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Southern Region Coaches from my Workbench


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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for the kind comments.

 

I have now been able to add all the external transfers to the coach sets. Coach and set numbers are waterslide from CCT with the remainder being Methfix. I prefer the latter as they do not need varnish protection in normal handling but have given up trying to apply individual coach numbers using Methfix as I find it very difficult to get them evenly spaced and in a line.

 

Apart from testing and final fettling the sets are now complete:

DSCF3051.JPG.4261e59ec39b1d297d1023bcbf3fd96b.JPGDSCF3052.JPG.de0fa4d26991c643022f72a92f948561.JPGDSCF3053.JPG.1c9147e970ba64782377b75c752c2264.JPGDSCF3054.JPG.3bb72c71ab1d422a89399d0b64cc9f4e.JPGDSCF3055.JPG.136fc4c09f9405a989e4108746e88b5a.JPG

 

I seem to have forgotten the Dining Trailer First but there are pictures of this vehicle on preceding pages of this post.

 

In due course I will be selling these sets to recoup costs as I already have one set previously constructed for use on the clubs Redbridge layout.

 

I am looking forward to starting some different projects as I have had enough of coaches for a while!

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  • 145 Squadron changed the title to Southern Region Coaches from my Workbench

During lockdown 1 & 2 I have dusted off an old set of 247 Development etches for ex-Southern Ironclad pull-push conversions that I have had in my store cupboard for several years. Coincidentally Mallard60022 of this parish was also embarking on one of the same sets so I was initially posting on his thread, but now rather than clogging his thread up with my ramblings I have added my progress to my existing Southern Region coach building thread here.

 

The bits I had assembled over the years consisted of the brass etches for the two coaches, an etch with the ends and some other details, plus two pairs of Ashford 9' VS cast bogies all from the then 247 Developments proprietor (since changed). Although the bogies are not currently available similar etches are available I believe from Bill Bedford's Mousa Models range.

 

For reference I have used King's Southern Pull-Push coaches and Weddell's LSWR Coaches books, both of which have plans for this stock, plus various picture books. I have noted as I have progressed that some details do not agree between the two reference books or with available pictures. In cases of this I have used the picture references where possible.

 

Construction of these coaches has been a new experience for me as previously all my coaches have been using brass or plastic coach sides grafted onto suitable donor vehicles, using mainly glue to hold the various bits together; this time I would have to solder the main coach components together as well as having to allow for the peculiarity of these coaches in that the luggage portion of both coaches recess to allow for a lookout window in the end duckets. All of this would require some very careful bending.  

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Initial work was to solder the bogie frames together with some Romford 14mm wheels from the stock box. I fitted top hat brass bearings which necessitated having to turn down the axles of the wheelsets as they were now too long for the bogie width. Also complicated by the fact that when I opened the bogie packs I found that one bogie had an 8' stretcher instead of the 9' sides!

 

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Photo above shows the completed bogies with a standard 8' Southern bogie for comparison.

 

Next I assembled the other components I had amassed ready to start the rest of the construction.

DSCF3151.JPG.d5e2e9f0a9bc60a41d3cd764bb315155.JPG

 

For the chassis I could not find a suitable donor in my various spares so constructed the basic shape from 0.5mm and 0.75mm plastic sheet.

 

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The etched sides and ends were then carefully soldered together, having bent in the tumblehome and added the droplights first. Strengthening strips of plasticard were then added to the top of the etches and plastic bulkheads where the coaches bend in towards the duckets, all secured with Evo-stick. This is also to give a strong joint with the plastic roofs, which are cut down Ex-Kirk Maunsell 'reprofiled'. Outer end body details were added from the etch or scrap brass where not supplied. Interior details were built up from plasticard with Southern Pride compartment sides and ex-Kirk kit seats.

 

DSCF3166.JPG.bf939d78ae09f046178be6d5d595fee5.JPG

 

Because of the need to be able to separate the body and chassis and to fit the existing bulkheads it was necessary to have some interesting arrangements whereby some of the seats are fixed to the body and some to the chassis!

 

So this is the current state of play with a start now being made on the underframe details.

 

DSCF3164.JPG.a3667f34665de54bae5da3b855891f0c.JPG 

Tony

DSCF3165.JPG

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Damn fine job matey. Love the interiors.

Good job I have you as the Tutor as I will be floundering with this build, despite looking forward to the challenges.  As you know I am going to try Worsley Works 57' underframes; that may be 'fun'! The sides are, as you mention, from Mousa Models. As for the roof....that will be a challenge. The Bogies may have to be fettled from Roxey or similar. At a push it will just have Standard SR Bogies!!!!!

On a completely different note, when you have built you Bulleids, have you ever done any with the side 'ribbing' used to strengthen them and if so, what did you use for the strip(s)? Thanks.

P

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Phil,

 

Good to hear you are having a go too - I found a lot of issues with the etches; when soldering the coaches together start with the small ducket side widows to the ducket sides, then this assembly soldered to the ends with the main sides soldered on last using the tabs on the duckets to locate. The end etches are too long for the formed sides and I had to cut about 0.5mm from the bottom of each end before assembly. The etched steps are fine for the brake composite but there is insufficient for the brake third end and there are no locating slots anyway. The large central steps and lamp irons on both coach ends I fabricated out of scrap brass etch; The positioning of the driving and windows are incorrect according to the drawings and pictures but I cannot alter that. I have no experience of the Worsley Works underframes so will look forward to your commentary on them, when received. Today I scratch built the 6 battery boxes for the two vehicles (I could not find any suitable ones in my stock boxes to match the drawings) and added the turnbuckle trusses from wire and split pins to one vehicle.

 

In answer to your query about the 'ribbing' on the Bulleid coaches, I have added this to many of my vehicles, and it can be seen in the pictures of the Bournemouth set above; they are formed from the crepe tape that Comet (now Wizard) sells as 'roof ribbing' which is very fine and self adhesive on a reel. I add them to the brass sides just before priming paint. Be warned if you do not paint the sides fairly quickly after you add the tape it will curl up off the vehicle due to the different material temperature coefficients! Note that not all vehicles had the reinforcement due to some re-sheeting in later overhauls - photo reference is required. Also, an obvious point, but the reinforcement does not cover the doors, so lay the strip in one continuous line, then when stuck down cut the doors at the etched edges with a scalpel and peel of this section.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Tony     

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Great tip about the sequence there Tony. That sort of thing so helps when folk are struggling.

The Worsley 57' UF's could have been Comet '57' UF's!  I suspect your way with the Plasticard could be more versatile if hacking is necessary.

The Comet Tape is good. I had considered using some sort of plastic half rod but I haven't looked to see if it exists yet!!!! Sort of thing I'd look for at a decent MR Show.

Phil

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  • 1 month later...

6 weeks on and quite a few hours at the workbench have resulted in the Ironclad pull push set now being completed awaiting paint.

 

DSCF3186.JPG.b7d8efd2cb84cbc78c59ad478e40ca06.JPG

 

A lot of fettling was required to enable the set to be pushed around sub 3' curves due to the length of the buffers leading to buffer locking. In the end I used a fixed brass bar between the two coaches, sprung to centralise, fitting to a hole in the other buffer beam. Coaches can still be more closely coupled for static display. The spare cut down Kirk plastic roofs were reshaped, shortened then had strips of 0.75mm plastic glued to deepen them slightly. These were then securely glued to the the coach sides plastic fillets previously added; they were then left for several days to dry off thoroughly. Commode handles (ex Hornby Maunsells) will be fitted after painting and glazing. Coach end details were taken from prototype photos or drawings (which do not always agree!) but care was necessary as some details are individual to different sets or to a period of time. This will be set 383 which lasted until the end of 1962.

 

Interiors have been painted, and bulkhead details added but passengers have still to be included.

 

DSCF3182.JPG.16ee57b047144c037c70db26ff74c664.JPG

 

This is the inner brake coach end with details added from wire, plasticard and cast pipes.

 

DSCF3184.JPG.f8c981c1085ec262ba9c87ea88741ddf.JPG

 

Body is attached to the chassis by 6 self tapping screws, 4 in the ends with 2 in the approximate middle of the coach - these proved difficult as they required plasticard brackets superglued to the inside of the brass sides for support; they are not noticeable in the completed coach.

 

Tony

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  • 1 month later...

A couple of fairly quick projects recently; following the release of the latest EFE versions of the Gate Stock I dug out my Kernow BR green version. Following the info from other modellers on this site (for which many thanks), plus the details in Weddell's LSWR Coaches book I moved all the underframe equipment to the correct sides on the driving trailer, made the extra interior partition, painted and fitted passengers and curtains. I also reduced the width of the bogie footboards which made a big difference to the appearance.

 

DSCF3188.JPG.bd70d20472d94206aefe66ae2ea4fa87.JPGDSCF3191.JPG.e184021b6fb6345295d417b35cb34eaf.JPG

 

I also recently purchased the latest Hornby Mk1 RB in BR green. This coach is very good value for money but needless to say I could not resist taking it apart and making some changes! For inspiration I used an excellent prototype photo in Parkin's Mk1 Coaches book.

 

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Although most of these coaches seem to have run with Commonwealth bogies initially, the photo of S1720 shows it fitted with Mk2 bogies in 1962, which is my modelling period, so I duly fitted some modified Mk1 bogies from the stock box. I also fitted cams to move the couplings from the bogie to the coach underside at the same time to enable close coupling with my other stock. Internally I changed the counter arrangement to suit the earlier layout, removed the seats and replaced them with Southern Pride seats as I could not get passengers to fir the original moulding.  Curtains, reducing the 'ribbing' on the coach roof, bogie step boards and wire replacement end details completed the job.  The Hornby green is slightly lighter than my Bulleid stock but not enough to warrant a body repaint. I can now substitute this coach for my Bulleid buffet coach in the 6 car set if I wish to run it as a post 1962 version.

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10 minutes ago, 145 Squadron said:

I also fitted cams to move the couplings from the bogie to the coach underside at the same time to enable close coupling with my other stock.


Which cams did you use, and how much modification is required to complete this modification?

I've avoided Hornby's latest Mk1s (despite them doing several variants Bachmann don't do that I'd be interested in having) precisely because they don't have close coupling, and one non-close-coupled coach in a close-coupled rake stands out like a sore thumb.

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As I wanted to change the bogies anyway I thought I would have a look to see how much work would be involved in fitting a set of cams; I have quite a few different spares from various makes in my spares box (never throw anything away!). I found two basic types, one which fits through a hole in the underframe to retain the front end, and the other which engages in a groove behind the buffer beam. I used some examples of the latter which came from the Kernow Gate Stock which I had just worked on (I fitted screw couplings to the outer ends) as they also had a rounded end to fit against the central boss of the Hornby bogie fixing. I do not know if they are available as a spare but might be worth an enquiry to EFE. 

 

DSCF3198.JPG.5c465f348460df4c052f6bab8bd74374.JPG 

I measured the shape of the retaining section required behind the buffer beam, then made two pieces of 0.75mm plasticard one slightly overlapping the other, and glued them to the underframe so that the cam fitted snugly against the bogie boss in the straight ahead position, but could move outwards as it moves from side to side. To retain the spring I glued a small plasticard square in the old bogie pivot slot and when dry superglued a small retaining hook into the block, checking it did not foul the bogie. The bogie itself was sufficient to retain the cam in position but bear in mind I was not using the original Hornby bogies (they were Mk1's from the cheapo China Bachmann copies from the magazine some time ago, of which I have dozens!). The use of these other bogies also necessitated having to make the recesses in the underframe shown above, which you will presumably not have to do with the originals.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Tony 

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On 20/01/2021 at 19:40, 145 Squadron said:

6 weeks on and quite a few hours at the workbench have resulted in the Ironclad pull push set now being completed awaiting paint.

 

DSCF3186.JPG.b7d8efd2cb84cbc78c59ad478e40ca06.JPG

 

A lot of fettling was required to enable the set to be pushed around sub 3' curves due to the length of the buffers leading to buffer locking. In the end I used a fixed brass bar between the two coaches, sprung to centralise, fitting to a hole in the other buffer beam. Coaches can still be more closely coupled for static display. The spare cut down Kirk plastic roofs were reshaped, shortened then had strips of 0.75mm plastic glued to deepen them slightly. These were then securely glued to the the coach sides plastic fillets previously added; they were then left for several days to dry off thoroughly. Commode handles (ex Hornby Maunsells) will be fitted after painting and glazing. Coach end details were taken from prototype photos or drawings (which do not always agree!) but care was necessary as some details are individual to different sets or to a period of time. This will be set 383 which lasted until the end of 1962.

 

Interiors have been painted, and bulkhead details added but passengers have still to be included.

 

DSCF3182.JPG.16ee57b047144c037c70db26ff74c664.JPG

 

This is the inner brake coach end with details added from wire, plasticard and cast pipes.

 

DSCF3184.JPG.f8c981c1085ec262ba9c87ea88741ddf.JPG

 

Body is attached to the chassis by 6 self tapping screws, 4 in the ends with 2 in the approximate middle of the coach - these proved difficult as they required plasticard brackets superglued to the inside of the brass sides for support; they are not noticeable in the completed coach.

 

Tony

I knew if I waited a few weeks you would have finished yours so that I can just admire and learn from your experiences of fettling; damn fine build old bean.

Philth.

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If you have the time I would be very grateful if you could put links of these three Projects over on my Layout thread or tell me how to do it if I may and that saves you time.

All the best and stay safe.

P

 

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Just now, 145 Squadron said:

Sorry Phil I am a bit of a luddite when it comes to technology - I don't even own a mobile phone (which causes me no end of trouble these days!)

 

Tony

Sorry I meant from your thread to mine. However if you don't mind I will copy your post address from the Browser box and post them over if that's OK? I really don't want to lose them in the huge archive that is RM.

Acknowledged of course.

P

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Tony, I’ve just found your thread thanks to Ducky’s links.

There is some seriously impressive modelling here. 
In particular, the work you put into the interiors is stunning and it is encouraging me to raise my game in this area.

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  • 4 weeks later...
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Hi Tony,

 

At the end of my modelling career, I have chosen to return to building coaches - a pair of Ironclads as a foil to the EFE Gate Set.

 

How do you rate the 247 Kit? To help me, I have just found a copy of Stephen Williams Pt2 in which he tackles an Ironclad but no clue to its origins. Twenty odd years ago I had some fun with a Bill Bedford kit of the same that had been etched in a mirror image, not too much of a task to re-scribe all the doors but as the dual companions of COPD andParkinsons really begin to bite, I seek an easier (and quicker) path.

 

Thanks and StaySafe

 

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Hello Jack,

 

I do not have a copy of the Stephen Williams Pt2 so cannot comment on his build.

 

The 247 kit is no longer available, but looking at Mallard's Bill Bedford etches they would seem to be identical (not sure they are available at the moment either). I found a few discrepancies when comparing the etches to the drawings in King's Southern Pull-Push coaches and Weddell's LSWR Coaches books notably the positioning of the driving end windows which caused some problems with end details but not the kind of problems you describe. Most of the other issues I have described in the build above. Soldering up the end duckets I struggled to keep everything square, with lots of different angles and small pieces involved - using the Phoenix cast duckets might be an easier route. In fact I think Phoenix do sides for these coaches but you need to scribe the doors on the aluminium sides I think; I have no experience of building one of this manufacture so cannot advise, but I know Chris Knowles-Thomas does post on this website and may be able to comment on suitability and availability of the the Phoenix sides and parts.

 

An alternative suggestion is if you know someone with 3D printing skills - not something I possess I'm afraid. Possibly a Hornby Maunsell underframe could be cut down to suit although the plasticard construction was perhaps the easiest part of the build.

 

In addition to the sides you will need to source a lot of the rest of the kit; roof, bogies (Ashford 9' bogies do not seem to be available from any manufacturer currently) and underframe. I think a lot of the bits could be sourced in the Phoenix range from the Southern Railway Group.

 

Not sure if I have answered your question - overall these coaches were certainly not the easiest build but I enjoyed the challenge!

 

Perhaps an ex-SECR 100 seater might be a better choice and could run with you Gate Stock?

 

DSCF1741.JPG.0984f837aa749929fcaf33c033bf7304.JPG

 

Regards

 

Tony

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Hi Tony,

 

Thank for responding, if Bill’s etches are no longer available (not on his website), I have a couple of original GF suburbans and all Terry Gough’s RM articles. Maybe some very careful cutting and shutting with scratchbuilt ends, copying a very useful method on RMweb using a Japanese COP saw and mitre box. The details from Comet and Roxey that were unavailable in 1966 will come in very use.
 

Finally, Worsley Works offers a kit for set 31 which replaces the Blacksmith Kit that I built many, many years ago (see attached). Maybe, if an Ironclad cannot be made, another attempt to build set 31, who knows?

 

Above all, thanks

 

1FC71738-1960-4A1B-939C-8D2150FA9DE0.jpeg.83e868b210c8fb35d19156c840129408.jpeg

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

Hi Tony,

 

Thank for responding, if Bill’s etches are no longer available (not on his website), I have a couple of original GF suburbans and all Terry Gough’s RM articles. Maybe some very careful cutting and shutting with scratchbuilt ends, copying a very useful method on RMweb using a Japanese COP saw and mitre box. The details from Comet and Roxey that were unavailable in 1966 will come in very use.
 

Finally, Worsley Works offers a kit for set 31 which replaces the Blacksmith Kit that I built many, many years ago (see attached). Maybe, if an Ironclad cannot be made, another attempt to build set 31, who knows?

 

Above all, thanks

 

1FC71738-1960-4A1B-939C-8D2150FA9DE0.jpeg.83e868b210c8fb35d19156c840129408.jpeg

 

 

 

 

Bill has said he temporarily removed some items, including coach sides, from his website, due to supply difficulties arising from the pandemic and will add them again once he is able to fulfill orders

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Tony,

 

What colour do you intend to paint the Ironclads? The only images and film clips* I can find are b&w, I can only presume both non-corridor red and unlined malachite in the early ‘50s after they were rebuilt.

 

StaySafe

 

*Lovely clip of 383 at Yeovil Junction in ‘50 powered by an unlined black M7 with British Railways on the tank, the set livery looked too dark to be red. 

 

 

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The initial liveries of sets 381-385 when converted to Pull-Push were:-

 

381  12/1948  Malachite

382  7/1949    Lined Crimson

383  10/1948  Malachite

384  6/1949    Lined Crimson

385  3/1952    plain Crimson

 

Chris KT

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My chosen modelling period is c1962, by which time, as Mike king states in his Southern Pull-Push Stock book 4 of the 5 (set 382 withdrawn 1959 following fire damage) had been repainted in BR (SR) green. There are a couple of colour pictures in Michael Welch's Southern Coaches in Colour showing set 383 in green with a good finish. There is also a picture of set 384 in crimson in 1960 in the same book so I would guess they had been repainted at overhaul in the early '60s. My set will be 383 as there are some detail differences between sets, so will be BR (SR) green, the same as the Bulleid stock. I have not done so yet as I was diverted into making up my stock (4) of Kemilway chassis/Hornby bodies in my store cupboard for 40+ years!

 

Regards

 

Tony

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