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GER Diagram 5 Cattle wagons


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I’m just doing some work on a GER Diagram 5 large cattle wagon, going through the drawing I’m working from it appears to show the a ventilation gap 3” deep on the end just above the head stock, so far I can’t find a photo of a Diagram 5 van but it appears from the white staining on poor somewhat distant image that this may be the case but not repaeated on later stock. Does anyone know what GER practice was?

Edited by Beatty 139
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The Diagram 5 is the 18’7” large cattle wagon, now I have finished drawing it I actually have 3 questions, the one as above, were the lower body side plank cut out for the partition stops or were they internal and the position of various lamp irons that are shown on the drawing that I am working from originally published in the railway engineer.

 

Thank you for the pointer I will dig out my SR Wagon book for I of W stock and see if that gives me any clues.

Edited by Beatty 139
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I have seen the HMRS drawing and believe it’s been prepared off the period Drawing I am working from, the photo is great as it confirms the end arrangement of lamp irons, you can’t make out the side one on the image.

 

Looking at the photos they appear to have white staining on the first board up at one end I think this confirms how I read the drawing that the lower plank was cut to allow the movable divider to slot into, it’s the HMRS drawing that made me doubt myself as it’s shown in dotted as if hidden detail.

 

Many thanks for that, it’s the trouble in designing for Gauge 3 and 1 every detail counts

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So answers have slowly been coming and making the mists clear.

 

One real question left is how do the top door lock work, the 5 plank continental traffic wagons look like they have the same but no picture I have found clearly shows the arrangement.

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So answers have slowly been coming and making the mists clear.

One real question left is how do the top door lock work, the 5 plank continental traffic wagons look like they have the same but no picture I have found clearly shows the arrangement.

The answers have been coming quite quickly.

 

Are you a member of the GERS? If so, have you asked on their forum?

If you aren’t, why not join?

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I have now got the detail of the door locks, I am aware of the GER society but this is a one off for me, unfortunately the Diagram 5 Cattle Wagon don’t appear to have been very photogenic. My normal modelling is industrial the NER and MR.

 

As I said before I am working in Gauge 3 and at 13.5mm to the foot any missed detail is quite obvious.

 

Fortunately I have an excellent contemporary drawing to work from.

Edited by Beatty 139
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I understand where you are coming from.

 

Too much information closely guarded by small societies and too many societies to be a member of all of them.

 

How I wish the UK were like it is here in France, where a pre-nationalisation society is gradually putting information about all companies onto the web.  Has this hit membership?  Apparently no, membership slowly grows despite/because of the freely available information.

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Too much information closely guarded by small societies and too many societies to be a member of all of them.

 

That’s right.

The individual members with detailed knowledge owe it to everyone else to systematically collate and organise their sources of information, digitise and scan it, and make it available to the whole world. And if they get specific enquiries, they should drop everything else - even their paid employment - and answer them immediately.

Why hadn’t I realised that before?

 

The GERS is in fact a very good Society in terms of sharing information outside of its membership, but they cannot order individuals to cough up the gen.

Edited by Regularity
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I think you miss the point.  Not only was I not suggesting that the holders of information drop everything to answer individual queries, once the information is published on the web, there is no need to bother the original information holders, because the information is there for all to see.  And yes it does take time, a lot of time, to get all of the information together, but if you don't start you will never finish.

 

There is also a real danger that as individual information holders die off, part or even all of their valuable information is lost forever.   I have made sure that for the very small amount of data that I hold (as originals) that my will specifies what is to happen to these items and just as importantly that next of kin know and understand what these items are and where they are precisely stored.  Others are perhaps not so forward thinking - especially if they are younger and less likely to consider their demise.

 

Please don't misunderstand, I am not against societies and belong to 2 UK ones as well as the CHRF who run the websites in France that I mentioned above.  I just could not possibly afford to belong to all of the ones that interest me.

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I share your concern, the more so as when I was sniped on ebay* for a rare copy of a minor railway’s rule book, it obviously went onto the shelves of a collector of rule books, as nothing has been seen or heard of it, not even amongst those with a genuine interest in the Railway. My intention had been to scan it into a pdf file and share it, but that was not the case of the hoarder who bought it.

 

But there is no way I can demand that anyone else do the same, no matter how noble an act that may be: if it has been obtained via legal means, it is entirely up to them what they do with it.

 

* Not the best time to lose both WiFi and mobile phone signal!

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I think you miss the point.  Not only was I not suggesting that the holders of information drop everything to answer individual queries, once the information is published on the web, there is no need to bother the original information holders, because the information is there for all to see.  And yes it does take time, a lot of time, to get all of the information together, but if you don't start you will never finish.

 

There is also a real danger that as individual information holders die off, part or even all of their valuable information is lost forever.   I have made sure that for the very small amount of data that I hold (as originals) that my will specifies what is to happen to these items and just as importantly that next of kin know and understand what these items are and where they are precisely stored.  Others are perhaps not so forward thinking - especially if they are younger and less likely to consider their demise.

 

Please don't misunderstand, I am not against societies and belong to 2 UK ones as well as the CHRF who run the websites in France that I mentioned above.  I just could not possibly afford to belong to all of the ones that interest me.

But you haven't even mentioned approaching the GERS or GER steward of the HMRS. As has been said, the GER is one of the best served pre-group railway companies. John Watling, the HMRS steward, a stalwart of the GERS, has spent a considerable amount of time (and I would guess his money) working on cataloguing GER information for the NRM.

 

Paul

Edited by hmrspaul
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I take the point Paul, although it is not me that has the specific GER query.

 

However I think maybe you also miss the point.  Dedicated though the HMRS stewards and the society secretaries are, they have (I hope) real lives outside of railways.  As Regularity rightly points out demands on their time for perhaps quite oddball queries cannot mean that they drop everything.  So the enquirer has to have patience.

 

If information was freely available on the internet, firstly the secretaries and stewards can be involved in perhaps more important things (collecting and collating new information for example) and the enquirer gains access (you hope) to the information needed immediately.   It is win-win.  

 

And as I wrote above, although it is perhaps counter intuitive, based on the French experience membership levels go up despite the information being freely available.   I suspect this is in part due to a very highly regarded journal which in terms of quality is as good as the HMRS journal IMHO.  

 

I model the PLM railway of France and if I want information, pictures,  drawings etc. I go to

http://wikiplm.railsdautrefois.fr/wikiPLM/index.php?title=Portail

 

If it is not there then it is almost certainly not available at this time. [There are a few items that are copy write controlled and are not there, but I probably have those already.] 

Not quite 8 years on the data base consists of "25 000 pages et 20 300 plans, photos ou cartes postales" and work has started on the version for the Midi company - just another 6 main companies to go after that.  So yes lots of work, but the benefits long term are enormous.  

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It’s a kit Development, I have an established range of Gauge 1 kits that are largely an extension of my own G1 hobby but I have been tempted into producing some work in G3, so I am currently producing a range of G3 wagon models to test the market with but wanted to move away from my normal MR/NER and found an excellent contemporary drawing from the Railway Enginner, as ever no photos, so some detail is a little hard to work out, however a few pointers and a study of GER practice and those questions have been largely resolved, or resolved enough that I can confidently deign and build the wagon and see if someone can definitely know better, I’m sure someone will but if it’s only minor amendments it’s not the end of the world.

 

Saying that if there is no interest in the model to go into production it will become one of my own collection.

Edited by Beatty 139
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Gauge 1 is normally only drips and drabs as a supplier and has a huge following compared to G3 but G3 is very pre-grouping focused as far as I can tell so suits my interests very much.

 

A complete run will at the most is only likely to 10-15 wagons if there is even that much interest.

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So, to get this clear, although it might be a small run, you are a supplier looking for information about something you wish to sell?

 

There is nothing necessarily wrong with that, but some may be reticent about putting time and effort into someone else’s product, so this needs to be stated upfront to avoid the possibility of future resentment.

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Surely it makes no difference as the aim should be for any model to be as accurate as possible and to create a pool of information, this is a public forum that’s searchable so it becomes a record that’s a benefit as a whole.

 

You appear to be going into that silo mentality, I’m a railway historian, preservationist, Modeller, enthusiast and most likely last of all small trader, but I have always helped when I can with information and given back freely to my hobby. I guess that I have no concept of comericialism because I work in scales and gauges where competition doesn’t really occur and the traders are part of ‘hobby’ helping people recreate what they want and not treating them as cash cows or even to be quite honest customers.

Just a thought.

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I just think it better to be honest and upfront about your reasons, no matter how small any commercial interest there may be - I am well aware that the way to make a small amount of money in the hobby is to start with a larger sum.

 

Resumably in your expected market there are some GE modellers, who may we’ll be able to help with photos?

 

Maybe it’s just me, but if someone is asking for help with making something for re-sale, I don’t mind if I know in advance. Openness and honesty are simple ways to deal with life.

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