Graham Farish 2018 - the full announcements

[Karhedron]

Ah, here we go. 12-car set at Reading in 1968 courtesy of Robert Carroll.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/14231802879/in/photolist-XJbvZs-4D3cjS-nFBHaH-5DtTHD-CcVC4L-aqNDJH-nfDsdC-dFuhZf-w1q8eF-dfPqo7-21MWdo1-8M66nx-aDnvSC-bMzijF-5yittP-dRir9F-PjFcGb-8TjctM-DCJxx2-Ud6CbH-Ua9bjL-VoaFz3-VrJdVr-SE9LWm-AWGaTp-dFoTsF-9QA6XR-whfw4A-rsQ4us-byECvC-GGJfYf-a1dhuz-6na5qi-byEJC3-B2Q8Ci-bMzitM-e7q1hT-BzKkqW-p6emGc-byECb9-HXFCsM-G8zPGb-uHkMMB-vpodoX-wkA4BE-tmgsB9-DhBnC9-tCUBC8-N9afy9-9SD8tf

[Padishar Creel]

Ah, here we go. 12-car set at Reading in 1968 courtesy of Robert Carroll.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/14231802879/in/photolist-XJbvZs-4D3cjS-nFBHaH-5DtTHD-CcVC4L-aqNDJH-nfDsdC-dFuhZf-w1q8eF-dfPqo7-21MWdo1-8M66nx-aDnvSC-bMzijF-5yittP-dRir9F-PjFcGb-8TjctM-DCJxx2-Ud6CbH-Ua9bjL-VoaFz3-VrJdVr-SE9LWm-AWGaTp-dFoTsF-9QA6XR-whfw4A-rsQ4us-byECvC-GGJfYf-a1dhuz-6na5qi-byEJC3-B2Q8Ci-bMzitM-e7q1hT-BzKkqW-p6emGc-byECb9-HXFCsM-G8zPGb-uHkMMB-vpodoX-wkA4BE-tmgsB9-DhBnC9-tCUBC8-N9afy9-9SD8tf

 

Thanks!

Different livery so that may mean I do not have to buy 2sets

es grüßt

pc

[acg5324]

Prices up for the Mk2f on the website. We had better start saving!

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/graham-farish-br-mk2f-fo-first-open-coach-intercity-374-762/

Edited March 3, 2018 by acg5324

[Padishar Creel]

Prices up for the Mk2f on the website. We had better start saving!

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/graham-farish-br-mk2f-fo-first-open-coach-intercity-374-762/

Hallo,

I know it the photo is of an 00-Gauge model and the coaches have not been released but if this is representative then shame that the InterCity version is Executive and not Swallow. According to Wikipedia there was no difference to the livery colours. Is that true? Was the light grey of the lower body really the same?

thanks for info

es grüßt

pc 

 

[branchie]

Prices up for the Mk2f on the website. We had better start saving!http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/graham-farish-br-mk2f-fo-first-open-coach-intercity-374-762/

Wow. Better decide which child I have to sell ....

[cornish trains jez]

A little bit better priced when they hit the shops hopefully...

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/61074/Graham_Farish_374_737_Mk2F_TSO_second_open_in_Intercity_livery/StockDetail.aspx

[mjkerr]

Prices up for the Mk2f on the website. We had better start saving!

Already saved up, since first announced

May 2013, £22.95 (bulk £20.00)

May 2016, £29.95 (bulk £27.50)

February 2018, £42.95 (bulk £35.00)

 

Hopefully early 2019, expecting £49.95 (bulk £45.00)

Will it be worth it...

All I need to do is replace my existing fleet of DBSO, so effectively only adding one FO

[bigP]

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[bigP]

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[Crepello]

Was there ever a light grey used on the lower part of coaches in the Executive or Intercity colour schemes?  I always thought it was buff.

[bigP]

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[grahame]

Then we'll have additional costs from Brexit coming into effect by then no doubt.

 

What additional costs would those be? I thought they were coming direct from China (rather than Europe) and paid for in US dollars (rather than Euros).

 

G

Edited March 4, 2018 by grahame

[bigP]

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[bmthtrains - David]

For me these prices are now no longer affordable. Even when I return to full time work after my PhD is completed, £240 for a 350 is still over the limit I’d be prepared to pay. It will have to be an extra special release to get me to spend that land on cash now (pendolino was an example of this).

 

What worries me even more though is that these price increases, for whatever their reasons, just don’t seem to be slowing the hobby down as we’ve been saying this over and over for the past 10 years. This means a lot of people are quite happy to pay such prices, meaning there is little demand to lower them, potentially forever pricing out those without substantial disposable incomes.

 

A dangerous move to elitism by accident?

 

David

[Luke Piewalker]

Fortunately I must need the one DBSO...

[ash39]

For me these prices are now no longer affordable. Even when I return to full time work after my PhD is completed, £240 for a 350 is still over the limit I’d be prepared to pay. It will have to be an extra special release to get me to spend that land on cash now (pendolino was an example of this).

What worries me even more though is that these price increases, for whatever their reasons, just don’t seem to be slowing the hobby down as we’ve been saying this over and over for the past 10 years. This means a lot of people are quite happy to pay such prices, meaning there is little demand to lower them, potentially forever pricing out those without substantial disposable incomes.

A dangerous move to elitism by accident?

David

I think what's likely is the development of new models will slow down in the next decade or two. Typically, older modellers have more disposable income, and younger modellers have less.

 

The older generation won't be around forever, and younger modellers will move onto other hobbies as they'll be priced out. Couple that to the fact that there will be fewer enthusiasts in general due to the stigma that surrounds it, and I'd say the long term outlook for railway modelling is bleak.

[Roy L S]

For me these prices are now no longer affordable. Even when I return to full time work after my PhD is completed, £240 for a 350 is still over the limit I’d be prepared to pay. It will have to be an extra special release to get me to spend that land on cash now (pendolino was an example of this).

 

What worries me even more though is that these price increases, for whatever their reasons, just don’t seem to be slowing the hobby down as we’ve been saying this over and over for the past 10 years. This means a lot of people are quite happy to pay such prices, meaning there is little demand to lower them, potentially forever pricing out those without substantial disposable incomes.

 

A dangerous move to elitism by accident?

 

David

 

Flagging the lowering of prices suggests that somehow there is capacity to do so.

 

I do baulk at some of the prices now and I comment as such, but deep down I accept that nobody in the supply chain is making a killing. If price reductions means selling at a loss then that is no business strategy at all in the longer term. 

 

I do wonder if especially in N some small element of a "design clever" approach (moulding on some details where possible rather than sticking on individual components) might simplify cost of manufacture and assembly to a degree without compromising quality, but of course those only represent a small proportion of the cost. 

 

Personally I can't see it being about elitism, it simply the reality we now face. I think the real problem is that for too long models were unsustainably cheap and now the true cost is coming through it is something of a shock. 

 

Roy

Edited March 4, 2018 by Roy L S

[Karhedron]

I do wonder if especially in N some small element of a "design clever" approach (moulding on some details where possible rather than sticking on individual components) might simplify cost of manufacture and assembly to a degree without compromising quality, but of course those only represent a small proportion of the cost.

To some extent this has already happened. Dapol learned after the Gresleys that making everything as separate components was expensive and didn't always lead to a big increase in quality. The Mk3s that followed represented a good balance between separate and moulded details. I would argue these represent "design clever". Where the Birdcages fall on the spectrum remains to be seen, I have not seen any detailed CADs.

[bmthtrains - David]

I'd be happy with a 'railroad' range in N if it means lower costs. it used to be that if you wanted to appreciate a beautifully detailed loco you'd model in OO, and if you wanted full length trains in the landscape, N. Now the N gauge models seem almost as detailed as OO ones, which makes them look great in magazine and online photos, but....running round a layout does a highly detailed (and expensive) Dapol Mk 3 coach look significantly better than a much cheaper older Farish one once you've stuck seats in it?

 

I'm well aware the price increases are not simply manufacturers fleecing us, the cost of making these models has risen dramatically over the past 15 years. But perhaps they need to take a note from toy manufacturers who start with the price point and design something that they can make a profit out of when sold at that price.

 

£80 rrrp for an intermodal wagon pair is quite horrifying when I think about it.

 

As I said before though, we moan about the constantly, yet it doesn't seem to affect anything - those that can afford to pay these prices will, the rest of us are just thankful we already have a decent collection of rolling stock. I do feel sorry for someone starting out in the hobby today though, and as Ash39 said above, it does suggest difficult times for the hobby if younger modellers are priced out.

 

David

[Zunnan]

My pre-order was cancelled as soon as I saw the revised prices. I'd already set the money aside for 12 of them based on the price of the Bulleids, but here is a limit which I simply will not cross; especially for models which are outside my usual modelling remit. I don't need them, but have fond memories of travelling on them. So, rather than spend on something that doesn't fit my modelling I've reallocated (some of) those funds towards items I actually do need. The NGS stands to do quite well now that some of the wagon kits are back in stock, but that also means there are dozens of RTR wagons I no longer need to buy as I''ll be filling those gaps in my fleet with more regionally specific models that fit my needs better than RTR products do.

[bigP]

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[TomE]

Bachmann said a few years back that to try and mitigate increasing costs, and as a result of new injection moulding techniques, they would reduce the number of separately fitted items such as handrails, door handles etc. The Birdcage stock employs moulded door handles and having seen the EPs close up you really wouldn't notice the difference in this scale. In fact it only becomes evident when photos are blown up to a size many times greater than the actual model on a monitor or in a magazine, so we are seeing some elements of better design applied to manage cost. Hornby's design clever exercise failed miserably by all accounts, so i'm not sure that would be a good example to follow. 

 

I've said it before, but we 'the modeller' need to bare some responsibility for the current situation of rising costs and reduced production in the market. Modellers for years were demanding higher quality, more accurate models in greater numbers which Bachamnn & Dapol happily provided, however to do so they had to move production to China in order to increase standards whilst maintaining price. Now we are facing a perfect storm of rising costs in China thanks to Government reforms, reduced spending power at home and capacity issues at the manufacturers. Low costs can no longer be maintained because factories have to pay their workers more, and people have less money to spend on luxury items meaning pricing will only go one way. Bachmann have made moves to add extra value to their models to counter this, DCC Sound, extra lighting features etc, whilst Dapol have expanded into other scales to compensate. Both have significantly reduced their output in N Gauge compared to 4 - 5 years ago as a result. That said, If you asked all of those who model in N Gauge if they wanted to go back to the days of printed coach bodies, or one coach body fits all types and regions, I suspect the majority would say no. I certainly would. 

 

I can understand how all of the above would make it look like N Gauge is struggling, but then we have the likes of RevolutioN and DJM who are bringing new models to the market using innovative new methods, and even allowing people to spread the cost over the development period rather than stumping up a lump sum in one go. This may well prove to be the future of how we buy our models in the face of rising costs. 

 

On the subject of a 'railroad' range for N Gauge, i'm not sure that's the answer. For a start I doubt much of the old Farish tooling is still viable, meaning Bachmann would have to spend more money developing such a range from scratch. More so Dapol, who only have a tiny number of older less detailed models to fall back on. It probably only works for Hornby because they have an extensive back catalogue of their own older tooling and the bulk of the Lima tooling which has recouped it's cost many times over already. I'd also be skeptical that designing something to be of 'railroad' standard would be any less expensive than designing a fully detailed model in N Gauge, especially if Bachamnn can make use of improved design and production techniques.

 

Tom.  

Edited March 5, 2018 by TomE

[Revolution Mike]

Balls - I closed the wrong tab and lost my reply!

 

I fear that all the arguments have been aired before so I'm not sure what new can be added to the discussion.

 

I don't see an easy solution to any of this, but for all the doom and gloom about increasing prices and falling markets we've had more available over the past decade than the previous 30-40 years in N.  Furthermore those worries have always been present, yet the hobby and scale have survived. N gauge has never been cheap, but the pressures (space) that make N attractive eg ability to model full trains in that small space) still exist.

 

There is not the size of market to support full featured and railroad style ranges in N, but the solution to that is to try and grow the market.  The difference in cost of new tooling for railroad v full featured wouldn't help matters as it wouldn't save you enough money to be meaningful yet at the same time would put off those who do want detail (not everyone views N at 6ft+).

Manufacturers are generally already trying to control costs where possible with an appropriate use of moulded vs separately fitted detail in most cases. 

 

Cheers, Mike

[justin1985]

 

Whilst I don't have the space at all for OO, I'm now giving serious consideration selling up my N and switching to OO, as at least it might still be around in twenty - thirty years. 

I persoanly think that the days of individuals having their own layouts and fully stocking them are coming to an end.  I can see us having more of the traditional club style/group of friends arrangement, where individually we may own a couple of trains, but ten of us together we can then afford to build and stock a layout.

 

Paul.

 

That is more than a bit far fetched! And frankly it is still a variation on the "hobby is dying out, no young people" moan that has been been trotted out for at least the last 50 years, despite the fact that in the last 15 we've "never had it so good". If the market reached the point that none of the major players were interested in N at all, I suspect it would be in a situation where we'd have more to worry about than toy trains.  

 

People change their minds, get frustrated with scales and change, smaller or larger, all of the time. And they tend to be pretty vocal about it when they do, which, especially on forums like this, exaggerates the picture. 

 

I think it is certainly true that Dapol had a "moment" in N gauge about 10 years ago, and considerably grew the market. They've now moved on to having a "moment" with O gauge, having realised that the margins must be much bigger, because the research costs are the same, tooling costs not dramatically more, and materials costs are insignificant anyway, but they can charge a lot more for a model. That is obviously grown the O gauge market. I'd argue both are "flashes in the pan" creating a sense that both scales are/were more popular than they really are in terms of committed long-term modellers.  

 

Chinese manufacture has given us a "golden age" of detailed models at low prices, which was never going to be sustainable. There is generally always going to be somewhere cheaper to move to, but perhaps not with the same level of skill available. Fleischmann's more basic models are now made in Vietnam. The rollercoaster of sterling exchange rates is probably going to be more of a risk over the next few years - but that's a whole different issue. 

 

The fundamental point is that most of the cost in producing a model is in research and design and tool making. If you're smart, you split as much of that cost as possible over multiple scales, as Bachmann has done for a long time. The marginal cost in producing a model in N as well as OO basically boils down to mechanism design and tool making. Modern spark-erosion toolmaking for injection moulding is clearly expensive, but it is an automated CAD\CAM process, and probably only likely to get cheaper over time. The point is, once you've done one scale, the bar for making it pay its way in another scale is much lower. 

 

I'm sure a lot of people expected that TT would be dead once the Berlin Wall came down, but actually it has had quite a resurgence in recent years. Not least because PIKO and a handful of other manufacturers active in that scale are able to share costs of new model development between all different scales since they've updated their product design to CAD\CAM methods.

 

As Tom has said, all over the world the market is moving towards smaller more specialist modelmakers (with lower overheads) commissioning small batch productions to very high standards. Not only RevolutioN and DJM, Realtrack, Accurascale etc., but in mainland Europe also LS Models, HispaTren, Startrain, and many others. In this camp N gauge is doing very well.

 

Additionally, you might also notice that the 3D printing segment of the hobby is also much stronger in N - mainly because the volume calculations which price the model make HO\OO exponentially more expensive! Shapeways might not be there yet with quality, but it is surely only a matter of time. 

 

J

[Revolution Mike]

One other thought - price is a funny thing, particularly for discretionary spending like hobbies.  We all tend to have price points that trigger certain feelings that something is getting too expensive or no longer value for money - the problem is that those price points vary for each individual and can risk being a bit arbitrary.  We accept that essentials often increase in price over time, though technology also has the benefit of reducing prices in some consumer sectors eg mass market electronics.