Castle Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Hi All, I’m currently painting the first of my two pairs of GWR Breakdown Train mess and tool vans as preserved at Didcot. http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/BV1/BV1.html http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/BV47/BV47.html http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/BV56/BV56.html http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/wagons/BV135/BV135.html Now, the GWR livery is clear but what is the early period BR(W) look for these vehicles? Should it be just the GWR brown without the GWR markings or did they go black before going red? I would be really grateful if anyone has any information on this topic. Many thanks and all the best, Castle EDIT: Here is a sneak peak of the build so far... Edited January 4, 2018 by Castle 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluemonkey presents.... Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Castle, sorry I don't know the answer to your question but I do know those are two lovely built wagons you have. You have made an excellent job on them both. Always a pleasure to view your work Sir. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Castle, Very nice indeed. I have the very same kits on the workbench at the moment, so will watch your project with interest. To answer your livery question, yes it was plain black post Nationalisation, in accordance with all Departmental vehicles. Peter Tatlow in his Vol.1 states the directive for red livery came out in July 1959, but did not readily appear until into 1960. Hope this helps. Regards, Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hi All, Castle, sorry I don't know the answer to your question but I do know those are two lovely built wagons you have. You have made an excellent job on them both. Always a pleasure to view your work Sir. Cheers No.46! Very kind. They are lovely kits - they are compensated at one end and the only thing I have really had to do was to provide new buffers and axleboxes / springs and the brass ones weren’t quite right. Castle, Very nice indeed. I have the very same kits on the workbench at the moment, so will watch your project with interest. To answer your livery question, yes it was plain black post Nationalisation, in accordance with all Departmental vehicles. Peter Tatlow in his Vol.1 states the directive for red livery came out in July 1959, but did not readily appear until into 1960. Hope this helps. Regards, Andy. That’s great Andy thank you - now here’s the big question - were the ends red or black? All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I know that the Newton Abbot vehicles were all plain black, ends and all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) That’s great - thanks! In GWR times, the tool van ends were (signal?) red and the mess vans were black, both with brown sides and black underpinnings including the buffer beams. I was thinking for variety as I’m modelling the early BR period and the collection has 2 of each of these vehicles, I might do one set in BR and the other in ‘debranded’ GWR flavour. Not yet decided which way to go with this first pair... Cheers, Castle EDIT: Ignore the GWR livery stuff here, it’s WRONG!, Pete S has given me chapter and verse in post 13! Edited January 5, 2018 by Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 4, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2018 Which kit have you used for them? Very nice build! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaselfish Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) That’s great - thanks! In GWR times, the tool van ends were (signal?) red and the mess vans were black, both with brown sides and black underpinnings including the buffer beams. I was thinking for variety as I’m modelling the early BR period and the collection has 2 of each of these vehicles, I might do one set in BR and the other in ‘debranded’ GWR flavour. Not yet decided which way to go with this first pair... Cheers, Castle I think you'd be safe in painting your late GWR/early BR vans in brown without the red ends. I just can't envisage the bright red surviving wartime conditions. This photo of the Tyseley engineer's train isn't the best quality and the lighting is harsh, but the van ends are very dark. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj100a.htm Which kit have you used for them? Very nice build! They look like the former CSP Agenoria kits. I'd like to get the kit myself. The current owners of CSP tell me that it's been passed to David Geen, but I've had no luck contacting him so far. Edited January 4, 2018 by Weaselfish Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 4, 2018 Author Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Hi All, Which kit have you used for them? Very nice build! Thanks Fatadder! See below for the origins... I think you'd be safe in painting your late GWR/early BR vans in brown without the red ends. I just can't envisage the bright red surviving wartime conditions. This photo of the Tyseley engineer's train isn't the best quality and the lighting is harsh, but the van ends are very dark. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj100a.htm They look like the former CSP Agenoria kits. I'd like to get the kit myself. The current owners of CSP tell me that it's been passed to David Geen, but I've had no luck contacting him so far. Thanks Weaselfish! Very inspirational photo that one - I love the way the guys are hanging out the doors like that! Could make for a nice train seeing as I have two sets of these to build! Correct on the CSP kits. They were the last things that I bought from Roger Slade who was a really nice guy that I chatted to a few times. I’m still in need of the all third Dreadnought and there were rumblings of a kit for No. 1338 too which has been spotted in the wild as a test etch on RMWEB. I hope the range isn’t lost... All the best, Castle Edited January 4, 2018 by Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted January 5, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2018 I believe that David Geen has taken over the range of coach kits, which include the Dreadnoughts, but hurry as he retires after ExpoEM South in Bracknell this May. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 5, 2018 I believe that David Geen has taken over the range of coach kits, which include the Dreadnoughts, but hurry as he retires after ExpoEM South in Bracknell this May. While I don't believe the new owner has been publically announced yet, it has been mentioned on RMWeb a few times by people close to Dave that a sale of the range (certainly the coaches and wagons) is agreed / almost agreed (and that it is not to one of the well known black holes) Which is good given as well as the bits for my brakedown train there are a good number of kits in Dave's range that I would eventually like to build! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pteremy Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Out of interest in the Tyseley photo both vans look like they have some sort of name board on the roof? And there is no obvious sign of planking - had they been sheeted over/rebuilt by then, or is it just the quality of the photo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) That’s great - thanks! In GWR times, the tool van ends were (signal?) red and the mess vans were black, both with brown sides and black underpinnings including the buffer beams. I was thinking for variety as I’m modelling the early BR period and the collection has 2 of each of these vehicles, I might do one set in BR and the other in ‘debranded’ GWR flavour. Not yet decided which way to go with this first pair... Cheers, Castle Hi All, I have had a chat with Pete S (K14) from DRC C&W and he says that the end colours is a bit vague. The outer ends on both vehicle were probably red and the inner ends could be red or black... In the Russell big book of GWR coaches and other stuff there's a pair of shots of the Birkenhead vans (Nos. 25 & 26) in Russell as built in 190? with the 25" GW, & again in 1947 still in the same livery but possibly with white handrails. So there is the erratum! It looks like the repainting of these vehicles was way down any priority list at any time if No’s. 25 & 26 we’re still in their original livery in 1947! I think grey roofs are acceptable as white would have at least been weathered grey if not painted grey for WWII. It would seem much filthy weathering is required... Out of interest in the Tyseley photo both vans look like they have some sort of name board on the roof? And there is no obvious sign of planking - had they been sheeted over/rebuilt by then, or is it just the quality of the photo?Pete has a picture of Steel-panelled No. 103 photo'd ex-works in 1938 (for reference it had small GW & a white roof with the bodyside brown taken up to the rain strips), so yes, steel panels were a thing on some of them! EDIT: Roof boards - sorry Pteremy! Yes, they were long wooden panels with ‘cut out’ letters attached to them. They had the department and the depot name on them. For example, tool van No. 1 at Didcot has the following text: LOCO. CARRIAGE & WAGON DEPT TAUNTON The T in Dept is superscript and underlined. Look at the links in post 1 to see details of them. If I remember, I will take some pictures of the ones at Didcot when I am next there. All the best, Castle Edited January 5, 2018 by Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighty1674 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Hi there......I have been following this item with keen interest as I have built the two tool and mess vehicles and also the Blacksmith models breakdown tool van, which I have painted in gwr.....the question I have that I hope someone may be able to help with is where the to get the gwr transfers from, they are the 25 foot GW and numbers......I have tried railtec transfers but am still waiting almost a year now and was wondering if anyone else has built these vans in gwr and where they have got the transfers from, I was wondering if available if O gauge transfers may suffice........here’s hoping......Dave brighty..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) HI All, Here is the chapter and verse of stuff Pete knows. He sends his regards to you all! “Officially, they didn't move around very much so were way down the list for works attention - especially in far-flung places like Penzance - so I wouldn't be surprised to find that most of them just got a quick tosh with some dark brown & a new number applied.” “Russell Coaches Appendix Vol 2 has two photos of the OOC 'combined' 70ft van No. 130 that clearly show a patchwork quilt finish - & that's after a visit to Swindon!” “When we had 47 in & stripped the T&G off, one side had obviously had 'works'attention & been re-boarded - presumably at Newton Abbot. On that side, the original boards had been ripped/smashed off and the remaining screws hammered flat into the framing & new boards screwed over the top. Some frame repairs had been made down the bottom. The under frame is very thin on that side & flexes rather more than the designer intended, so I suspect that Pz didn't have too many accidents and the vans sat around unattended so it was the seaward side that suffered.” All the best, Castle Edited January 5, 2018 by Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Hi there......I have been following this item with keen interest as I have built the two tool and mess vehicles and also the Blacksmith models breakdown tool van, which I have painted in gwr.....the question I have that I hope someone may be able to help with is where the to get the gwr transfers from, they are the 25 foot GW and numbers......I have tried railtec transfers but am still waiting almost a year now and was wondering if anyone else has built these vans in gwr and where they have got the transfers from, I was wondering if available if O gauge transfers may suffice........here’s hoping......Dave brighty.....Hi Dave, I would personally as to the scale 25” ones - the 25’ ones won’t fit the real thing... Sorry - couldn’t resist it! In all seriousness though, Roger Slade hooked me up with the set I have and I have no idea where he got them from. Alas that source died with him. Have you thought about asking Cambridge Custom Transfers at all? I will keep a look out for you. All the best, Castle Edited January 5, 2018 by Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Precision Decals do custom decals with very good quick service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
railtec-models Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Hi there......I have been following this item with keen interest as I have built the two tool and mess vehicles and also the Blacksmith models breakdown tool van, which I have painted in gwr.....the question I have that I hope someone may be able to help with is where the to get the gwr transfers from, they are the 25 foot GW and numbers......I have tried railtec transfers but am still waiting almost a year now and was wondering if anyone else has built these vans in gwr and where they have got the transfers from, I was wondering if available if O gauge transfers may suffice........here’s hoping......Dave brighty..... Hi Dave, it would seem a reply I sent earlier in the year didn't reach you. I will re-send it in the next few minutes so if you don't receive it, please can you PM me? (Let me know if your email address has changed). As with everything we make now, these are spot printed so have no superfluous unsightly carrier film to worry about, withstand regular handling, contain true vibrant full colours and are compatible with enamels as well as acrylics - things which are always worth checking when shopping around. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted January 6, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 6, 2018 Are these the CSP kits? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Hi Ric, Yep - CSP. I will do a Little Didcot write up on this first of two pairs when they are out of the paint shop. I couldn’t resist the red ends this time - the next two will have plain black as it’s a lot less hassle! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted January 7, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2018 Ah excellent, thanks. I got these from Roger a while back and have them tucked away in the "to do" pile. It will be good to see the write-up on them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighty1674 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 Hi there.....many thanks for the replies I have had re the transfers, especially to Castle pointing out my error on the keyboard ( well that’s my story and I am sticking to it).... also mr. Railtec has contacted me and hopefully we will have some lovely transfers soon to finish off my kits, when finished I will post some piccies.......again thank you all......regards....Dave brighty..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 Hi All, I’ve got a load of pictures of the insides of No’s. 56 & 1 at DRC which are the most original of the two pairs at DRC. Are they of interest? All the best, Castle 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Hi All, I’ve got a load of pictures of the insides of No’s. 56 & 1 at DRC which are the most original of the two pairs at DRC. Are they of interest? All the best, Castle Yes please. Gordon A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted January 14, 2018 Author Share Posted January 14, 2018 (edited) Hi All, Here we go then! This is No. 56. Built in 1908. It’s used as occasional staff accommodation and general storage. A few things have been changed but it is essentially as it left BR Service. We entered via the guard’s compartment. The guard’s seat is on the other side, against the wall to the officials compartment. This is the end withcthe chimney and the two windows. The signage above the seat is original BR(W). As is the BOC sign on the adjacent wall! Although not operational, most of the brake gear is intact except for the missing setter which should be on the top of the open pipe. This is on the portion to the workers compartment. The official’s compartment has padded sides next to the beds. The mattresses are obvious modern replacements but the originals are stored for when the vehicle is restored to museum display only condition one day. Under the bunks are 2 long storage draws per side. On the one wall is just the door and then a space... ... and on the other, a door and then a sink and water tank arrangement. Stored along the top edges of the walls in here are some P/Way gauges both sides. Notice that all windows have rolling blinds and not curtains. This end also remarkably has an unrestored but complete gas lamp assembly. Moving into the workers end, against the partition are two cupboards. The flooring throughout is of the diagonal board type - the same as was found in the broad gauge era. Under the centre windows are two little seats / chests. Sorry about the picture! The far end has bunks as well and can be set up with two bunks either side. It’s just a less plush version of the official’s end and has a door in the end instead of the heater. It has original BR(W) water fire extinguishers in a rack. The third one is still in the van but has been removed to be emptied. The vehicle has a modern extinguisher in the guard’s compartment. This compartment also has gauges at the tops of the walls. No. 1 was also built in 1908. This is used as a rolling store for the buildings and structures department and as such is full of their stuff! Of interest just inside the doors are the small swing out derricks that were used for lifting equipment in and out of the vehicle. There isn’t much original stuff inside the van as it is essentially a store on wheels! These pigeon hole like units are on opposite sides of the centre doors. I hope that was useful or at least vaguely interesting! All the best, Castle Edited January 14, 2018 by Castle 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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