GW Dean, Churchward & Collett Coaches

[Stefen1988]

What I wonder - how long were Dean Coaches used in regulary Passenger Trains, still in early 50' BR Era?

[Miss Prism]

39 minutes ago, Stefen1988 said:

What I wonder - how long were Dean Coaches used in regulary Passenger Trains, still in early 50' BR Era?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43128-4-wheel-and-clerestory-coaches-how-long-were-they-in-service/

 

[Penrhos1920]

GW Dean Coaches has had an annual update.  I have uploaded most of the Jack Slinn drawing collection that pertains to Dean coaches.  There are a pair of main pages; one each for short and bogie coaches.  There are also 13 pages of high resolution drawings suitable for printing off at A4 (best done in landscape to get a coach per page).  With the exception of mail and sleeper coaches these drawings are propagated throughout all of the coach pages so that they are also presented with the numbers, conversions, photos etc.  The history and conversions of mail and sleeper coaches is too complex for me to cover and will have to wait for another day or for a real expert to step up to the mark.

 

All of the above would not have been possible without the help of Jonathan David aka @corneliuslundie  who has scanned all of the drawings.

 

There are two more new pages that cover the liveries of Dean coaches.  The first is liveries 1880 to 1940 of 4 wheelers in photos.  The second has drawings of 3 coaches that can be drawn in any livery over the same time frame in full colour.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Penrhos1920

[Edwardian]

Once again, I cannot thank you enough for creating and maintaining this uniquely valuable resource and I look forward to returning to it and seeing the additions.

[corneliuslundie]

I have passed all the original GWR drawings I received from Jack Slinn's son to the HMRS, along with a set of the scans. I still have all the scans including the original "part" scans which sometimes include information which was cropped off the final versions. I can't promise that there is any useful information on them but am happy to respond to queries.

Jonathan David

[Penrhos1920]

It's update time.  Sorry I've been silent for nearly 2 years - I spent a large part of lockdown unable to access the computer desk much as the wife and daughter were working from it and I've only got it back recently.  Anyway I've just added a new page about Passenger Brake Vans, Parcels Vans and Hounds Vans and the corresponding Jack Slinn collection drawings.

 

I had thought that by completing this page I had covered 98% of GWR 4/6 wheel coaches.  But I then saw that there are no numbers allocated to diagrams T40/1 so I'll fill in those blanks this week.  If you find another place that I've missed something please let me know.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Penrhos1920
Links updated

[88D]

On 14/09/2019 at 19:18, timbowilts said:

Dean bogies in various lengths are also available from Stafford Road on Shapeways, if you are flush with money 

Tim T

Any idea as to whether these bogies would be suitable for EM?

[Penrhos1920]

3 hours ago, 88D said:

Any idea as to whether these bogies would be suitable for EM?

I bought some 10' Dean bogies and P4 wheels fit nicely with bearings.  You might want to shift the brakes as they are far to close to the bogie frame

[Charlie586]

Thank you for the update. The V2 on the Wantage tramway photo is very interesting,  I haven't seen that photo or the interesting looking engine in front before.

[Miss Prism]

The V2 is on the Brill Tramway, not Wantage Tramway.

 

[88D]

19 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

I bought some 10' Dean bogies and P4 wheels fit nicely with bearings.  You might want to shift the brakes as they are far to close to the bogie frame

Many thanks. I’ll put in an order for some bogies to try out.

[Compound2632]

This photograph of the arrival of a West & North route train at Liverpool Lime Street station on 30 April 1901: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=5110747768982526&set=gm.950475248973730

has been the subject of considerable discussion on the L&NWR Society facebook page, as it has many features of interest to those interested in that company. I've been looking through @Penrhos1920's estimable website to try to identify the two leading Great western carriages. I think we have a D14 50 ft non-corridor 4-compartment brake third leading (60 built 1893-5) with an E22 48 ft non-corridor tricomposite (10 built 1889) next. The latter had three third class compartments (nearest the camera), two firsts, a luggage compartment with double doors, and two second class compartments. The main roof of the brake third has the 3-radius profile, as does its clerestory roof, while that of the composite is a single arc, with the shape of the clerestory roof unclear; overall its clerestory sits a little lower. This would make the D14 CEE7N in the Lewis classification, in agreement with its entry on the website. the E22 would, I think, be CEA7N or CAA7N. The website entry gives it as CAE7N, which is what the diagram reproduced there shows. I'm pretty confident of the layout of this composite, both from counting doors and clerestory ventilators, and can't find another diagram that matches.

 

So, it looks to me as if the diagram is wrong; this is the second time photographic evidence has forced me to this conclusion. The previous occasion was a photo of a carriage that had all the features of an E9 except that the guard's and luggage compartments were transposed relative to the diagram.

 

Any comment?

[Miss Prism]

I'd say the roof styles are the same, the slightly lower second vehicle is I think merely sinkage and different ride height.

 

[Penrhos1920]

I think that the second coach is an E25.

Facebook photo

 

There are 2 ventillators on the clerestory that are right at each end of the coach; there's no space for a window between the end and either ventilator.  That makes both end compartments 'half width'.  Therefore I think it's E25 which was unique in having a half width compartment at both ends.

 

I agree with @Miss Prism, the coach appears to be running lower than the D14.  The far roof end, half way between the clerestory and edge, roof profile appears to change directions indicating a 3 arc roof.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Penrhos1920
Corrected E35 to E25, reinstated photo

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I'd say the roof styles are the same, the slightly lower second vehicle is I think merely sinkage and different ride height.

 

Do you think so? To my eyes, the eves line is the same on both carriages or at the very least much closer than the clerestory roof height.

 

I've just spotted that the footboard is set lower on the presumed E22 than on the presumed D14. (The D14 might, I've realised, be a D9 - possibly more likely. There's possibly six rather than seven panels between the lookout and the doubled doors.) But you said previously, @Miss Prism, that footboards moved around.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

I think that the second coach is an E35.

 

E25, you mean - found that and agree as to layout. Listed as CAE7N. But I'm not convinced that the lower roof isn't a single arc. Any change of radius is less pronounced than one sees at the leading end of the brake third; also, I look at the difference in profile at the gap between the two carriages, though I admit that if you're more convinced than I am about a difference in ride height, you could argue that explains the apparent difference.

 

A peculiar design in that the third class compartments get the steadiest ride while those in the first and second class coupes have a wild ride. (But perhaps that's the idea.)

[Western Star]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But I'm not convinced that the lower roof isn't a single arc.

Stephen,

 

I am with you on the main roof of the second carriage - I think that this is a single arc roof rather than a three arc roof.  To my eye I can see, on the leading carriage, a flattish portion of the main roof adjacent to the clerestory...   I do not see the same characteristic on the second vehicle.

 

regards, Graham

[simonmcp]

Looking at the left hand red circled roof portion, not having seen the full picture I assume that is between the first and second coach. The darker shape that then disappears as it gets near the clerestory suggests to me that the coach to the right of the gap has a flatter roof, nearest the clerestory, than the one to the left?

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, simonmcp said:

not having seen the full picture 

 

Click on the link: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=5110747768982526&set=gm.950475248973730.

[Penrhos1920]

A bit of GWR coach building history.  When clerestory roofs were first introduced both the clerestory and the main roof were single arc.  Then 3 arc roofs were introduced, but only for the main roof.  The advantage of a 3 arc roof was greater height inside near the sides without increasing the centre height.  Then after about 2 1/2 years the GWR decided to change the clerestory roof to 3 arc as well.  There never was a single arc main roof with a 3 arc clerestory.

[88D]

On 04/03/2022 at 12:25, 88D said:

Many thanks. I’ll put in an order for some bogies to try out.

I was put off by the postage cost, so no trial!

[Penrhos1920]

I’ve moving the GWR coach content away from http://www.Penrhos.me.uk to its own domain https://gwrcoaches.org.uk.  For the moment the old content is duplicated, but later next week I’ll remove it and put in redirects.  If you link to any of my coach content you’ll need to change your links; all the page names are unchanged so it’s just the domain that you’ll need to change.  If you find anything awry you can find me at the back of the Carriage Shed.

 

All the content about Penrhos is unchanged.

 

PS You’ll find a couple of new pages that might interest you.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Penrhos1920
Links updated

[Mikkel]

I want to thank you again for the site. I have all the books but your systematically arranged lists makes it much easier to obtain an overview and find a particular type and style of coach.

[Neal Ball]

On 31/03/2022 at 20:24, Penrhos1920 said:

I’ve moving the GWR coach content away from http://www.Penrhos.me.uk to its own domain http://www.GWRCoaches.org.uk.  For the moment the old content is duplicated, but later next week I’ll remove it and put in redirects.  If you link to any of my coach content you’ll need to change your links; all the page names are unchanged so it’s just the domain that you’ll need to change.  If you find anything awry you can find me at the back of the Carriage Shed.

 

All the content about Penrhos is unchanged.

 

PS You’ll find a couple of new pages that might interest you.

I had often popped onto the Penrhos pages looking at the early stock and found it interesting…. But now exoanding it into the main GWR fleet of carriages is great thank you.

 

I have often thought that the GWR carriages books needed updating into a large chronological order book…. And I guess your site is the answer to that wish. For which thank you, looks as if I will be a regular visitor.

[Miss Prism]

All links to Penhros.me.uk from gwr.org.uk now updated, but I find it awkward not to be able to link to specific pages, particularly now the coach area has its dedicated domain.