Cupboard doors on wagons

[merlinxlili]

Here is a little detailed question for the experts.

The planks on wooden open goods wagons were supported by iron corner plates and strapping. But what about the archaic cupboard door which opened sideways? I am thinking here about County Down opens. The planks on these doors were horizontal and only the top and bottom and planks were supported by the horizontal strapping from the hinges. So what prevented the middle two planks from bursting outwards from a load of coal? The only possibilities I can think of are vertical iron straps on the inside of the door – but there is no sign of securing bolts on the outside of the doors, or iron strapping on the sides of the doors – but I believe it is not good practice to drive in screws parallel with the grain. This question is probably relevant as well to classic cattle wagons with a composite 3-door arrangement.

Any good advice please?

[Johnsy]

Here is a little detailed question for the experts.

The planks on wooden open goods wagons were supported by iron corner plates and strapping. But what about the archaic cupboard door which opened sideways? I am thinking here about County Down opens. The planks on these doors were horizontal and only the top and bottom and planks were supported by the horizontal strapping from the hinges. So what prevented the middle two planks from bursting outwards from a load of coal? The only possibilities I can think of are vertical iron straps on the inside of the door – but there is no sign of securing bolts on the outside of the doors, or iron strapping on the sides of the doors – but I believe it is not good practice to drive in screws parallel with the grain. This question is probably relevant as well to classic cattle wagons with a composite 3-door arrangement.

Any good advice please?

Cupboard door goods wagons and mineral wagons were very widely used in Scotland (they are very rarely modelled!).  There were examples with vertical door planking and others that had horizontal door planks to match the body.

 

It may not have been universal, but one construction method for horizontal door planks utilised an internal door lining of vertical planks that were bolted (screwed?) to the top and bottom straps from the hinges.  

 

 

[sir douglas]

just like on other wagons like the RCH 12 tonners, there is a diagonal strap on the inside, you can see the bolt heads for it on this photo

 

[merlinxlili]

Thank you for your replies! The door planks on the Loughgelly wagon would have been nicely supported by the hinge straps. However the Lanemark and GS&W wagons illustrate my concerns well - the middle two horizontal door planks appear to be hanging in the air. As Sir Douglas writes, the GS&W wagon illustrates the sort of bolt heads I would expect if vertical iron straps were used internally to support the middle of the doors, and these are absent. Therefore I conclude that Johnsy's point about a second layer of vertical planking on the inside would be the most likely explanation. Most of the load would have been carried by the inside planks and so bolts would only be needed through the hinge straps, while the middle two outside planks could be supported by only screws. Maybe such wagons should be modelled with double thickness cupboard doors, compared with the rest of the wagon body?

[sir douglas]

i just realised that you meant the middle planks on the doors

 

i cant be bothered now since im going to bed soon but tomorrow i'll have a look through my private owner books tomorrow to see if there are any photos with open doors

 

just looked through what pics ive got on the computer and found some with vertical planking on the doors,

 

- north british

- 10ton of "F.G & co Newmilns" (i'm not going to post the pic since its got a ebay watermark)

- "Edinburgh colliery company limited"

- "William Bar & son Hamilton"

[sir douglas]

i had look through the books and none hd their doors open but since then , i borrowed some caledonian wagon drawings from a friend to scan, one of them a cupboard door type with a section drawing through the door showing vertical planking inside

[merlinxlili]

Well done SirD! - I think that this is at least one feasible explanation, which I will use.

I would also mention that I have seen on at least one (very poor) photograph iron strapping on the inside of some open wagons, in addition to that on the outside. Of course this is not visible on most photographs, so we remain blissfully ignorant.......

[Compound2632]

Don't forget that what really holds the sides of these wagons together are the side knees (and end knees for an end-door wagon) - very substantial L-shaped pieces of iron bolted to the frame cross-members; the upright parts being prominent on the inside of the wagon. Most of the ironwork on the outside - what we call "strapping" is really just glorified washer plates. Apologies that I can't at the moment locate a good photo.

 

The hinges for the side doors are an exception - they are usually of thicker iron (sometimes tapering in thickness away from the hinge) with "washer plate" strips on the inside of the door.

[merlinxlili]

Compound,

 

Exactly! I have seen a few examples of ironwork on the inside of open wagons in photographs, but all the proprietary RTR models appear to be bare on the inside, It would be a nice touch of individuality to include at least a representation of these. Many thanks for your contribution. 

[Nearholmer]

Probably irrelevant here, but a lot early continental wagons, before steel-framing became the norm, had the planking at 45 degrees, with another lot at 45-degrees inside, making a very strong construction with two layers of thinnish planks. Some export orders from this country were built like that, and double-sheathed boxcars were common at one period in the US, so maybe the ‘one thick plank’ model favoured in Britain wasn’t ‘normal’ on a world scale.

 

Thinking about it, weren’t some very early wagons in this country built with 45-degree planking?

[Spitfire2865]

Probably irrelevant here, but a lot early continental wagons, before steel-framing became the norm, had the planking at 45 degrees, with another lot at 45-degrees inside, making a very strong construction with two layers of thinnish planks. Some export orders from this country were built like that, and double-sheathed boxcars were common at one period in the US, so maybe the ‘one thick plank’ model favoured in Britain wasn’t ‘normal’ on a world scale.

 

Thinking about it, weren’t some very early wagons in this country built with 45-degree planking?

American wooden boxcars were built similar to a wooden house frame, making the preceding term HouseCar quite accurate actually.  The Sheathing was simply the part of the wall that kept the outside out and attributed little to the strength.  Single Sheathed cars were common around the turn of the century but Double Sheathed looked a lot nicer and was probably a lot easier to letter and keep clean(ish).

 

From what Ive gathered from UK practices,  the only thing that was similar was some pregrouping vans with prominent framework such as Midland practice.  Even then the similarities end there.  The engineering behind it was vastly different.  Not to mention many UK vans did have planks in two directions.  L&Y vans for example.  But those were for weatherproofing, not structure.   

But the American practice was necessary for 40' car lengths.  It was effectively a truss bridge on wheels.  

 

For an entire vehicle, 45 degree planking would probably weaken the integrity of the structure.  

[Spitfire2865]

Don't forget that what really holds the sides of these wagons together are the side knees (and end knees for an end-door wagon) - very substantial L-shaped pieces of iron bolted to the frame cross-members; the upright parts being prominent on the inside of the wagon. Most of the ironwork on the outside - what we call "strapping" is really just glorified washer plates. Apologies that I can't at the moment locate a good photo.

 

The hinges for the side doors are an exception - they are usually of thicker iron (sometimes tapering in thickness away from the hinge) with "washer plate" strips on the inside of the door.

Its quite amazing how much a wagon is held together by the end posts and knees.  Its a tub bolted to a frame and both would be strong structures in themselves apart.  

[Johnsy]

American wooden boxcars were built similar to a wooden house frame, making the preceding term HouseCar quite accurate actually.  The Sheathing was simply the part of the wall that kept the outside out and attributed little to the strength.  Single Sheathed cars were common around the turn of the century but Double Sheathed looked a lot nicer and was probably a lot easier to letter and keep clean(ish).

 

From what Ive gathered from UK practices,  the only thing that was similar was some pregrouping vans with prominent framework such as Midland practice.  Even then the similarities end there.  The engineering behind it was vastly different.  Not to mention many UK vans did have planks in two directions.  L&Y vans for example.  But those were for weatherproofing, not structure.   

But the American practice was necessary for 40' car lengths.  It was effectively a truss bridge on wheels.  

 

For an entire vehicle, 45 degree planking would probably weaken the integrity of the structure.  

I do not know of any examples of 45 degree planking on an entire vehicle, but here is a wagon with diagonal planking on cupboard doors.

 

There must have been some reason for this, since the end result is a rather complicated door structure with the diagonal planking, heavy external wood frame and (?) vertical internal planking as well.

 

If I feel particularly brave (and can find the livery) I would like to build this some day.  HMRS have a couple of photos of this wagon and the Caledonian Railway Association have a proper drawing.