OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[The Johnster]

Treherbert (88F)....that wild territory where citizens of Kaydiff .....sorry,Cardiff fear to tread   had an allocation of 41XX which IIRC it used on Rhondda Valley services in the 50's until the coming of the Standard 82XXX tanks.

 

As did Cathays and Barry (and IIRC Rhymney), for passenger turns where the 56xx's smaller driving wheels used too much coal and water for the range required.  The 82xxx lasted a few years before being transferred away, but 5101 from the 41xx series were a feature of the valleys until the end of steam.  82xxx were really as much a replacement for TVR A class with 5'3" wheels as the continuation of the 5101 series at Swindon; the boiler was a domed version of the Swindon no.2, but the cylinders were smaller, resulting in a 3MT power rating instead of the GW large prairies' 4MT.

 

One might question why the Riddles standard 4MT never made an appearance in the area, but experience with 80080 in 1995 suggests that they would not have coped well with some of the banks.  Oddly, the standard tank climbed well on Abercynon, but stalled trying to climb to Penarth and again on the long climb to Caerphilly, and this with 4 on, not the Valleys standard 5 coach train.

[coachmann]

The Fowler and Stanier class 3 2-6-2T's ran 3-coach trains day-in and day out from Llandudno up the steep and winding branch to Blaenau Ffestiinog. They were considered failures in the hobby-press. Funny thing is, the LNWR class 1 2-4-2T's and 0-6-2T's also ran the services without trouble before the war with two and sometimes three coaches when an LNWR observation car was attached. In the 1990's, the Riddles BR Standard Class 4 2-6-4T's stalled on the incline to Pont-Y-Pant with 6 coaches, which is what some of us had expected and they had to work the line with only 4 coaches.  In wet weather, I doubt the passenger trains could have been entrusted to these 2-6-4T's.  Makes yer wonder.

[The Johnster]

They did very good work on the Southern, LT&S, and Glasgow suburban trains, some of which were 12 coaches, but seem to have not done well in Wales except on the Central Wales line.

[9402 Fredrick]

Most Western Region drivers are used to right-hand drive, and all of the BR Standards are lef-hand drive, so you'd expect there to be faultiness with their performance when you think about it, especially in the London Division of the region.

[The Johnster]

Perhaps it was the language problem...

 

LH drive was not much of an issue for WR drivers; they had been driving Stanier 8Fs since the war and did well enough with other BR standards, especially 4MT and 5MT 4-6-0s.  9Fs seemed grist to the mill, and the Britannias, though unpopular elsewhere, were well suited to Canton work; their drivers liked them, a very high accolade for a non Swindon engine.  Firing may have been more of an issue, but I doubt it was a deal breaker on any normal job.

[tomparryharry]

Most Western Region drivers are used to right-hand drive, and all of the BR Standards are lef-hand drive, so you'd expect there to be faultiness with their performance when you think about it, especially in the London Division of the region.

It doesn't take too long to get to grips with left-hand firing. If you've used a shovel, there is not a particular problem with the hand, just practice borne out of experience. I had to learn real quick when I got my first Terrier job.

 

Ian.

[Star-rider]

I'm pleased to see these too, despite the fact I waited a long time to get hold of a Bachmann 93XX at a sensible price, then holding out for a 43XX tender top to come up so I could back date it from the GWR livery that it only ever carried as a model (repainting is not one of my skills) and then carving up the split chassis so that I could get a dcc decoder shoe-horned in. Still it looks like a 93XX will not pop up for a year or two yet so it will still have a bit of work to do to give some reward for my labour.

 

My one request based on the running qualities of my existing 43XX and 93XX would be some decent mass in the front bogie, I find the Bachmann ones somewhat "flighty" and of all of my locomotives these were the ones that seemed to want to derail at some point-work. (Although if it is of any use to anyone, this was cured by backing off the mounting screw so that he front ran nice and loose).

 

Put me down for one of each....

[Unknown Warrior]

The Fowler and Stanier class 3 2-6-2T's ran 3-coach trains day-in and day out from Llandudno up the steep and winding branch to Blaenau Ffestiinog. They were considered failures in the hobby-press. Funny thing is, the LNWR class 1 2-4-2T's and 0-6-2T's also ran the services without trouble before the war with two and sometimes three coaches when an LNWR observation car was attached. In the 1990's, the Riddles BR Standard Class 4 2-6-4T's stalled on the incline to Pont-Y-Pant with 6 coaches, which is what some of us had expected and they had to work the line with only 4 coaches. In wet weather, I doubt the passenger trains could have been entrusted to these 2-6-4T's. Makes yer wonder.

The main thing that defeated the standard four tanks going up to Blaenau was the shap curvature before the tunnel which has/had a check rail.it was the binding on the curve with a six coach train.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Unknown Warrior

[sjrixon]

I'm pleased to see these too, despite the fact I waited a long time to get hold of a Bachmann 93XX at a sensible price, then holding out for a 43XX tender top to come up so I could back date it from the GWR livery that it only ever carried as a model (repainting is not one of my skills) and then carving up the split chassis so that I could get a dcc decoder shoe-horned in. Still it looks like a 93XX will not pop up for a year or two yet so it will still have a bit of work to do to give some reward for my labour.

 

My one request based on the running qualities of my existing 43XX and 93XX would be some decent mass in the front bogie, I find the Bachmann ones somewhat "flighty" and of all of my locomotives these were the ones that seemed to want to derail at some point-work. (Although if it is of any use to anyone, this was cured by backing off the mounting screw so that he front ran nice and loose).

 

Put me down for one of each....

Gggrrrrr those front wheels.

[brushman47544]

They did very good work on the Southern, LT&S, and Glasgow suburban trains, some of which were 12 coaches, but seem to have not done well in Wales except on the Central Wales line.

Tin hat on just in case... Perhaps they didn't like superior Welsh coal?

[coachmann]

I am left handed and so took naturally to firing ex.LMS locos.  When firing a RH drive MR 4F, I fired from the drivers side even though he thought it was funny kicking me up the backside.  Having watched those historical documentary and promotional films made by the railways, I can see I wasn't alone and that many a fireman can be seen firing from the drivers side. It is far from easy learning to fire opposite handed when you are trying to 'place' coal exactly where you want it especially on a moving loco.  The young men of my generation would take no sh*t from drivers who insisted we stay on our own side of the footplate.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...My one request based on the running qualities of my existing 43XX and 93XX would be some decent mass in the front bogie, I find the Bachmann ones somewhat "flighty" ....

 I'd not worry on that front overmuch. The old Bachmann pony truck design on split chassis models was not very refined at all, but it is a 'from thirty years past' concept and design has moved on. If the Dapol designer looks at current Bachmann leading pony trucks - and by heck Bachmann have a lot of models with leading pony trucks - the very simple flat spring bearing on a light truck is self recommending, very simple with few components, quick to assemble, reliable in service.

[Miss Prism]

Dapol will, I'm sure, read through our posts.

 

Possibly. I imagine Dapol will prefer its own digest site as an avenue of comment.

[gwrrob]

Possibly. I imagine Dapol will prefer its own digest site as an avenue of comment.

 

A bit underwhelming though.

 

https://digest.Dapol.co.uk/forum/main-forum/steam-aa/gwr-5100-class-large-prairie/6675-gwr-prairie-and-mogul

[tomparryharry]

Possibly. I imagine Dapol will prefer its own digest site as an avenue of comment.

Good point Miss P. However, it's the content that counts, despite the fact that I'm using the wrong postal address!

Edited December 17, 2017 by tomparryharry

[tomparryharry]

Tin hat on just in case... Perhaps they didn't like superior Welsh coal?

Two things to chuck in here. One is the fixed wheelbase on a locomotive. The 80000 series tanks had a significant fixed wheelbase, to the point where the left leading driver is trying to butt up against the right trailing driver. Compound that against a reverse curve, and you are liable with only one set of drivers actually doing the work.

 

The second is wheel tyre profile. I'm pretty sure somewhere that Western locomotive tyres had a different profile. This was pretty much discontinued by the early sixties, when Swindon & others went over to the more recognised BR Engineering profiles. Tysley was a well-known black spot. Western locomotives never had a problem, but the Midland locos were always coming unstuck.

 

Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

It really wouldn’t surprise me if Hornby announce one of these in a few weeks time- in which case they are probably far ahead of Dapol in development....

 

The new regime at Hornby don't seem to be keen to announce or hint at anything unless it fits their return to the old-fashioned annual announcement idea.  I do wonder if we will ever see the like of like trouncing Hattons/DJM's announcement of what turned out to be a stillborn 'King' because fleetness of foot on their part disappeared with this year's Warley show and an apparent rundown of The Engine Shed (which was one of the best marketing tools they have ever had).

[GWR8700]

Why are some people so convinced that Hornby will be announcing one of these?  Just wondering if this is based on being ITK, clues given or just a calculated guess?

It might explain why was announced just now, seemingly out the blue.

Edited December 17, 2017 by GWR8700

[The Johnster]

Tin hat on just in case... Perhaps they didn't like superior Welsh coal?

 

Possibly, but keep the tin hat handy.  The BR standards were designed to burn Yorkshire coal, as were the LMS designs they were influenced by and, in some cases, derived from; the fireboxes were a different profile to the GW ones which were designed to burn the higher calorific valued Welsh steam coal, Aberdare being preferred.  The 4MT tank, while evolved from earlier LMS Fowler, Stanier, and Fairburn locos, is in many ways a tank engine version of the 76xxx mogul, itself a version of the Ivatt 4MT flying pig.  

 

But, again, the WR's standards did well enough on Aberdare and similar coal.  The 3MT tank and mogul were Swindon products, and used a domed version of the standard no.2 boiler, on the running gear of an LMS prairie.  The derivation of this loco is less apparent, and lies in the Fowler and Stanier prairies, so one wonders why those abominations were repeated.  The LNER Thomspson V1/V3 may have been an influence as well, but again was not a loco that covered itself in glory; I have heard it said that the electric lights were the best part.

 

But the Swindon standards were built to provide the best tractive effort at the lowest axle load, and while they were not considered successful in their short lives and very soon replaced by dmus on passenger work (and not long after by small diesels on the little pick freight that was left), fulfilled the design brief well enough, the Stainmore line and the Cambrian coming to mind.  I never really understood the use of the 82xxx in South Wales, except that they were the nearest thing Swindon was turning out to the 5101s that the sheds wanted and a good power match for the Taff Vale As.  Route availability is not an issue in South Wales; you have to go north of Merthyr for that!

 

I did not know about tomparryharry's tyre profile point, another spaniard in the works of trying to understand all this.

[Ian Hargrave]

Possibly. I imagine Dapol will prefer its own digest site as an avenue of comment.

A bit underwhelming though.

 

https://digest.Dapol.co.uk/forum/main-forum/steam-aa/gwr-5100-class-large-prairie/6675-gwr-prairie-and-mogul

Good point Miss P. However, it's the content that counts, despite the fact that I'm using the wrong postal address!

Dapol's relationship with RMWeb has not been without its difficulties,gents. An outburst of trolling here a little while ago led to the company posting an intention to take further action on its website. It behoves all of us to measure carefully exactly what we post and it is in nobody's best interest to cause further damage,it goes without saying. It would be mutually beneficial to get them on side and establish a constructive dialogue.

 

Meantime we build bridges .But don't expect much in the way of communication until this happens...if it happens. I know Oxford Rail was bruised by what happened with the Dean Goods.....however self inflicted that may have been.I think Ian ( Tomparryharry) has already pointed this out.

.

[Coach bogie]

 I am hoping that some of the obvious omissions on the CAD drawing, the bunker handrails and sliding shutters,

Not all of us want the shutters, A later addition on the 51XX.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Steamport Southport]

Why are some people so convinced that Hornby will be announcing one of these?  Just wondering if this is based on being ITK, clues given or just a calculated guess?

It might explain why was announced just now, seemingly out the blue.

 

Clues given, leading to an educated guess.....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Coppercap]

Not all of us want the shutters, A later addition on the 51XX.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Nor bunker steps either...

[tomparryharry]

Clues given, leading to an educated guess.....

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

There was some speculation (myself included) about the possibility of a large prairie model. Views were expressed that the likely candidates were Bachmann, and Hornby. Hornby had a 'front runner' because of the older Airfix prairie, and Bachmann, due to previous form with the 43xx mogul. Dapol have entered the market with their version, and naturally, made quite a surprise. The wording & nature of Dapols' press release shows that a positive & helpful response goes a long way to us, the buyers, getting what we actually want. Hornby might well announce their product in a couple of weeks, but we don't know. Naturally, if a producer takes time to engage the potential buyers, then the chances of a 'right first time' increases enormously. The flip side happens if there is a lack of communication, or a poorly executed model. Nobody wants that, so a large portion of mutual respect is required. Most posters on here have extensive background & research available, and it's mostly at the touch of a button. Mostly, it's freely given as well! Polite discussion from a couple of months back, has led us to being in a situation where a producer has entered the market, with definite intent, and another with some degree of speculation.

 

It makes me wonder that, if we continue on a path of détente, what else can we achieve?

 

Ian.

[tomparryharry]

Nor bunker steps either...

Back to Dapols' press release, showed different 'era' extras. Perhaps it's a case of "remove here, here, here & here, to get the period you want" sort of thing..... I still get caught in the minefield, and I've got the books right here!

 

Ian.