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OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie


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21 hours ago, coeurdelyon said:

Hi David,

Trust you are keeping well.

I have attached a couple of pictures, a 7mm scale model built from a Martin Finney kit which are regarded as very accurate and well designed, plus a picture of the Dapol decorated sample for review and obviously requires some paint corrections, but if you compare the chimneys I think you will find they are very similar. 

Thanks,

Best Richard

Martin Finney kitbuilt.jpg

6167 l.h..jpg

Hello Richard

would you kindly feed back that making the improved 30 to 1 gear set as a retro fit would be welcomed by some purchasers of the mogul ?  Thanks 

Ken 

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Hi, looking forward to getting the Dapol large Pannier when it comes out. Does anyone know or have any ideas where I can find out how many 61xx’s were repainted into BR Green and in which year. Thanks Fred 

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28 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, looking forward to getting the Dapol large Pannier when it comes out. Does anyone know or have any ideas where I can find out how many 61xx’s were repainted into BR Green and in which year. Thanks Fred 

Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but 6147 was painted into BR unlined green at some point - pictured fresh from overhaul in April 1964GWR_2-6-2T_6147_at_Swindon_Works_(level_

6135 and 6141 were also unlined green. Pictured in February and May 1964 respectively:
https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/Old-Oak-Common-MPD/i-27j3NMH 

https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/Old-Oak-Common-MPD/i-CGXKkwx
 

6144 was another unlined green one
img?regionKey=EqQRxdOcZndmVviLCTPcoA==

 

6163 was lined green by August 1959:
322554.jpg

 

This eBay listing of all things shows 6157 in lined green, apparrently circa 1959: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PHOTO-GWR-61XX-NO-6157-1959-AT-PADDINGTON-LIGHT-ENGINE-/362614681975

 

...and that's about all from a quick Google search!

 

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3 hours ago, MattA said:

Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but 6147 was painted into BR unlined green at some point - pictured fresh from overhaul in April 1964GWR_2-6-2T_6147_at_Swindon_Works_(level_

6135 and 6141 were also unlined green. Pictured in February and May 1964 respectively:
https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/Old-Oak-Common-MPD/i-27j3NMH 

https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/Old-Oak-Common-MPD/i-CGXKkwx
 

6144 was another unlined green one
img?regionKey=EqQRxdOcZndmVviLCTPcoA==

 

 

 

...and that's about all from a quick Google search!

 

But don't go confusing economy green with any any earlier unlined green on these engines.  The gap between the re-introduction of green and the adoption of lined green was quite short.  But you can make a reasonable bet that any really clean/recently painted engine in plain green post c.1960/61 had been painted in 'economy green'. (the economy being to not add any lining.  6147 in fresh green ex-works that late is clearly in 'economy green'.

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Wasn't entirely clear what the question was but in terms of whether particular locos carried green at all, rail online, colour rail and the transport library are all good sources of photos, albeit many in black and white which makes it hard to tell if the loco is grubby and you cant see any lining. 

Edited by Hal Nail
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Ok so, today... Dapol made an announcement regarding the upcoming Manor model but, interesting reading that they will be making the following improvements to the future prairie and to continuing and additional releases of 43xx..........

 

"Continual Improvement -

 

In line with Dapol’s philosophy of continual improvement and in conjunction with listening to customer feedback, potential areas of improvement were identified with the Mogul. We have addressed these opportunities in the new OO Gauge Manor tooling and they will also be incorporated into future production runs of the Mogul 2-6-0 and in the soon to be released Prairie 2-6-2. Some of the improvements we are making are listed below:

 

Dapol has adjusted the gearing being in the Manor and the Prairie to a 30-1 ratio, this will provide excellent slow speed running as well as an accurate top speed.

The crosshead has an enhanced level of detail, along with the accurately portrayed die-cast motion bracket and slide-bars. A working representation of the vacuum pump is fitted as standard to the Manor Class model.

There have also been improvements made to the firebox glow to better showcase this feature of the model. This modification will also appear in future releases of the Mogul and also in the new Prairie."

 

 

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1 hour ago, B10M said:

 

 

"Continual Improvement -

 

In line with Dapol’s philosophy of continual improvement and in conjunction with listening to customer feedback, potential areas of improvement were identified with the Mogul. We have addressed these opportunities in the new OO Gauge Manor tooling and they will also be incorporated into future production runs of the Mogul 2-6-0 and in the soon to be released Prairie 2-6-2. Some of the improvements we are making are listed below:

 

Dapol has adjusted the gearing being in the Manor and the Prairie to a 30-1 ratio, this will provide excellent slow speed running as well as an accurate top speed.

The crosshead has an enhanced level of detail, along with the accurately portrayed die-cast motion bracket and slide-bars. A working representation of the vacuum pump is fitted as standard to the Manor Class model.

There have also been improvements made to the firebox glow to better showcase this feature of the model. This modification will also appear in future releases of the Mogul and also in the new Prairie."

 

 

In other words "We ballsed it up":jester:

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20 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

.... But you can make a reasonable bet that any really clean/recently painted engine in plain green post c.1960/61 had been painted in 'economy green'. (the economy being to not add any lining.  6147 in fresh green ex-works that late is clearly in 'economy green'.

I confess that I had not come across 'economy green' before. It does explain how some previously lined green engines appear to lose their lining in the final years of their life - i.e. it is not just that they are filthier. 

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14 hours ago, B10M said:

Ok so, today... Dapol made an announcement regarding the upcoming Manor model but, interesting reading that they will be making the following improvements to the future prairie and to continuing and additional releases of 43xx..........

 

"Continual Improvement -

 

In line with Dapol’s philosophy of continual improvement and in conjunction with listening to customer feedback, potential areas of improvement were identified with the Mogul. We have addressed these opportunities in the new OO Gauge Manor tooling and they will also be incorporated into future production runs of the Mogul 2-6-0 and in the soon to be released Prairie 2-6-2. Some of the improvements we are making are listed below:

 

Dapol has adjusted the gearing being in the Manor and the Prairie to a 30-1 ratio, this will provide excellent slow speed running as well as an accurate top speed.

The crosshead has an enhanced level of detail, along with the accurately portrayed die-cast motion bracket and slide-bars. A working representation of the vacuum pump is fitted as standard to the Manor Class model.

There have also been improvements made to the firebox glow to better showcase this feature of the model. This modification will also appear in future releases of the Mogul and also in the new Prairie."

 

 

 

It's great that Dapol intend to improve the Mogul but bad strategy to announce it quite so straightforwardly. Their customer communication is really not very clever!

 

If we customers know that there's a better version coming then why buy the current version? Some discounting might now be needed to shift the current stock.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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13 hours ago, B10M said:

Ok so, today... Dapol made an announcement regarding the upcoming Manor model but, interesting reading that they will be making the following improvements to the future prairie and to continuing and additional releases of 43xx..........

 

"Continual Improvement -

 

In line with Dapol’s philosophy of continual improvement and in conjunction with listening to customer feedback, potential areas of improvement were identified with the Mogul. We have addressed these opportunities in the new OO Gauge Manor tooling and they will also be incorporated into future production runs of the Mogul 2-6-0 and in the soon to be released Prairie 2-6-2. Some of the improvements we are making are listed below:

 

Dapol has adjusted the gearing being in the Manor and the Prairie to a 30-1 ratio, this will provide excellent slow speed running as well as an accurate top speed.

The crosshead has an enhanced level of detail, along with the accurately portrayed die-cast motion bracket and slide-bars. A working representation of the vacuum pump is fitted as standard to the Manor Class model.

There have also been improvements made to the firebox glow to better showcase this feature of the model. This modification will also appear in future releases of the Mogul and also in the new Prairie."

 

 

 

Well I skipped the first release, initially because Dapol products tend to be a bit like the curate's egg, some good, some bad.  Then they put a smokebox door number plate on the GWR version.  Finally when it was actually released with its shortcomings listed earier in this post, my mind was made up.  In the last week or so, it occured to me that Accurascale might adapt their upcoming Manor chassis to produce a Mogul, its what Mainline did decades ago.  Now I'm glad I waited, if Dapol do rectify ALL the mistakes in the first batch, although reading the above I'm not convinced they are going to change the gearing, I'll have two or three.

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7 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

It's great that Dapol intend to improve the Mogul but bad strategy to announce it quite so straightforwardly. Their customer communication is really not very clever!

 

If we customers know that there's a better version coming then why buy the current version? Some discounting might now be needed to shift the current stock.

 

 

Maybe - a lot of customers don't follow forums or social media and so will be both blissfully unaware of the problems and that an improved version is coming.

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18 hours ago, melmerby said:

In other words "We ballsed it up":jester:

 

In fairness, all of the manufacturers at various time make mistakes.

 

Rather than poking fun at them, I think it would be better to congratulate any manufacturer that admits to them and listens to the customer feedback and fixes them - it would after all be just as easy to ignore it.

 

Particularly given that we have someone from Dapol both reading an occasionally providing feedback on RMweb, a welcome development.

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1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

In fairness, all of the manufacturers at various time make mistakes.

 

Rather than poking fun at them, I think it would be better to congratulate any manufacturer that admits to them and listens to the customer feedback and fixes them - it would after all be just as easy to ignore it.

 

Particularly given that we have someone from Dapol both reading an occasionally providing feedback on RMweb, a welcome development.

True and it's good they have re-visited the model to correct that which is fundamentally wrong, but the gearing and the crosshead/slide bar errors* are IMHO both schoolboy mistakes.

A company that has been making 00 model steam locos for quite some time really shouldn't have let those slip through at the design stage.

 

Look at their ancient "10XX County Class". The crosshead/slidebars are far better looking (but unfortunately plastic), even a metal representation of those would have been better.

 

18:1 gearing, where an earth did that come from? Surely Dapol have put more sensible ratios in their other steam locos?

Even ancient Triang locos were (slightly) better at 20:1.

 

I'm also a bit miffed that I have bought the one 43XX I wan't only to find it "upgraded" to what it should have been, within a very short space of time.:(

It would be nice if Dapol could offer a re-work service to correct the original basic errors (if it is possible with the original model) Even at a nominal fee.

 

EDIT

Just revisted the originally released CADs and the crosshead/slidebar as produced is not that in the CADs.

Why was it changed?

Edited by melmerby
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29 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

 

EDIT

Just revisted the originally released CADs and the crosshead/slidebar as produced is not that in the CADs.

Why was it changed?

Maybe whatever was shown in the 3D CAD was unachievable in production? I see a lot of that at work.

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17 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Maybe whatever was shown in the 3D CAD was unachievable in production? I see a lot of that at work.

Hornby managed to make it look reasonable, using the same prototype measurements.

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9 hours ago, Pteremy said:

I confess that I had not come across 'economy green' before. It does explain how some previously lined green engines appear to lose their lining in the final years of their life - i.e. it is not just that they are filthier. 

There were also a handful of unlined green locos earlier on in BR days - which you would have little hope of identifying in black and white! I found a lined green mogul paired with a plain black tender the other day as well.

 

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

True and it's good they have re-visited the model to correct that which is fundamentally wrong, but the gearing and the crosshead/slide bar errors* are IMHO both schoolboy mistakes.

A company that has been making 00 model steam locos for quite some time really shouldn't have let those slip through at the design stage.

 

Look at their ancient "10XX County Class". The crosshead/slidebars are far better looking (but unfortunately plastic), even a metal representation of those would have been better.

Dapol has basically changed hands a number of times since the County was designed in the days of David do not dare discount the prices Boyle through George fake posts on uk.rec.modelrailways Smith and D**** J**** and did largely give up on OO in the mid 1990s.

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26 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

There were also a handful of unlined green locos earlier on in BR days - which you would have little hope of identifying in black and white!

 

You are correct - a tiny handful of locos emerged from Swindon, probably in 1956 or 57 in unlined plain green with the original 'Cycling Lion' emblem. I have only found photos of three examples, one of which being Churchward Mogul 5311 which is shown in colour in Keith Pirt's 'Steam Colour Portfolio - Great Western Region Volume 1' . David Maidment's 'Great Western 0-6-2 Tank Classes' shows 5664 and 6639 also in this livery, albeit black and white photos!

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44 minutes ago, 7007GreatWestern said:

Churchward Mogul 5311 which is shown in colour in Keith Pirt's 'Steam Colour Portfolio - Great Western Region Volume 1' . 

Turn over one page for 4569! 

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8 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Turn over one page for 4569! 

Right you are! Didn't spot that one!! Anyway, it does appear to be one of the rarer liveries and was a portent of the 'economy green' livery introduced in the 60s with the later 'ferret and dartboard' coat of arms.

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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

True and it's good they have re-visited the model to correct that which is fundamentally wrong, but the gearing and the crosshead/slide bar errors* are IMHO both schoolboy mistakes.

A company that has been making 00 model steam locos for quite some time really shouldn't have let those slip through at the design stage.

 

In addition to the noted changes in personnel at Dapol by Butler Hendersen, but there will also have been changes in both factories and the people working at those factories in the intervening years - and while I don't have specific knowledge regarding Dapol and big issue in a lot of companies is the loss of what is called institutional knowledge given the turnover of staff that happens a lot more frequently these days.

 

So the fact that company X has been doing something for many decades really doesn't count for much - I mean, just look at Boeing...

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

18:1 gearing, where an earth did that come from? Surely Dapol have put more sensible ratios in their other steam locos?

Even ancient Triang locos were (slightly) better at 20:1.

 

Someone somewhere in the pipeline thought it would be a good idea - the same thing happened in the US in the 90s when Life Like suddenly released a diesel model with an oddball gearing ratio.

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

I'm also a bit miffed that I have bought the one 43XX I wan't only to find it "upgraded" to what it should have been, within a very short space of time.:(

It would be nice if Dapol could offer a re-work service to correct the original basic errors (if it is possible with the original model) Even at a nominal fee.

 

I understand, this is annoying, and hopefully something can be done for people like you who really care.

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22 hours ago, melmerby said:

True and it's good they have re-visited the model to correct that which is fundamentally wrong, but the gearing and the crosshead/slide bar errors* are IMHO both schoolboy mistakes.

A company that has been making 00 model steam locos for quite some time really shouldn't have let those slip through at the design stage.

 

Look at their ancient "10XX County Class". The crosshead/slidebars are far better looking (but unfortunately plastic), even a metal representation of those would have been better.

 

18:1 gearing, where an earth did that come from? Surely Dapol have put more sensible ratios in their other steam locos?

Even ancient Triang locos were (slightly) better at 20:1.

 

I'm also a bit miffed that I have bought the one 43XX I wan't only to find it "upgraded" to what it should have been, within a very short space of time.:(

It would be nice if Dapol could offer a re-work service to correct the original basic errors (if it is possible with the original model) Even at a nominal fee.

 

EDIT

Just revisted the originally released CADs and the crosshead/slidebar as produced is not that in the CADs.

Why was it changed?

I'll surmise that the 18:1 ratio is a glitch somewhere down the line. 28, or 38:1 would make the loco far more tractable. if-when Dapol release the manor, then perhaps we can purchase an upgrade.   In reality, It's a bit of a tough call for Dapol. The prospect of  'Ham-Fisted Harry' bodging an upgrade, and then returning said bodge to Dapol, is all too real.  Product drift is fairly common where the factory contractor has 2 or more clients having work at the same time.  We had an almighty dust-up with Ford, when we were turning out pepper-pot alloys for both Sierra & Orion models ( remember them? ). All the same size, 6x14", but with different offsets for front wheel & rear wheel models.  It wouldn't surprise me if the Dapol model is being made at the same site as another competitors model... I'm not about to criticise anyone; after all, I wasn't there...but it's sometimes a simple error that creates acres of posts on the web. 

 

EP sample?  Yes, looks good :- Go! But the lady or gent who actually made the model had a different set of parts.....  " Who ordered the Hyundai steering wheels? Not us! we ordered some loco models!  Well, go and look in the container, clever clogs! Yes,  it does happen....  

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“It takes a genius to make the first mark on paper ; any fool can improve it from there .”

Personally , I am going to have to take my mark 1 mogul apart to convert it to EM and take responsibility .So I would be content to retro fit worm , idler and final drive myself . If I muck it up , that’s down to me .

I've acquired a little bit of experience ( some from working on my beloved Orion ) but I wouldn’t recommend a rookie doing it themselves  as the first job they tackle . I’m grateful that Dapol have listened and learned .!

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16 minutes ago, 1466 said:

“It takes a genius to make the first mark on paper ; any fool can improve it from there .”

Personally , I am going to have to take my mark 1 mogul apart to convert it to EM and take responsibility .So I would be content to retro fit worm , idler and final drive myself . If I muck it up , that’s down to me .

I've acquired a little bit of experience ( some from working on my beloved Orion ) but I wouldn’t recommend a rookie doing it themselves  as the first job they tackle . I’m grateful that Dapol have listened and learned .!

 

Oh Lordy, we made thousands & thousands of Orion wheels....

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