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4mm/OO 4-wheel or 6-wheel Coaches & wagons - kits etc. up to 1920


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I see! Was that roof shape something that was particular only to the GWR then?

 

No, in fact those pictures were both LSWR examples, but they were to hand.

 

The Triang cut and shuts I pictured use roofs from the Ratio Midland suburban coaches as oppose to the GW profile clerestory roofs. You could do the same with the Ratio 4-wheelers.  For £4 or so, Peco/Ratio will sell you a sprue from the Midland Suburban coach kits that includes roofs, ends and roof fittings, so you could replace the GW ends on the 4-wheel kits.

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If you're feeling flush, how about some ex-MDR 4-wheeled coaches? When the MDR electrified in 1905 they sold of a lot of these trains. If you don't like the price pf the prints, they would be trivial to scratch-build, having square-cornered mouldings and flat sides.

 

They're 3D printed, aren't they? I've never had anything to do with 3D printing but the last time I saw some 3D printed models up close the surface looked quite rough. Is this the case with these, do you know?

 

I have a loco made by the same person in the same material. The finish is far from smooth, but my be fixable with some filler primer. I personally am not going to try as it is good enough for me but someone else might want too.

 

Gary

 

post-22762-0-39040200-1514891236_thumb.jpg

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I have a loco made by the same person in the same material. The finish is far from smooth, but my be fixable with some filler primer. I personally am not going to try as it is good enough for me but someone else might want too.

 

Gary

 

attachicon.gif2018-01-02 11.05.05.jpg

Is that a Millwall Dock Co. Manning Wardle?

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Is that a Millwall Dock Co. Manning Wardle?

 

Yes it is! It is a rather nice kit, it was a birthday present from the misses

 

It is available here:

 

Loco Body and Chassis: https://www.shapeways.com/product/XCQBT4X6D/pla-millwall-extension-railway-2-4-0t-kit?optionId=56769234

 

Coupling Rods: https://www.shapeways.com/product/2PMN6HL3A/millwall-tank-rods?optionId=57232231

 

Gary

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Are the frames also 3D printed? I guess it weighs next to nothing, so are the side tanks at least hollow to allow some lead weights to be fitted?

 

More about coaches...

 

I am currently converting one of the Thomas the tank engine red coaches, that were shown on the previous page, so, obviously, it is devoid of any detailing and I am wondering whether coaches that are within the scope of my original question would have gas lighting, or oil lamps? I need to know whether or not to add pipes on the roof and gas tanks underneath.

 

Also, when did it become a legal requirement for passenger stock to have a continuous automatic brake and did this also apply to light railways at the same time, or later? I need to know whether or not to fit vacuum brake gear and, of course, this could also affect the locomotives.

 

If (or at a time before it was a requirement) they didn't have automatic brakes, would coaches other than brake coaches have hand brakes, and if so, how did they work - lever as on a wagon, or a wheel?

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Are the frames also 3D printed? I guess it weighs next to nothing, so are the side tanks at least hollow to allow some lead weights to be fitted?

 

More about coaches...

 

I am currently converting one of the Thomas the tank engine red coaches, that were shown on the previous page, so, obviously, it is devoid of any detailing and I am wondering whether coaches that are within the scope of my original question would have gas lighting, or oil lamps? I need to know whether or not to add pipes on the roof and gas tanks underneath.

 

Also, when did it become a legal requirement for passenger stock to have a continuous automatic brake and did this also apply to light railways at the same time, or later? I need to know whether or not to fit vacuum brake gear and, of course, this could also affect the locomotives.

 

If (or at a time before it was a requirement) they didn't have automatic brakes, would coaches other than brake coaches have hand brakes, and if so, how did they work - lever as on a wagon, or a wheel?

 

Hi,

The legal requirement for through braking was in the 1889 Railway Act although companies had a time period to comply.  The Cambrian being a poor railway said it had complied by 1895 but in fact ran two mixed trains a day, at least, that had no brakes in the coaching stock, which could well have been at the back behind the wagons.  (There is an image of a train on Barmouth Bridge from about 1860 like that.)  I assume that it would also apply to light railways.  I think someone mentioned in the last week or so that the Bishops Castle Railway never had through brakes.

 

Trains of coaches that did not have through braking would have only had brakes in the brake coach so they would have basically been on loose couplings like wagons.  The drawings I have seen have had the brakes applied by a wheel in the guards compartment.

 

I am sure others with more knowledge will comment further.

 

Lighting:  The coaches would have probably been built, if they were earlier than say 1890 with oil lamps.  If the company thought that the economic life of the coach was such that when gas lights came in then they may well have had them replaced.  Many old 4 wheel coaches went to the scrapyard with oil lighting.  It is likely that if you have a light railway that has bought second hand then it would have oil lamps. 

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........... I am wondering whether coaches that are within the scope of my original question would have gas lighting, or oil lamps? I need to know whether or not to add pipes on the roof and gas tanks underneath.

According to Mike Willams' book 'Caledonian Railway Carriages', Alexander Allan was experimenting with gas lighting on the SCR in 1862 and consideration was given to adopting gas lighting in the late 1870's, but it wasn't until 1881 the a tender was accepted for fitting gas lighting to existing stock.  Two sets of oil lit stock were still rostered in 1921.

 

Also, when did it become a legal requirement for passenger stock to have a continuous automatic brake and did this also apply to light railways at the same time, or later? I need to know whether or not to fit vacuum brake gear and, of course, this could also affect the locomotives.

The same books states that The Railway Returns (Continuous Brakes Act) of 1878 required companies to make six-monthly returns detailing the types of brakes in use, this being designed to put pressure on companies to adopt continuous brakes, but it wasn't until The Regulation of Railways Act in 1889 that companies had to 'provide for and use on all passenger trains continuous brakes; the brakes must be instantaneous in action; self applying in the event of any failure in continuity; capable of being applied to every vehicle in the train; and in regular use in daily working.  This of course spelled the end of the likes of the simple vacuum brake and the Clark-Webb chain brake.

 

Can't help with the types of handbrake on early non-brake vehicles I'm afraid.

 

HTH.

 

Jim

 

Edited to say sorry, Chris.  Our posts crossed.

Edited by Caley Jim
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According to Mike Willams' book 'Caledonian Railway Carriages', Alexander Allan was experimenting with gas lighting on the SCR in 1862 and consideration was given to adopting gas lighting in the late 1870's, but it wasn't until 1881 the a tender was accepted for fitting gas lighting to existing stock.  Two sets of oil lit stock were still rostered in 1921.

 

The same books states that The Railway Returns (Continuous Brakes Act) of 1878 required companies to make six-monthly returns detailing the types of brakes in use, this being designed to put pressure on companies to adopt continuous brakes, but it wasn't until The Regulation of Railways Act in 1889 that companies had to 'provide for and use on all passenger trains continuous brakes; the brakes must be instantaneous in action; self applying in the event of any failure in continuity; capable of being applied to every vehicle in the train; and in regular use in daily working.  This of course spelled the end of the likes of the simple vacuum brake and the Clark-Webb chain brake.

 

Can't help with the types of handbrake on early non-brake vehicles I'm afraid.

 

HTH.

 

Jim

 

Edited to say sorry, Chris.  Our posts crossed.

 

Jim,

No problem.  I did my usual hand waving stuff and you provided firm evidence.

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More about coaches...

 

I am currently converting one of the Thomas the tank engine red coaches, that were shown on the previous page, so, obviously, it is devoid of any detailing and I am wondering whether coaches that are within the scope of my original question would have gas lighting, or oil lamps? I need to know whether or not to add pipes on the roof and gas tanks underneath.

 

 

 

In the case of a Light Railway hand-me-down, I should think that any coach originally built with oil lighting, and sold off in that state, might remain oil-lit to the end.

 

Those Bachmann Thomas red 4-wheelers are unmistakenly Stroudley in style, though not exact matches for the prototype.  Gary shows how good they look when used as Stroudleys, and if you assume they are ex-LBSC Stroudley coaches, they would have been built with oil-lighting and, I believe, converted to gas from 1904, so it depends upon when you decide they were sold out of service to your Light Railway.

 

One could imagine some coaches being sold off c.1904 rather than retained and converted to gas lighting.

 

However, there is a catch.  As originally built, the Stroudley brake thirds had wide duckets, the sides of which were sheeted.  The Bachmann coaches show the reduced width, with moulding, and I do not think that this modification took place earlier than 1911.  If wrong, someone with better knowledge of the Brighton please correct. 

 

Of course, you could assume that the new owners made a similar modification,perhaps to assist with their loading gauge.

Edited by Edwardian
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Thanks for the replies.

 

I'll have them as oil lamps if only to save on all that pesky pipework on the roof.

 

I've just had a look through a couple of my own books and so can probably now answer my own question about continous brakes. Photos of the Easingwold Railway, right up to the 1930s, show their own locomotive running passenger trains without a vac pipe and similarly the Aberford Railway up to the 1920s with locos on passenger trains with no vac pipes on the locos. The Easingwold loco does have a steam heat pipe though! So I think I can run passenger trains without vac brakes.without anyone telling me it's wrong. Perhaps the same regulations didn't come into force on light railways until much later than the main line companies

Edited by Ruston
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....Can't help with the types of handbrake on early non-brake vehicles I'm afraid

Perhaps they were painted invisible grey  :jester:

 

On the assumption you mean a solo coach, perhaps a wheel sprag.

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FWIW the Selsey Tramway’s coaching stock did not have through brakes and they even went so far as to remove the vac braking from one set of second hand coaches they had purchased. Only one of the Selsey engines, “Morous”, was fitted with pipes anyway. Enforcement of “the rules” on light railways was intermittent at best and since they were all quite slow was not of huge consequence.

 

HTH

 

David

Edited by davknigh
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Are the frames also 3D printed? I guess it weighs next to nothing, so are the side tanks at least hollow to allow some lead weights to be fitted?

 

Yes the frames are 3d printed, and it weighs next to nothing, the whole loco is 9 grams!! so lots of weight will be needed. I have yet to find a motor small enough to fit inside!!!

 

I have attached a picture to show the inside of the loco, the boiler is empty all the way for putting weight in.

 

post-22762-0-26194000-1515018187_thumb.jpg

 

Now as you said "more about coaches" unfortunately I think everyone has answered everything I could put it about the Bachmann Stroudley's.

 

Gary

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FWIW, the Bishop’s Castle abandoned the LNWR chain brake coaches in 1924, replacing them with a mixed bag of three coaches which were fitted with the vacuum brake, showing that they were in theory at least able to comply with the regs and requirements. Photographic evidence suggests that this was honoured almost entirely in the breach than the observance!

 

The Easingwold ran short trains over short distances, so probably never bothered itself:

As for the Selsey Tramway, the clue is in the last word: tramway. Different regulations, not that Colonel HF Stephens was likely to have been bothered. Reading about him and his attitude to safety, etc, I get the impression of someone who was not a very nice person.

Edited by Regularity
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Yes the frames are 3d printed, and it weighs next to nothing, the whole loco is 9 grams!! so lots of weight will be needed. I have yet to find a motor small enough to fit inside!!!

 

Gary

 

I think you would be looking at a 1015 or 1020 maximum. 

 

For a gearbox them maybe something from High Level such as the Roadrunner or LoLoader  

 

http://173.254.28.51/~highlev3/chris/Pages/trickypage.html

 

 

 

Jason

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FWIW, the Bishop’s Castle abandoned the LNWR chain brake coaches in 1924, replacing them with a mixed bag of three coaches which were fitted with the vacuum brake, showing that they were in theory at least able to comply with the regs and requirements. Photographic evidence suggests that this was honoured almost entirely in the breach than the observance!

 

The Easingwold ran short trains over short distances, so probably never bothered itself:

MAs for the Selsey Tramway, the clue is in the last word: tramway. Different regulations, not that Colonel HF Stephens was likely to have been bothered. Reading about him and his attitude to safety, etc, I get the impression of someone who was not a very nice person.

Stephens was an odd bod, one day threatenening to sack somebody then the next day buying them new specs

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It's a while since I read it, but Allan Wright's book on the North Sunderland Railway quotes a manager of the line from the 1940s as being concerned at the fire risk posed by oil lighting in their coaches. IIRC trains may subsequently have run completely unlit, which must have been cheerful on a winter's evening in Northumberland :D.

 

The NSR was also known to be rather lax about continuous brakes on its trains. I believe its coaches all had vac brake gear but it appears to have frequently been inoperative, regardless of the BoT's position on the matter. Especially noteworthy as the NSR wasn't, technically, a light railway, again IIRC.

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It's a while since I read it, but Allan Wright's book on the North Sunderland Railway quotes a manager of the line from the 1940s as being concerned at the fire risk posed by oil lighting in their coaches. IIRC trains may subsequently have run completely unlit, which must have been cheerful on a winter's evening in Northumberland :D.

 

The NSR was also known to be rather lax about continuous brakes on its trains. I believe its coaches all had vac brake gear but it appears to have frequently been inoperative, regardless of the BoT's position on the matter. Especially noteworthy as the NSR wasn't, technically, a light railway, again IIRC.

I was just about to say the same - the NSR latterly carried passengers in coaches that were not only unlit but also unbraked. To all intents and purposes the NSR was a light railway but only actually became one for legal purposes in order to assist in winding down the company after it closed in 1951.

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