with the upper bracket, obscuring the end of it.  As they were a ‘retrofit’, locos in all sorts of liveries had them, some still carrying buffer beam numbers in the previous styles; I cannot say if any buffer beam numbers were painted post 1/1/48, but there were plenty still around!

 

As you say, Jason, apart from ex LMS areas, smokebox shedcode plates appeared in 1950.  In former GW and LNER, the previous buffer beam shedcodes or names continued to be used, as did the former GW route availability disc/power letter system. This continued until the introduction of Corporate Blue livery in 1966, on diesels.  

 

It’s a fascinating period, and all sorts of apparent oddities were in evidence, on locos and passenger stock.  Austerity was still in force, and some open goods and mineral wagons were not painted at all. 

 

 

[The Johnster]

As this applies to 5101s, a photo in Eric Mountford's 'Caerphilly Works' book to illustrate the livery shows 4162 as delivered new to Barry Shed in early 1948, in unlined green with BRITISH RAILWAYS Egyptian Serif, red backed number plates, and red backes smokebox number plate.  This probably lasted on the loco until about 1955, when it would have been repainted into plain black with unicycling lions and black backed number plates, but if it lasted until the following year without an overhaul might have had lined green with unicycling lion.  The red backed number plates would very probably have been repainted black backed at the shed, some years before 1955.

[SDJR7F88]

A look at some of the latest models and prototypes from Dapol, filmed on their Roadshow Stand at the Warley National Model Railway Exhibition 2019. Highlights included painted samples of the all new GWR 'Mogul' 2-6-0's in 00,  GWR 1400 Class 0-4-2T in 0 Gauge, and the first EP the eagerly anticipated British Rail Mk1's in 0 Gauge, as well as many other exciting developments cross the range.
Hope you enjoy!

[Steamport Southport]

On 07/12/2019 at 14:58, The Johnster said:

The original instruction, applied to locos painted after 1/1/48, was to continue with the previous livery whatever it was and have ‘BRITISH RAILWAYS’ on the tank or tender side in whatever style of lettering you’d been using previously and the numbers as previously as well.  On the WR this was interpreted as lined or unlined green with the lettering in pre-1934 style ‘Egyptian Serif’ lettering.  ‘Sunshine’ was used on the Southern, and the Ivatt austerity style on the LMR and ex LMS parts of the ScR.  The ER, NER, and ex LNER areas of the ScR were already using Gill Sans.  No W number prefixes were used on the WR for locos, although red painted backing to the number plates was instituted, lasting until about 1950. I am unsure of the situation on the Southern. 

 

This situation lasted until 31/5/48, by which time the new numbering system and the new liveries had been decided on.  They began to appear on any loco painted after 1/1/48.  Except on ex GW locos, the numbers were applied in Gill Sans, and the BRITISH RAILWAYS Gill Sans lettering became the standard on all regions.  

 

The next stage of the story comes on 30/8/49, when the ‘unicycling lion’ crest became available and the BRITISH RAILWAYS lettering was discontinued.  

 

Smokebox door number plates seem to have appeared very soon after nationalisation , but it probably varied as they were fixed to the locos at the sheds while they were in service, mostly I imagine during boiler washouts.  The ex LMS areas positioned them as they had previously, ex LNER put them above the upper smokebox bracket, and the WR put them level with the upper bracket, obscuring the end of it.  As they were a ‘retrofit’, locos in all sorts of liveries had them, some still carrying buffer beam numbers in the previous styles; I cannot say if any buffer beam numbers were painted post 1/1/48, but there were plenty still around!

 

As you say, Jason, apart from ex LMS areas, smokebox shedcode plates appeared in 1950.  In former GW and LNER, the previous buffer beam shedcodes or names continued to be used, as did the former GW route availability disc/power letter system. This continued until the introduction of Corporate Blue livery in 1966, on diesels.  

 

It’s a fascinating period, and all sorts of apparent oddities were in evidence, on locos and passenger stock.  Austerity was still in force, and some open goods and mineral wagons were not painted at all. 

 

 

 

I beg to differ. There's a photograph somewhere of a Castle with a W40XX smoke box number plate.

 

 

They also had it painted on the cabside in white under the brass number.

 

Quote

The 'W' was applied between January and late March/early April 1948, and it is thought about 150 or so GWR engines received it.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

 

 

 

Jason

[88D]

Hi, has anybody been able to get close enough to these locos to See if they can be EM’ed easily? No scraping of footplate, and all that. Cheers, Dai

[The Stationmaster]

On 07/12/2019 at 14:58, The Johnster said:

 

 

As you say, Jason, apart from ex LMS areas, smokebox shedcode plates appeared in 1950.  In former GW and LNER, the previous buffer beam shedcodes or names continued to be used, as did the former GW route availability disc/power letter system. This continued until the introduction of Corporate Blue livery in 1966, on diesels.  

 

 

 

 

The (G)WR Route Availability disc system/Power Group codes continued in everyday use until introduction of the new BR Freight Train Loads system in 1968.  However passenger train (Note *) loads on the GWR/WR had long been expressed in trailing load tons listed by class (or a grouping of classes) of engine and the first GWR Passenger Train loads Book was published in January 1927.

 

Note *  : -  The original Instruction referred to passenger, fish, parcels, and empty stock trains. (milk trains and newsaper trains were counted as passenger trains).

[57xx]

That's frustrating, I've just noticed every version has the later reinforced motion bracket/boiler support, rather than the thin plate one that appears in every pic of the moguls on the Barnstaple branch.

 

[Miss Prism]

41 minutes ago, 57xx said:

That's frustrating, I've just noticed every version has the later reinforced motion bracket/boiler support, rather than the thin plate one that appears in every pic of the moguls on the Barnstaple branch.

 

7303 approaching Filleigh

(from the Lightmoor book)

 

also:

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/8945038_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/3545647_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/9377319_orig.jpg

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/7104410_orig.jpg

 

more

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Miss Prism

[7007GreatWestern]

Hi 57xx,

I'm going to agree with MissPrism here - there were plenty of moguls used on the Barnstaple branch that had the shorter, flanged radius plate. In fact they were the majority.

 

The photo you have above is from the preserved example 5322. That pattern was used on all the early Churchward moguls up to 5383. Later locomotives including the 63xx depicted in the Dapol model as well as the later 93xx/73xx  'Collett Moguls' with cab windows had the later radius plate. A few years ago I intended to model the Barnstaple branch and took a keen interest in its allocation of regular locos. My recollection is that they were mainly 63xx (many of them built by outside contractors) as well as 73xxs. The 'Collett Moguls' could not run on the Barnstaple branch during the period they were 93xx because there axle loading was higher.

 

I think I'm right in saying that the moguls based at Taunton for us on the Barnstaple branch were quite 'specialised' for that line. Some of them had tablet exchange apparatus enabling token exchanges to be accomplished at higher speed. I think they all had slightly cut-back cab footsteps because of a clearance issue along there line. For this reason the pool of locos used of the line was very stable. The 'star' loco along the line was 6372 apparently. It was immediately recognisable as it had no outside steam pipes. It was used on a rail tour on at least one occasion and was also used for royal train duty in 1956. By all accounts it was an excellent performer.

 

The above are all recollections from my increasingly hazy memory. I hope they are of interest and I'm happy to stand corrected if I've got some detail wrong.

 

 

[martinT]

21 minutes ago, 7007GreatWestern said:

I think I'm right in saying that the moguls based at Taunton for us on the Barnstaple branch were quite 'specialised' for that line. Some of them had tablet exchange apparatus enabling token exchanges to be accomplished at higher speed. I think they all had slightly cut-back cab footsteps because of a clearance issue along there line. For this reason the pool of locos used of the line was very stable.

 

The clearance issue was on the the Ilfracombe line so unmodified Moguls could be used to Barnstaple Junc. In fact all GW locos had to have their steps cut back to 8'4" to allow them to work beyond Barnstaple Junc.

Martin

[Miss Prism]

A late-crested outside-piped 7304 at Taunton. With tablet catcher, but the cab steps look usual to me. (Moguls were normally 8'6" over cab steps.)

 

 

The thing to watch for in the forthcoming Dapol offerings is whether the production batch are going to be issued with fireboxes with a high line of washout plugs.
 

[Miss Prism]

Btw, for unlined Moguls, the BR early crest was the large size. (Dapol seems to be choosing the small size.)

 

[TrevorP1]

29 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Btw, for unlined Moguls, the BR early crest was the large size. (Dapol seems to be choosing the small size.)

 

 

Trying to make my mind up about this one. The engine is definitely lined but the more I look I can't even make my mind up what colour the tender is let alone whether it is lined or not. I have several other - black and white - photos of 6301 and they all show the large crest but it is impossible to see whether it is lined or not.

 

From an original photo copyright Colourail.

 

 

[Pteremy]

I think that is a common problem. I don't know whether it means that by the late 50's/early 60's there were some combinations of lined engine/unlined tender, or whether it is just consequence of filth and lighting. Personally I think that the more significant issue is that by that time it would be possible to see three liveries, black, unlined green and lined green.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, martinT said:

 

The clearance issue was on the the Ilfracombe line so unmodified Moguls could be used to Barnstaple Junc. In fact all GW locos had to have their steps cut back to 8'4" to allow them to work beyond Barnstaple Junc.

Martin

Exactly so - however generally the Taunton engines working the Barnstaple branch would have had to be suitable to carry on beyond Barnstaple Jcn to Ilfracombe as Taunton had regular work through.

[melmerby]

I don't know whether my brain is adding it but the tender looks like it is lined!

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, TrevorP1 said:

The engine is definitely lined but the more I look I can't even make my mind up what colour the tender is let alone whether it is lined or not.

 

The large crest on the tender means the tender is unlined. Normally this would mean black body, but 6326 is thought to have been in unlined green in April 1957, so maybe 6301 has acquired its tender at a later date.

 

[TrevorP1]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I don't know whether my brain is adding it but the tender looks like it is lined!

 

35 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

The large crest on the tender means the tender is unlined. Normally this would mean black body, but 6326 is thought to have been in unlined green in April 1957, so maybe 6301 has acquired its tender at a later date.

 

 

Originally I assumed (very dangerous!) the tender was lined but it's pretty sure now I was wrong. The question is what colour, green I think,  - maybe so filthy it's almost irrelevant... Now who would have the nerve to do this to  a model? The photo is dated 21 October 1959.

[Ian Hargrave]

8 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

 

Originally I assumed (very dangerous!) the tender was lined but it's pretty sure now I was wrong. The question is what colour, green I think,  - maybe so filthy it's almost irrelevant... Now who would have the nerve to do this to  a model? The photo is dated 21 October 1959.

 
If the date is correct....assumptions always questionable......then it will almost certainly be green.From 1956 on,Swindon painted everything,apart from its new build Standard 9F’s( though 92220 was the exception to that) in green .The tender IS lined btw.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Ian Hargrave
Adding

[Marshall5]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
If the date is correct....assumptions always questionable......then it will almost certainly be green.From 1956 on,Swindon painted everything,apart from its new build Standard 9F’s( though 92220 was the exception to that) in green .The tender IS lined btw.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry Ian, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.  Swindon didn't paint everything green after 1956, all the 57xx, 28xx were still painted black for instance.

It is a common misconception among modellers that, suddenly, after 1956 the liveries changed almost overnight. Locos were only repainted after major shoppings so many locos including Moguls went for scrap in the early 60's still in pre 1956 paint.

FWIW I believe that 6301 in the above photo is actually in unlined black. What we are seeing as lining is dirt build up along the edges of the boiler bands and platework joints/angles on the tender. This is, IMO, supported by the use of the large 'cycling lion' crest. Just my 2p worth.

Ray.

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Pteremy said:

Personally I think that the more significant issue is that by that time it would be possible to see three liveries, black, unlined green and lined green.

Each with both unicycling lion and ferret/dartboard crests.

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

don't know whether my brain is adding it but the tender looks like it is lined!

Mine is probably already addled if the evidence is anything to go on, and I'm not sure the loco is lined.  It's one of those things where the harder you look the harder it is to see...

 

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

From 1956 on,Swindon painted everything,apart from its new build Standard 9F’s( though 92220 was the exception to that) in green.

Almost.  9Fs (except Evening Star), 28xx, 57xx/8750 and variants, 94xx, 16xx, 58xx, 1361/1366, 90xx, and Cardiff Rly. 1338 (the only surviving pre-grouping constituent or absorbed loco, all others were last outshopped pre-1956 in unlined black) were painted unlined black post '56.  AFAIK no loco outshopped from any WR works was painted in lined black livery post 1956.  

 

Those apart, after '56, any WR loco that might possibly even have ever been in the same vicinity as a passenger train was given lined green livery, even those which had never carried the livery under GW ownership.  An unlined 'economy' green livery was applied to some 2251, 43xx and variants, 56xx, 5101/61xx, and BR std 3MT tanks from, I think, 1959.  AFAIK only Swindon painted BR standards in lined green that had previously been in lined black; 3MT tanks, 4MT 4-6-0s, and 5MT.  

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Of course.Got carried away.Apologies.However,I stand by my observations on 6301.Many locos sported green with the cycling lion.

[martinT]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
If the date is correct....assumptions always questionable......then it will almost certainly be green.

 

 

Have a look at 6301 on Neil Dimmer's site here:

 

Outside steam-pipes, so post March 1958 (using the date given by David Andrews in his Mogul monograph), & most definitely lined green on loco & tender (with later BR crest). It was withdrawn in October 1962 so I would surmise that it gained lined green livery in March 1958 & kept it the rest of its life (altho' it would be hard to tell towards the end). Both photos shew it with an unusual length of pipework just above the handrail running to the smokebox.

 

Martin

Edited December 22, 2019 by martinT
Sentence mentioning pipework added

[Marshall5]

5 hours ago, 7007GreatWestern said:

 

 

The photo you have above is from the preserved example 5322. That pattern was used on all the early Churchward moguls up to 5383. Later locomotives including the 63xx depicted in the Dapol model as well as the later 93xx/73xx  'Collett Moguls' with cab windows had the later radius plate.

 

 

..... and that was exactly what I thought until I came across this photo that I had taken of 5399 at Ruabon in 1962.  There is absolutely no doubt that it had been built with the later radius plate and ran so (with inside steampipes) until it went into Swindon for overhaul in 1956. It emerged in 1957 with outside steampipe cylinders and the earlier type of radius plate and carried these until withdrawal in 1962 - still in black BTW.

No other Moguls, in fact no other classes AFAIK, had these plates changed and I seriously doubt that they are interchangeable. I spent some time looking for an explanation for this anomaly and the best I could come up with was:

5399's cylinders and/or frames were unfit for further use when stripped down late in 1956. 5307 and 5317 had just been withdrawn for scrapping, also at Swindon, and one of these had better frames/cylinders so a swap was carried out.  To keep the accountants happy 5399's numberplates were attached to the newly overhauled loco.  At least one other Mogul, a 63xx, had a similar identity change as did the better known Albert Hall swap.

Ray.

[7007GreatWestern]

Thanks Martin T. I think that's the lubrication feed from the GWR 'displacement' lubricator in the cab to the smokebox. It delivers lubrication to the regulator box and the steam chests. Normally the pipe is run underneath the cladding and is therefore invisible. Never seen it run externally before.

Edited December 22, 2019 by 7007GreatWestern