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Southern Region Coaches from my Workbench


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Not much apparent progress, but quite a few hours expended on preparing the Hornby Maunsell coach side the getting a good fit with the BB/Kirk sides. I have also drilled through for the door and commode handles, added the door hinges and door vents.The sides were attached one at at a time, being careful to ensure no gaps or misalignment between the roof and sides, fixed with superglue and liquid poly then reinforced with thicker poly glue. the end result seems quite robust.

 

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The gutter was then added with 10 X 20 thou plastic strip. Inside the coach I have glued some 40 thou corner pieces to take self tapping screws which you can see just to the right of the photo above. The screws go through holes drilled just outside the previous fixing points in the corners of the Hornby underframe, pass through the interior then screw into the corner pieces to hold the whole ensemble firmly together but still removable.

 

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Also seen in both pictures are the gas bottle equipment cases (2 each side) and the refrigerator vent ready to fix to the underframe, I have also carefully removed and cut the double battery boxes down to singles as fitted to this coach - they are very nice mouldings. Also not shown in the pictures I have done some work on the coach ends - I had not noticed but this Hornby coach has alarm gear on both ends! having selected which end I wished to retain I shaved the one off the other end, removing the top steps at the same time as per the prototype for my time period.

 

Next job is to complete the seating and tables for the saloon end of the coach. I have been through my stock of Southern Pride seats but cannot find anything suitable for the 2 + 1 arrangement shown on the plans so have ended up by cutting down some SP first class from 3 to 2 cushions and have also had to shorten same considerably to fit. More bits of plastic all over the workbench!

 

I am looking forward to having an example of this coach to run but it has not been the simplest build to date. I would be very interested to see anyone else's completed model of this diagram?

 

Tony

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Dug this out today...

 

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Part complete (story of my life), Ian Kirk sides cut into a Hornby Maunsell. One of many projects that I really should finish at some point.

 

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Possibly also need to find the corridor connections.

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I like the nice neat joints you achieved between the Kirk sides and the Hornby donor, 2Many Spams. I see you suffer from the same problem as me in that Hornby (or Bachmann) produce the same coach as you are currently working on! I would have thought it worth finishing it off as it looks as though you have done all the hard jobs?

 

The current coach seems to have consumed an above average amount of hours in construction so far for something that seemed initially to be less complicated than say the tavern restaurant car. This morning I spent an hour or so making up the water tank fillers for the roof, not a job I look forward to; the ones on this coach run in parallel for almost half the length of the coach, with 12 bends in each, and 5 supports! I managed to shape both and fit one before my eyesight and concentration failed. Will try and complete on Sunday and if I am successful will mean the coach is ready to move to the painting stage.

 

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I have 2 other coaches and a tender also at this stage but will have to wait until the right external conditions prevail to get the spray cans out. 

 

Tony

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Really tidy job on those combo sides Tony. Have you looked at Mike Trice's thread where he  'improves' the old bachman Thompsons? He uses a paper template and makes up the end pipework in parts on that template. Could you do something similar for the more complex roof pipework? I've never had much success doing that type of pipe run and it is so visible. In fact i think I've only done that on the Gresley/Eastleigh SR Buffet concversion.

I also remember reading something (was it on RMWeb?) about some SR EMU epgrades/kit builds (maybe) and that included a lot of roof conduit work; there may be some useful ideas there?

Phil

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  • 2 weeks later...

It has been some time since I posted on here, mainly waiting for suitable conditions conducive to spraying outside! I eventually managed to do it but resulted in stinking the house out as I brought the coaches inside to dry off - not very popular that day! I also had to redo the roof of the buffet twice as I had rushed filling the holes taking off the old fittings and rainstrip had left. Thank you Phil for the suggestions as to fitting the pipe runs, but in the end they went on without too much bother using ex coupling split pins crimped to the wire. Remaining work was mainly finishing the interior, glazing the body, adding transfers and hand painting the underframe and bogies.

 

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One day was consumed painting some more passengers for this coach and the Bulleids - I have also provided the buffet customers with cups of tea and plates of sandwiches (I couldn't manage prototype curls in the latter). As the plans also showed a 'display' at the end of the counter I amused myself this morning by making one up from some plasticard scraps and thin Perspex - it even has some 4mm Mars bars in it, which seems to be attracting the lady with the suitcases interest.

 

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The interior fits inside the body and is held at the correct height by 4 corner pads glued inside the body to which the underframe is fixed by 4 small screws which pass through the interior as shown by the small holes in the picture above. the screws then hold the whole assembly rigidly but capable of future dismantling. Unfortunately I cannot do this on the Bulleids as the ends are part of the underframe so they have to be permanently joined.

 

After some fettling I assembled the buffet, painted the ends, commode handles and door knobs - hopefully job done!

 

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I have left the Hornby couplings on at the moment but normally use the Keen knuckles which I have adapted to fit in the NEM socket as my standard inter-coach coupling. By the way, the missing door knob on the right hand door is prototypical - it was an emergency exit! the vent to the right of the middle door (which does say 'private' and has a security grille behind it) is a Mk1 toilet ventilator cut down and thinned.

 

I think I now have enough catering vehicles so will be finishing off the Bulleids and will then possibly try something different for a change. I picked up some second hand milk tanks at the Southampton Exhibition the other day and have bought a couple of Rumney Models platform ladder sets to add some variety to a milk tank train I want to model.

 

Thanks to all who gave help and encouragement during these builds - it gave me the confidence to finish them!

 

Tony 

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Top Class job there Tony. 

I wonder if there is a way I could arrange with you (payment included of course) to get some of your paint 'mix' from that Trader sent up here. Post won't take cans I don't think but I'm not sure?

Phil

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finally finished the 2 coach Bulleid 'R' set (the one that Bachmann have just announced!)

 

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It is for a fellow club member so I have left it with the standard Hornby couplings on which leaves a large gap between the two coaches.

 

I am still working up the courage to tackle the ladders for the milk tanks so have started the Maunsell dia 2007 open 2nd for which I purchased sides from Mousa Models at the same time as the buffet. These coaches were used as additional buffet seating when required and often ran as pairs with either a buffet or restaurant coach. I found it a bit confusing at first as this diagram actually covers two types of body side but the Mousa sides are for the last batch (S1410 -S1450) which lasted quite late as far as Maunsell coaches were concerned (c '63) and often appeared on West of England services according to published sources.

 

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Method of construction is similar to the buffet, except I have had to use the full 2 Ex-Kirk sides. The windows on the Kirk sides were opened out to provide the recesses for glazing and the body filed to accept the brass sides with a small amount of filler to form the curve between the sides and the end doors. One difficulty has been that the ventilators are very close to the gutter line which means there is not much material to make a strong joint with the roof. I will be using the 'dragons teeth' method to reinforce the joint by attaching strips of plasticard to the roof with poly glue, allowing to fully set before trying to attach the sides. Another slight problem is that the Mousa sides had a hole etched above the toilet windows where the prototype photos seem to show a double vent bonnet similar to that on the Hornby open 2nd; I filled the hole then made the bonnets from small strips of plasticard. The donor Hornby Maunsell is a corridor 2nd which is not ideal as the toilet tanks and roof furniture are different and it would have been a much easier conversion to use a Hornby Maunsell open 2nd as a donor but they are quite difficult to find (and expensive!) so I have used what I had to hand.

 

Hopefully this one coach that will not be announced in the near future by the major manufacturers!

 

Tony

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  • 1 month later...

The long gap in progress was due to not being able to spray outside. So while I waiting for things to improve I worked on some milk tanks and a loco repaint for a fellow club member.

 

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I also took the opportunity to add the curtains to the buffet saloon which I previously forgot.

 

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I hope you have enjoyed this thread.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

Having purchased several ex Southern Pride Bulleid coaches in need of renovation and/or detailing from a well known second hand site which I used them to make up a 7 coach set 80 I have now started my next coach project.

 

Using a voucher from my local model shop my son gave me for my birthday I purchased one of the excellent Hornby Maunsell restaurant coaches. I was surprised to note that the two versions of livery currently released by Hornby actually also represent different diagrams of the Maunsell restaurant first, with slightly different window layouts. The BR version represents the earlier build dia 2651 of which I have already built several examples, but the Southern liveried one is a dia 2656 with the aforementioned different window and ventilator arrangement. The roof and underframe details are the same for both coaches.

 

Needless to say, having brought my treasured purchase home the first thing I have done is to take it to bits!  The body came off quite easily being of recent manufacture likewise I was able to carefully ease the window strips out using a scalpel. I am not a fan of the curtains in the Hornby coach, nor the printed internal hand rails, so both have now been removed using meths, cotton buds and cocktail sticks.

 

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It is my intention to repaint the coach then pair it with a Kirk sided open 2nd (using a Hornby Maunsell donor) so that hopefully they will match from an external paint perspective. I intend to renumber the RF as S8000S, as according to the published records, 7869 was converted to a buffet coach in the 1950's so not suitable for my early 60's era. One thing I am not certain about is whether this coach was converted to propane as per the mike King drawings - can anyone clarify?

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

The open 2nd coach has now been constructed, along the lines of the previous models, interiors made and detailed and the coaches sprayed (or re-sprayed in the case of the kitchen car). Hopefully the following pictures will demonstrate the finished articles:

 

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The last picture demonstrates the comparison to the matt BR green used by Hornby, as well as the effect of the different curtains. I have also removed the (nicely moulded) gas tanks and replaced them with propane boxes.

 

My next project is probably a 6 coach Bournemouth set, using Bill Bedford sides, Hachette donor coaches and Southern Pride and Comet detailing components. A fellow club member is also constructing a set using a slightly different method; if there is interest I am sure we could make a joint thread on the constructions.

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  • 2 months later...

 45238508435_eb220c8d6c_b.jpg

 

I'm sorry to thread hijack - You seem to know your stuff about kitchen cars, Could you possibly tell me if the position of the lettering is correct on this example? Also what a suitable number would be, and what sets it/they ran in?

 

Kind regards

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 45238508435_eb220c8d6c_b.jpg

 

I'm sorry to thread hijack - You seem to know your stuff about kitchen cars, Could you possibly tell me if the position of the lettering is correct on this example? Also what a suitable number would be, and what sets it/they ran in?

 

Kind regards

I have been looking for an answer to this same question since I acquired a kitchen/diner. No one on RMWEB or even SEMG could give me a definitive documented answer. It appears that the Southern prioritized repainting the diners into malachite 1946-7 as diner service was restored to match new Bulleid coaches. 

 

 

4/12/18 Still no real answer ion subsequent replies to this thread. 

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Jack,

 

I presume the lettering is correct for Southern livery but I am not an expert on that period as I model 1960-62. From what I have read these coaches were not used much (if at all) during WWII and as many of them were converted in the early '50's to buffet vehicles of several configurations the whole subject is a minefield. Some coaches also had slightly different roof detail due to variants of cooking facilities. The Hornby Southern liveried model (which was numbered 7869) I repainted I renumbered to S8000S as the Hornby coach was one of the buffet conversions, but without photographic evidence of both sides of the coach for the period you are modelling it is difficult to be sure! The BR liveried restaurant has a slightly different window arrangement and therefore carries different coach numbers (as had been discussed elsewhere on a Hornby thread).

 

As far as I am aware the main use for these restaurants post war was on the WoE and various cross-country services as they were largely displaced from the Waterloo - Bournemouth expresses by the Bulleid 6 car sets.

 

Whatever duty you wish to portray one important feature was that they were invariably paired with an open third coach for 3rd class diners - usually latterly either Maunsell dia 2007 or 2005 (Hornby have just re-released the latter in SR livery I believe).

 

My main source of information came from 'Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock by David Gould from The Oakwood Press (not sure of the current availability). It also includes quite a comprehensive selection on the pre-war dining sets and routes. Also Chris Knowles Thomas of this parish is also very knowledgeable as is Phil (Mallard 60022) above and both have helped me in the past.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tony

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Jack,

 

I presume the lettering is correct for Southern livery but I am not an expert on that period as I model 1960-62. From what I have read these coaches were not used much (if at all) during WWII and as many of them were converted in the early '50's to buffet vehicles of several configurations the whole subject is a minefield. Some coaches also had slightly different roof detail due to variants of cooking facilities. The Hornby Southern liveried model (which was numbered 7869) I repainted I renumbered to S8000S as the Hornby coach was one of the buffet conversions, but without photographic evidence of both sides of the coach for the period you are modelling it is difficult to be sure! The BR liveried restaurant has a slightly different window arrangement and therefore carries different coach numbers (as had been discussed elsewhere on a Hornby thread).

 

As far as I am aware the main use for these restaurants post war was on the WoE and various cross-country services as they were largely displaced from the Waterloo - Bournemouth expresses by the Bulleid 6 car sets.

 

Whatever duty you wish to portray one important feature was that they were invariably paired with an open third coach for 3rd class diners - usually latterly either Maunsell dia 2007 or 2005 (Hornby have just re-released the latter in SR livery I believe).

 

My main source of information came from 'Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock by David Gould from The Oakwood Press (not sure of the current availability). It also includes quite a comprehensive selection on the pre-war dining sets and routes. Also Chris Knowles Thomas of this parish is also very knowledgeable as is Phil (Mallard 60022) above and both have helped me in the past.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tony

 

Blimey Tony, that's kind of you as I know 'nuffink' really. I like the idea of doing S8000S and I had not even noticed that one!

You are spot on re the Southern application as the coaches hardly had any use in that livery and were not, as far as can be observed from WTT/Stock records, used during and just after the 2nd war. What is such fun is the investigation of the various Diagrams one can achieve without hardly even altering the outside of these coaches as RTR and then, more complicated I suppose, the opportunity to do some hacking or side replacement using Mousa Models stuff to create several other Diagrams. Great fun that!

What is the biggest challenge is the arrangement of roof fittings.............

As always, lovely coach work Tony. Inspirational. How's the Bournemouth stock getting on BTW?

Phil

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Blimey Tony, that's kind of you as I know 'nuffink' really. I like the idea of doing S8000S and I had not even noticed that one!

You are spot on re the Southern application as the coaches hardly had any use in that livery and were not, as far as can be observed from WTT/Stock records, used during and just after the 2nd war. What is such fun is the investigation of the various Diagrams one can achieve without hardly even altering the outside of these coaches as RTR and then, more complicated I suppose, the opportunity to do some hacking or side replacement using Mousa Models stuff to create several other Diagrams. Great fun that!

What is the biggest challenge is the arrangement of roof fittings.............

As always, lovely coach work Tony. Inspirational. How's the Bournemouth stock getting on BTW?

Phil

 

Blimey Tony, that's kind of you as I know 'nuffink' really. I like the idea of doing S8000S and I had not even noticed that one!

You are spot on re the Southern application as the coaches hardly had any use in that livery and were not, as far as can be observed from WTT/Stock records, used during and just after the 2nd war. What is such fun is the investigation of the various Diagrams one can achieve without hardly even altering the outside of these coaches as RTR and then, more complicated I suppose, the opportunity to do some hacking or side replacement using Mousa Models stuff to create several other Diagrams. Great fun that!

What is the biggest challenge is the arrangement of roof fittings.............

As always, lovely coach work Tony. Inspirational. How's the Bournemouth stock getting on BTW?

Phil

There are lots of 'minor' variations which affect which numbers are suitable, Jack, but the most obvious are the windows in the kitchen area.  and of course your picture is of the corridor side!  So before opining further have you repainted Hornby's BR version or their Maunsell liveried example?

 

Chris KT

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Blimey Tony, that's kind of you as I know 'nuffink' really. I like the idea of doing S8000S and I had not even noticed that one!

You are spot on re the Southern application as the coaches hardly had any use in that livery and were not, as far as can be observed from WTT/Stock records, used during and just after the 2nd war. What is such fun is the investigation of the various Diagrams one can achieve without hardly even altering the outside of these coaches as RTR and then, more complicated I suppose, the opportunity to do some hacking or side replacement using Mousa Models stuff to create several other Diagrams. Great fun that!

What is the biggest challenge is the arrangement of roof fittings.............

As always, lovely coach work Tony. Inspirational. How's the Bournemouth stock getting on BTW?

Phil

What do I know eh? Talking out of my #### as usual.

Mr King suggests:

from 1942 just 4 workings remained &  these ceased in April 1944; on the Exeter route only.

By 1946 most RCs had been out of use for some time..........conversion was adopted. rather than new build.

The Conversions are shown in a Table on page 102 of King as you probably know. No indication of livery for 1947! However, your lettering could possibly be about 2/3rds a letter higher up the side with the space below the windows being about half the 'height' of the letters by the look of the King diagram on page 95. However a photo of a car in 1960 has the lettering where you have it! (page 96)

If you do not have Mike KIng's An Illustrated History of SOUTHERN COACHES, then I could PM you pics of what I'm on about.

Apologies,

Phil 

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Slow progress is being made on the Bulleid Bournemouth coach sets, mainly as I have been diverted to try and make a REP EMU for our club layout. However that has stalled for the moment so today I have made a start on the seats for the RCO and kitchen coaches. I have used Southern Pride seats which were the best I could find to adapt to the 'loose' chairs in these coaches. They do however need quite a bit of modification; cutting off the headrest and arms, then shaping the cushions to a better profile. The only problem is there are 168 of them on the three sets! Managed about 30 today but my fingers are now too sore so will have to do a few each day I think.

 

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The basic construction of the sets is now complete, and after fitting these seats with attendant tables, lamps etc I will start on the underframe details.

 

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I hope this build is of interest and welcome any comments.

 

Tony

 

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Slow progress is being made on the Bulleid Bournemouth coach sets, mainly as I have been diverted to try and make a REP EMU for our club layout. However that has stalled for the moment so today I have made a start on the seats for the RCO and kitchen coaches. I have used Southern Pride seats which were the best I could find to adapt to the 'loose' chairs in these coaches. They do however need quite a bit of modification; cutting off the headrest and arms, then shaping the cushions to a better profile. The only problem is there are 168 of them on the three sets! Managed about 30 today but my fingers are now too sore so will have to do a few each day I think.

 

attachicon.gifDSCF2705.JPG

 

The basic construction of the sets is now complete, and after fitting these seats with attendant tables, lamps etc I will start on the underframe details.

 

attachicon.gifDSCF2706.JPG

 

I hope this build is of interest and welcome any comments.

 

Tony

Great work as usual, Tony.  Southern Pride do a loose "Dining Car Chair", ref P38, which does not have arms.  But perhaps it doesn't suit your purpose in other respects? 

 

Chris KT

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Chris

 

The Southern Pride P38 chairs are very good but I feel they resemble the more modern type of dining chair fitted to BR stock. We used to have a lot of the older SR chairs around the offices where the backs flare in the opposite direction and in my opinion look quite different when viewed through the large Bulleid windows. As I spend quite a bit of time on the interiors anyway I might a well go the whole hog!

 

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Tony

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