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OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie


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1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Oh Lordy, we made thousands & thousands of Orion wheels....

I had a couple of Orions (saloon versions of escorts)

They had different diameter wheels but the 2nd one (1600i) had alloys that would fit at the front or back.

It looked exactly like this:

e0c9850f64962257cda8963ad0f45fe9.jpg

Same plate letter as well.

Nice motor.

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I had a couple of Orions (saloon versions of escorts)

They had different diameter wheels but the 2nd one (1600i) had alloys that would fit at the front or back.

It looked exactly like this:

e0c9850f64962257cda8963ad0f45fe9.jpg

Same plate letter as well.

Nice motor.

 

The front face of the Orion  wheel was almost identical to the Sierra model. same diameter, etc. However, the offsets were indeed different from front to rear-wheel drive.  Looking at your picture, I would suggest your wheels are for the Sierra model, due to the shape of the rim. Looking inside, at the back of the wheel, you would see an 'O' or 'S' engraved into the back of a spoke, so the shop floor staff could tell them apart at a glance. 

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On 08/02/2021 at 21:59, B10M said:

Ok so, today... Dapol made an announcement regarding the upcoming Manor model but, interesting reading that they will be making the following improvements to the future prairie and to continuing and additional releases of 43xx..........

 

"Continual Improvement -

 

In line with Dapol’s philosophy of continual improvement and in conjunction with listening to customer feedback, potential areas of improvement were identified with the Mogul. We have addressed these opportunities in the new OO Gauge Manor tooling and they will also be incorporated into future production runs of the Mogul 2-6-0 and in the soon to be released Prairie 2-6-2. Some of the improvements we are making are listed below:

 

Dapol has adjusted the gearing being in the Manor and the Prairie to a 30-1 ratio, this will provide excellent slow speed running as well as an accurate top speed.

The crosshead has an enhanced level of detail, along with the accurately portrayed die-cast motion bracket and slide-bars. A working representation of the vacuum pump is fitted as standard to the Manor Class model.

There have also been improvements made to the firebox glow to better showcase this feature of the model. This modification will also appear in future releases of the Mogul and also in the new Prairie."

 

 

 pretty blunt, but at least it's honest. No faffing around the subject. It would appear that Dapol's intention is to   be honest with its client base, and take it forward.  Every business worth its salt has 'continuous improvement' within its small print.  I hope that we can purchase the parts to retrofit our respective models. I've got one of the first ones made; still in its box.  Hmmm.  

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Would be nice to see the revisions made however those of us (myself included) who bought the initial release are bound to have their nose out of joint sadly. I'm just glad to say that using a Bachmann dc controller mine seems to crawl well thank god so I don't feel quite so short changed. 

On the subject of Accurascale it looks to be the more accurate and finer model of the two as far as the Manor class is concerned, rivet accuracy fine details etc. Would be good to see a mogul afterwards BUT....... my gripe with the Accurascale model is the 3 pole motor which imo isn't the best for dc users.

 

Cheers 

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3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 pretty blunt, but at least it's honest. No faffing around the subject. It would appear that Dapol's intention is to   be honest with its client base, and take it forward.  Every business worth its salt has 'continuous improvement' within its small print.  I hope that we can purchase the parts to retrofit our respective models. I've got one of the first ones made; still in its box.  Hmmm.  

Yes and to be honest I'm pleased to see a manufacturer has taken into account our views and gripes etc but really can't believe that those involved in testing and sampling didn't notice said issues before release. 

I too bought one from the first batch and I'm happy to report it crawls very well using a Bachmann dc controller so I don't quite feel so short changed. I'm guessing the whole gear set would need swapping for the new ratio which would be a hateful job to strip such a model so soon.

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14 hours ago, 1466 said:

“It takes a genius to make the first mark on paper ; any fool can improve it from there .”!


Well that makes Churchward the genius then.......and everyone else......?  :lol:

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1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:


Well that makes Churchward the genius then.......and everyone else......?  :lol:

 

Got a Mr Holcroft on the blower - says he'd like to see you in his office now...

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Thanks for all the examples of the locos in unlined BR Green like 6106 and 6167. Does anyone know which years those two specifically received the unlined Green? Thanks Fred 

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22 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Thanks for all the examples of the locos in unlined BR Green like 6106 and 6167. Does anyone know which years those two specifically received the unlined Green? Thanks Fred 

6106 in immaculate condition at Swindon in July 64 so its a pretty good bet it was then https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/6106-2/

 

6167 ex works in May 63 https://railphotoprints.uk/p254437496/h23FFAF5E#h23ffaf5e

 

Obviously they could have already been in unlined green earlier but repaints weren't that regular.

Edited by Hal Nail
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8 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Got a Mr Holcroft on the blower - says he'd like to see you in his office now...

 

"There is a Mr Henry Maudsley awaiting you in reception. ..." 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Regarding the problems with the Dapol Mogul cylinder slidebars, crosshead and conecting rod Brassmasters are going to produce replacements.  Their test etches have been built and here is how they build up:

 

I guess there will be a little wait before they are in production, I have been promised more details from the Brassmasters site

Tony

 

 

slidebar test etch 2.jpg

Edited by Rail-Online
typo
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A huge improvement, but that conn rod looks to be still overlength. With cranks at top or bottom dead centre, the crosshead pin should coincide with the motion bracket.

 

4331-motion.jpg.8e9b023c536c285accb827ad3176ffe2.jpg

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

A huge improvement, but that conn rod looks to be still overlength. With cranks at top or bottom dead centre, the crosshead pin should coincide with the motion bracket.

 

4331-motion.jpg.8e9b023c536c285accb827ad3176ffe2.jpg

 

And when at the back of its stroke the back of the cross head aligns with the rear of the slidebars....

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8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

A huge improvement, but that conn rod looks to be still overlength. With cranks at top or bottom dead centre, the crosshead pin should coincide with the motion bracket.

 

4331-motion.jpg.8e9b023c536c285accb827ad3176ffe2.jpg

 

A correct length Con Rod is also available!

 

Tony

 

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I would like to come back to the Mogul once again. I did read (most of) the pages of this thread, however I don't want to rule out that something I ask now might have been covered and answered already. Apologies should this be the case and for any spelling mistake I might make as I am not an English native speaker:umbrage:.

I was thinking abour getting a Mogul but after the previous reactions in this thread, a couple of questions arose on my side.

 

1.) Several people mentioned that the gearing is not as good as it could be (to put it mildly). However, how "bad" is the running performance on plain DC really? I remember reading comments that running on DCC was good and it wasn't on DC, whereas other comments stated the opposite. I would not want to use it as a shunter but if performance is getting inconsistent at low speeds it would be a point to consider before I purchase.

2.) My preferred livery would be a Mogul in BR-green. As I am living in Germany, I don't really fancy buying in Britain because of the actual situation and customs etc. to adapt to the new circumstances, I could only buy the early crest version (Dapol 4S-043-005; BR number 6364). What I find a bit strange is that the fender of the tender seems to be lined as well. I've read somewhere that some fenders have been lined but it seems that only very few engines actually had tenders with lined fenders. Is this prototypical for this specific engine?

3.) Apart from the fender lining (I could live with that, even though it's rare:P); in terms of era, I am tending towards the later BR crest. Assuming that the fender lining and the early crest are correct, up to which date could the tender have carried the early crest? I am aware of the fact that changing a crest immediately after the introduction of a new one is/was highly unlikely, so I assume it could have lasted into the early 60s...?

4.) I remember a post from someone who, after wheathering the engines and therefore opning it, posted about connection problems with the connection between the tender and the loco. After a couple of months in service on layouts, has anyone else experienced such or similar problems?

 

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19 minutes ago, Br50_Kab said:

I would like to come back to the Mogul once again. I did read (most of) the pages of this thread, however I don't want to rule out that something I ask now might have been covered and answered already. Apologies should this be the case and for any spelling mistake I might make as I am not an English native speaker:umbrage:.

I was thinking abour getting a Mogul but after the previous reactions in this thread, a couple of questions arose on my side.

 

1.) Several people mentioned that the gearing is not as good as it could be (to put it mildly). However, how "bad" is the running performance on plain DC really? I remember reading comments that running on DCC was good and it wasn't on DC, whereas other comments stated the opposite. I would not want to use it as a shunter but if performance is getting inconsistent at low speeds it would be a point to consider before I purchase.

2.) My preferred livery would be a Mogul in BR-green. As I am living in Germany, I don't really fancy buying in Britain because of the actual situation and customs etc. to adapt to the new circumstances, I could only buy the early crest version (Dapol 4S-043-005; BR number 6364). What I find a bit strange is that the fender of the tender seems to be lined as well. I've read somewhere that some fenders have been lined but it seems that only very few engines actually had tenders with lined fenders. Is this prototypical for this specific engine?

3.) Apart from the fender lining (I could live with that, even though it's rare:P); in terms of era, I am tending towards the later BR crest. Assuming that the fender lining and the early crest are correct, up to which date could the tender have carried the early crest? I am aware of the fact that changing a crest immediately after the introduction of a new one is/was highly unlikely, so I assume it could have lasted into the early 60s...?

4.) I remember a post from someone who, after wheathering the engines and therefore opning it, posted about connection problems with the connection between the tender and the loco. After a couple of months in service on layouts, has anyone else experienced such or similar problems?

 

I have two of them and they are both excellent runners straight out the box on DC and have been wonderful on DCC too. Judging on this thread maybe there is a slightly higher number of problem ones than normal, but I would rate the two I’ve got as among the best running engines I have. I would recommend anyone who doesn’t get one which they are satisfied with to try and return/swap.

 

For me the gearing isn’t a problem as they will go as slow as I could possibly want (almost imperceptible) and are perfectly smooth. The only problem you could say is that the top speed is too high, but there is a very simple solution to that!

 

I’m almost certain the fender lining is prototypical as I’m sure there have been a couple of photos found to prove it. I don’t know the dates for the early crest models, and unless anyone on here has done the research and has them to hand the best bet is searching around for photos.

 

My two haven’t had much use yet, but I plan on keeping the tender permanently attached as much as possible to minimise the risk there, but no sign of any problems yet.

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The fenders of the tenders running with 6372 and 6385 were lined in May 56, with early crests (for Royal duties). Those tenders probably did migrate to other locos 2 or 3 years later (say). I have never seen a picture of 6364. It is unknown when or if those particular tenders got repainted.

 

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11 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 I have never seen a picture of 6364. It is unknown when or if those particular tenders got repainted.

 

Someone posted a spreadsheet of photos earlier in this thread and it includes 3 refs to 6364. One is with a lined tender, as depicted by Dapol - 5/5/57, freshly painted at Swindon - p76 In Andrews Churchward 2-6-0s. The caption says that fender lining was discontinued 2 months later.

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12 hours ago, Br50_Kab said:

4.) I remember a post from someone who, after wheathering the engines and therefore opning it, posted about connection problems with the connection between the tender and the loco. After a couple of months in service on layouts, has anyone else experienced such or similar problems?

Yes that was me.  I cured the problem by smearing electrical grease on the plug and socket, plus as Matthew states above I now intend to keep loco and tender coupled.  Not had a problem since. 

 

I have two Moguls both now run beautifully on DCC, good slow speed control.  (I can't comment on running on DC)    

 

P.S your written English is better than mine, and I am a native English speaker  :jester:  

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3 hours ago, Pteremy said:

Someone posted a spreadsheet of photos earlier in this thread and it includes 3 refs to 6364. One is with a lined tender, as depicted by Dapol - 5/5/57, freshly painted at Swindon - p76 In Andrews Churchward 2-6-0s. The caption says that fender lining was discontinued 2 months later.

 

Silly me, I have that spreadsheet, but thanks for the extra caption information.

 

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Thanks for all the replies:D.

 

I searched for the spreadsheet and found it. Unfortunately, the pictures on the website mentioned as source are early 1960s ones and on these you cannot even see any crest, let alone lining:rolleyes:.

My British rolling stock started off as a very small side-thing next to my Continental stock (Western Germany 1950s/1960s) in 2008 after buying a Dapol milk tanker in Bath while on holidays in the UK. After that, I bought more and more stock; mostly on ebay and at Hatton's. However, I still want to keep it as side-thing and therefore, I do not own any railway literature. Nevertheless, I try to be as accurate as possible although in the beginning, I bought quite a bit that would not fit the BR-period....

So, I could live with the fender lining. What I am still unsure about is how many early crests were still around what is known as BR late crest era (say 1960 onwards)? From what I have read here and on other sites, there were engines that kept the early crest, yes. I am just wondering how many actually kept this crest, so whether an early crest engine in the 1960s could be seen but was a very rare sight or whether spotting an early crest one was still rather common. It seems that neglect from depots in terms of cleaning and maintaining makes spotting liveries and crests on photos of engines in these years rather difficult.

 

Reagrding the fender lining, I found this website where there is some information on WR liveries:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveriesloco1948.html

From what is written there, I get the impression that there were more than two tenders with fender lining (not many though). Or were there only the two for Royal duties that were attached to other engines as Miss Prism suggests.

 

 

10 hours ago, Gopher said:

P.S your written English is better than mine, and I am a native English speaker  :jester:  

:offtopic:Thanks:mosking:. I try to be as accurate as possible. Since I did not speak much English after grammar school, I noticed that it is a bit rusty. Answering takes longer and I need to look up more words than I would probably had to roughly a decade ago.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Br50_Kab said:

What I am still unsure about is how many early crests were still around what is known as BR late crest era (say 1960 onwards)? From what I have read here and on other sites, there were engines that kept the early crest, yes. I am just wondering how many actually kept this crest, so whether an early crest engine in the 1960s could be seen but was a very rare sight or whether spotting an early crest one was still rather common. It seems that neglect from depots in terms of cleaning and maintaining makes spotting liveries and crests on photos of engines in these years rather difficult.

 

Very difficult to quantify this, particularly for Moguls, for a number of reasons: tenders were not repainted as often as locos, the number of Moguls was declining rapidly after the late crest was introduced, and those locos that did survive post-1956 were either selected for green with lining (and whose tenders got late crests) or were left in a black uncleaned state (where the tender insignia is unclear).

 

Approx 186 Moguls survived past 1959. 42 of them are known to have been lined. That leaves approx 140 in black. The majority of tenders associated with black Moguls would be early crest, and a relatively small number of tenders would have been refurbished with late crest. The division between black early crest and black late crest is not known.

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A short running session featuring the all new Dapol GWR Mogul Class 2-6-0 edited with real sound. 
Sounds are provided by a number of similar locomotives from my sound collection, captured at various Gala and Preserved Railways over the past few years.
Here we see No. 6364 in smart BR Early Lined Green, hauling a short goods train.
Hope you enjoy!

 

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19 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Very difficult to quantify this, particularly for Moguls, 

 

Approx 186 Moguls survived past 1959. 42 of them are known to have been lined. That leaves approx 140 in black.

 

Best bet is to look through one of the many photo sites eg colour rail, transport image library, rail online etc. I got the impression more were green than not from ploughing through myself but that's not a scientific survey!

 

Liveries seem to vary by area as well. I wanted a black one for the St Blazey or nearby and struggled to find one (at least in the right configuration) but there seemed to be more in the Midlands.

 

I've noticed a lot of the rare variations, such as BRITISH RAILWAYS on tank sides, early unlined green, lined green early crest etc etc feature on Cornish and Devon locos and I suspect whichever depot down that way did the painting (Newton Abbot?) liked to push a few through the paintshops as soon as a new set of rules came out. 

 

Edited by Hal Nail
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23 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Approx 186 Moguls survived past 1959. 42 of them are known to have been lined. That leaves approx 140 in black. The majority of tenders associated with black Moguls would be early crest, and a relatively small number of tenders would have been refurbished with late crest. The division between black early crest and black late crest is not known.

So in other words: if I want to be sure about a prototypical appearance it would be better to either go for BR green with late crest or BR black with a lot of weathering that one would have to apply with all possible risks of connectivity problems afterwards:biggrin_mini:?

Apart from that: you write that ~186 survived past 1959 and also, that many engines were withdrawn after the introduction of the late crest. A quick search for the Mogul on Wikipedia and other websites gives me a total production of 342 engines. If we don't count the 100 rebuilds into Granges and Manors that means that 242 should have made it into BR (maybe a few less due to age, war damage etc.). Then, 186 sounds still like a very substantial number to me. Although I have to admit that I don't know the numbers of other classes to be honest.....

 

4 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I've noticed a lot of the rare variations, such as BRITISH RAILWAYS on tank sides, early unlined green, lined green early crest etc etc feature on Cornish and Devon locos and I suspect whichever depot down that way did the painting (Newton Abbot?) liked to push a few through the paintshops as soon as a new set of rules came out. 

 

If i understand the allocations from BR database correctly, then 6364 does not seem to follow that rule since it looks as if it was never allocated to Cornwall or Devon:

 

(New) m/e 05/1925

44 Banburyon 01/01/1934 (Snapshot)

84C Banbury 4w/e 31/10/1959

84E Tyseley 4w/e 30/01/1960

82B St Philips Marsh 4w/e 05/11/1960

84G Kidderminster 4w/e 06/10/1962

2L Leamington w/e 22/02/1964

2P Kidderminster w/e 08/08/1964

2C Stourbridge Junction w/e 15/08/1964

   Withdrawn w/e 21/11/1964

Btw. (maybe a silly question): does the "gap" between 1934 and 1959 mean that allocations are unknown or that the engine was allocated to Banbury all the time? Sometimes, there are allocations listed when engines entered BR-service even though they remained where they were allocated to.

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