Freight services being updated

[chriswright03]

Not seen this mentioned before so thought I would drop it in here.

 

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/freight-trains-in-britain-to-be-upgraded-with-delay-busting-digital-technology-in-multi-million-pound-deal/

 

Not too sure how it helps anyone but at least there is money being spent on the network which shows that growth is anticipated.  Long term project though if they are talking about every Loco being fitted with equipment by 2022!

[TheSignalEngineer]

At the present rate of progress there won't be anywhere it can be used until well after then.

[chriswright03]

By which time of course the whole project may have been binned because of a change in direction (trying to avoid the 'P' word).

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, the good old story of trying to integrate modern signalling kit into traction several generations older.  I saw that one rise and then die a death in connection with WCML 'modernisation in the 1990s when the 'black box' requiring to be retrofitted was described by its American promoters as 'about the same size as a coffin so no problem fitting it into your trains'     Electronics have, of course, moved on since then but 1990s technology traction units are still 1990s technology traction units.

 

I also came across the 'digital technology future' while doing some ISA work on the wonder signalling and traffic management system proposed for the WCML (and intended to go into the new building at Saltley and, by odd coincidence directly involved in freight train operation.  For some totally unaccountable reason the system specification developers, who had allegedly been advised by 'railway professionals', had completely misunderstood how the BR 29973 Form system for exceptional etc loads worked and were planning a spec which would ensure 8'6" high containers were likely to collide with various bridge structures and how speed restrictions due to heavy axleloads would not be enforced their bright ideas died a death as well (not just because of what I found as it happened, the spec had far more serious holes in it).

[SM42]

Interesting how it will make freight trains safer. Are freight trains falling off the rails on a daily basis due being signalled by coloured lights at the side of the track?.

 

Whilst this looks good on paper, did no-one ask about all the passenger trains that use the railway? Are they going to have the same technology fitted? 

 

This has all the hallmarks of creating  a political good news story when the reality, in terms of delivery timescales, will be a lot more disappointing.

 

Andy (being cynical) 

[Supaned]

One could also ask the question that if the Government is funding the installation of this kit on freight locos , will they do the same for passenger stock? Level playing field and all that.

[4630]

I don't have problem with taxpayer funding being used to aid the development of the technology, provided that there's some equitable sharing of the risk during the development cycle.

 

On the assumption that the technology can be made to work and deliver the benefits claimed for it, I do have a problem with taxpayer funding being used to provide the technology effectively free gratis to 'privately' owned freight operating companies without any financial contribution from them, or from the locomotive leasing companies for that matter.

 

There's not enough in that Network Rail piece to be able to make an assessment either way.  Hopefully though this won't turn out to be a long running saga of the taxpayer being on the hook for another open ended financial commitment.

Edited December 31, 2017 by 4630

[iands]

Surely this is nothing new. The railway industry has been working towards implementing ERTMS/ETCS for several years. As alluded to above, nothing more than political spin. And yes, the "whole fleet" will need to be fitted (in time), not just the 'freight locos' - exactly the same as GSMR. It will be interesting to see if the "yellow plant" will be included in the fitment (at the moment I can't see why not), and also all the "preserved" locos currently licensed to run on the "main line".

 

Regards, Ian.

[JeffP]

Will there be any freight left on the railways by 2020?

[Gordon A]

Excuse my ignorance but what does this new system do?

 

Gordon A

(Still living in the steam age, but occasionally peeping over the fence.)

[4630]

Will there be any freight left on the railways by 2020?

 

 

Are you not expecting the various bio-mass, intermodal, aggregates, steel (raw materials and finished product), timber, oil/bitumen/petroleum, and the small amount of coal to continue past 2020 then?

[SM42]

Gordon

 

In a simple terms this new system will do away with lineside signals and  replace them with a display in the cab. This means that trains can run closer together as some technical magic occurs and the system  knows where all the trains are, how far apart they are and what is a safe distance between them allowing for their different braking characteristics etc. and can advise on safe maximum speeds for each train given the location and speed  of others around it.

 

Andy

[iands]

Excuse my ignorance but what does this new system do?

 

Gordon A

(Still living in the steam age, but occasionally peeping over the fence.)

Hi Gordon,

 

ETCS (European Train Control System) is essentially "in-cab signalling" - altough there are 4 levels (0 - 3) with level 3 being the full in-cab signalling system.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Regards, Ian.

[D854_Tiger]

Gordon

 

In a simple terms this new system will do away with lineside signals and  replace them with a display in the cab. This means that trains can run closer together as some technical magic occurs and the system  knows where all the trains are, how far apart they are and what is a safe distance between them allowing for their different braking characteristics etc. and can advise on safe maximum speeds for each train given the location and speed  of others around it.

 

Andy

 

 

It should also eventually drastically reduce the need for track side cables, improving reliability and significantly reducing cost.

 

In cab signalling is also prerequisite for running at speeds above 125 mph.

[Gordon A]

Thanks for the replies gents.

Sounds an interesting system.

 

Gordon A

[chriswright03]

So if the passenger traffic doesn't have it fitted how does that help?

[Ron Ron Ron]

So if the passenger traffic doesn't have it fitted how does that help?

 

 

The passenger trains will obviously have to have it.

The article is only about the programme to provide installation in freight locos.

 

 

.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Gordon

 

In a simple terms this new system will do away with lineside signals and  replace them with a display in the cab. This means that trains can run closer together as some technical magic occurs and the system  knows where all the trains are, how far apart they are and what is a safe distance between them allowing for their different braking characteristics etc. and can advise on safe maximum speeds for each train given the location and speed  of others around it.

 

Andy

As was promised to Beardy so his Pendoleany trains could run at 140mph on WCML from 2005. Some of us in the industry were sceptical when it was promised, my view was it would be ready on WCML for the replacement of them in the mid 2020s.

[The Stationmaster]

Surely this is nothing new. The railway industry has been working towards implementing ERTMS/ETCS for several years. As alluded to above, nothing more than political spin. And yes, the "whole fleet" will need to be fitted (in time), not just the 'freight locos' - exactly the same as GSMR. It will be interesting to see if the "yellow plant" will be included in the fitment (at the moment I can't see why not), and also all the "preserved" locos currently licensed to run on the "main line".

 

Regards, Ian.

 

It is virtually impossible to fit to various preserved locos, especially those propelled by steam as it not only initiates a brake application in certain conditions if the Driver doesn't do it but will so cut off the power.  Not to difficult to do things with brake systems (apart from all sorts of graduated applications etc) - after all the GWR was doing it over a century back.  But cutting off the power is a rather more sophisticated task which means going into the control system of the loco and it would not be at all easy to incorporate on a steam engine without some design changes of a very basic sort.

 

Incidentally there is another challenge with freight when it comes to braking as train load has to be taken into account plus the way in which brake force develops through the train.  BR trials with ATP showed it was well nigh impossible to get consistent brake application on a freight, even using the same train several times over which came up with a different stopping distance every time.  Freight fitment could prove to face some interesting hurdles I think.

Edited December 31, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[SM42]

It is interesting that if this is to be installed by 2020 on freight locos, then presumably the same will apply to passenger trains too, or at least not be too far behind.  One then has to wonder why such a lot is being spent replacing lineside signals with err.. lineside signals that, if the logic follows, only have an intended life cycle of around 5 years.

 

Andy (Still cynical) 

[iands]

It is interesting that if this is to be installed by 2020 on freight locos, then presumably the same will apply to passenger trains too, or at least not be too far behind.  One then has to wonder why such a lot is being spent replacing lineside signals with err.. lineside signals that, if the logic follows, only have an intended life cycle of around 5 years.

 

Andy (Still cynical)

 

Obviously the trick is to get all the required traction fleets fitted first with the ETCS equipment and then gradually start to remove sections of the traditional lineside signals. So it will be quite a while before lineside signals start to disappear - I suspect long after 2022.

 

Regards, Ian.

[chriswright03]

The passenger trains will obviously have to have it.

The article is only about the programme to provide installation in freight locos.

 

 

.

I appreciate that Ron but are both passenger and freight being fitted in the same period?  If the freight is not expected to be completed until 2022 and the passnger after that then I don't see it being much use for many years.  Then once they are all fitted and tested they will start to remove the signals.  So not in the foreseeabe future then!

[TheSignalEngineer]

During a reorganisation consultation in the 1980s my then Regional S&T Engineer removed Locking Fitters from our organisation chart. His reasoning was that all lever frames would be gone from BR within about 20 years, so there was no need to train up and maintain specialist staff, those remaining could still do the job from the combined gangs. I researched the rate of resignalling at the time and we put the case forward that even with doubling the rate of resignalling experienced between 1959 and 1984 it would take approaching 50 years to complete the whole railway if the network and traffic level remained approximately the same as it stood at the time. I think my estimate may be it a bit closer than his.

[jim.snowdon]

The logic of fitting the freight fleet first is sound, in that, as a group, they go anywhere on the network, whereas much of the passenger fleet is captive to particular routes/areas and can be dealt with as those areas are converted to cab signalling and transmission based (effectively moving block) signalling. Whether that will bring a really significant increase in the network capacity remains to be seen, but it is currently seen by some as the saviour of a railway network that is far removed from the metro systems where it has so far been applied.

 

Jim

[iands]

The logic of fitting the freight fleet first is sound, in that, as a group, they go anywhere on the network, whereas much of the passenger fleet is captive to particular routes/areas and can be dealt with as those areas are converted to cab signalling and transmission based (effectively moving block) signalling. Whether that will bring a really significant increase in the network capacity remains to be seen, but it is currently seen by some as the saviour of a railway network that is far removed from the metro systems where it has so far been applied.

 

Jim

The opposite way round to GSMR, the freight locos being some of the last to be fitted. Which again made sense at the time with the main passenger routes being "GSMR implemented" stage by stage, and then any freight only routes not already covered mopped up at the end.

 

Regards, Ian.