Colman's wagons, real and model

[Compound2632]

Interesting. Who's going to break it to James that he'll have to scratchbuild and hand-livery twenty of these?

[jim.snowdon]

The "Coleman's Mustard Traffic" branding has me fantasising a similar van more appropriate to my Birmingham area interests, "Bird's Custard Traffic" - with red, yellow and blue bands, more shocking than this old Lima toy. I'm still frustrated that there's no evidence that Lea & Perrins, of 3 Midland Road, Worcester, owned any wagons...

 

Shouldn't the custard tanks be in tanks - 6-wheeled for Express Custard?

 

Jim

[PaulG]

 there must be at least one other photo about, of No. 19, 

[Compound2632]

Same builder and design; same lettering style but red ironwork. End door too - point to Hornby.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

Interesting. Who's going to break it to James that he'll have to scratchbuild and hand-livery twenty of these?

 

Well, I was aware of the box van, but had discounted it because it was 1908. CA is supposed to be circa 1905 and, anyway, is clearly set in a parallel universe, so I could stretch a point, but had thought not to on this occasion.

 

Now you tempt me with the idea of a 'seed train' of yellow vans departing CA.  Well, there needs to be a local seed merchant in the station yard, but, I confess, I had not envisaged bulk supplies for Carrow Works! 

 

The earlier, non-RCH '23, open is a new one on me, though. 

 

The picture posted earlier and on the BBC site is captioned 'seed train'.  The apparently 1896 view is, I believe, of sheeted cattle wagons.

 

Someone was asking about locomotives. The picture below is from the Daily Mosley's website.  Someone asked about locomotives, and this fireless one is certainly not yellow! Highly combustible, Coleman's Mustard, as we know. It also features box vans, though looking a little worn by this stage.  'This stage' is said to be 1890.  In order for that to be correct, everything we think we know about Great Western wagons would need to be incorrect for starters.  I would place the shot between the wars.  Can't believe everything you read in a newspaper, apparently.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Edwardian

[Nearholmer]

Milling can be highly explosive, let alone flammable.

 

Get the right/wrong amount of flour dust in the air, and one spark will blow the place to smithereens. Many mills went that way, and they were latterly designed with ‘blow out panels’, as well as better filtration.

[Mark Saunders]

Well, I was aware of the box van, but had discounted it because it was 1908. CA is supposed to be circa 1905 and, anyway, is clearly set in a parallel universe, so I could stretch a point, but had thought not to on this occasion.

 

Now you tempt me with the idea of a 'seed train' of yellow vans departing CA.  Well, there needs to be a local seed merchant in the station yard, but, I confess, I had not envisaged bulk supplies for Carrow Works! 

 

The earlier, non-RCH '23, open is a new one on me, though. 

 

The picture posted earlier and on the BBC site is captioned 'seed train'.  The apparently 1896 view is, I believe, of sheeted cattle wagons.

 

Someone was asking about locomotives. The picture below is from the Daily Mosley's website.  Someone asked about locomotives, and this fireless one is certainly not yellow! Highly combustible, Coleman's Mustard, as we know. It also features box vans, though looking a little worn by this stage.  'This stage' is said to be 1890.  In order for that to be correct, everything we think we know about Great Western wagons would need to be incorrect for starters.  I would place the shot between the wars.  Can't believe everything you read in a newspaper, apparently.

The vans appear to be very similar to the ICI salt Vans built in 1941 of which there is one at Cottesmore and there are two others elsewhere.

 

Mark Saunders

[asmay2002]

Someone was asking about locomotives. The picture below is from the Daily Mosley's website.  Someone asked about locomotives, and this fireless one is certainly not yellow! Highly combustible, Coleman's Mustard, as we know. It also features box vans, though looking a little worn by this stage.  'This stage' is said to be 1890.  In order for that to be correct, everything we think we know about Great Western wagons would need to be incorrect for starters.  I would place the shot between the wars.  Can't believe everything you read in a newspaper, apparently.

Colmans bought Andrew Barclay Fireless loco WN1944 new in 1927.  It was named "Gamma" as per the loco in the photo.

[wagonman]

 

 there must be at least one other photo about, of No. 19, 

 

 

 

That reminds me: some builders – in particular Hurst Nelson and Pickerings for some reason – would paint wagons in an imaginary livery when they were toutig for business. There is no guarantee the wagon ever entered service in this livery, but when I have time I'll have a look through the GER registers to see if there is anything likely lurking there.

 

Richard

[Compound2632]

Those do look the same Harrison & Camm vans. The first open wagon looks to be branded N E. The amount of cabling stung along the walls points to a date when electrically operated machinery was commonplace - all of which agrees with the date of the loco. Colmans seem to have been into fireless locos a few years ahead of Huntley & Palmers.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

So, here is the seed train the right way around.

 

You can see that there are 16 of these Colman wagons visible, and they read "Mustard Traffic", like the preserved example.

[Compound2632]

You can see that there are 16 of these Colman wagons visible, and they read "Mustard Traffic", like the preserved example.

 

Or perhaps one should say, like the single example in the (Harrison & Camm official?) photo posted earlier, upon which the livery of the preserved example is presumably based. (Note the additional ironwork along the side rail of the preserved van.) 

 

For roof colour fetishists, why is the roof of the eighth van so much darker than all the rest, if they're all from the same batch? I'd assume the photo showed them soon after delivery, for publicity purposes.

[jim.snowdon]

That reminds me: some builders – in particular Hurst Nelson and Pickerings for some reason – would paint wagons in an imaginary livery when they were toutig for business. There is no guarantee the wagon ever entered service in this livery, but when I have time I'll have a look through the GER registers to see if there is anything likely lurking there.

 

Richard

There is no guarantee that the vans were on the GER private owner registers - much depends on where they were built, as it is more than likely they were registered with the railway company local to the builders. The registration of private owner's wagons was mtually accepted by all of the main line railways, and really only served as evidence that it had been inspected as being built to the RCH specifications.

 

Those do look the same Harrison & Camm vans. The first open wagon looks to be branded N E. The amount of cabling stung along the walls points to a date when electrically operated machinery was commonplace - all of which agrees with the date of the loco. Colmans seem to have been into fireless locos a few years ahead of Huntley & Palmers.

The fact that the GW wagons has only single side brakes also puts a nominal limit on the date of the photograph of 1930, as the GWR issued an order to convert the remaining examples of these wagons to eiter side brakes in 1927. The wagon behind appears to be an LNWR van, still in a dark livery, which would suggest that it has not yet been repained into LMS grey, which would suggest the mid- to late-1920s as likely, given the NE wagon has to be post-1923.

 

Jim

[asmay2002]

The fact that the GW wagons has only single side brakes also puts a nominal limit on the date of the photograph of 1930, as the GWR issued an order to convert the remaining examples of these wagons to eiter side brakes in 1927. The wagon behind appears to be an LNWR van, still in a dark livery, which would suggest that it has not yet been repained into LMS grey, which would suggest the mid- to late-1920s as likely, given the NE wagon has to be post-1923.

Given the loco was built in 1927 and the GW wagon places a latest date of 1930 the date of the photo must be in this window.  I wonder if the photo was taken when the loco was brand new i.e 1927?

[Compound2632]

The wagon behind appears to be an LNWR van, still in a dark livery, which would suggest that it has not yet been repained into LMS grey, 

 

I don't disagree with the general dating but I think I spy an E half-hidden behind the right-hand door of that van. Lead based greys of that period darken with exposure to atmospheric pollution, so the apparent shade is no guide.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Compound2632

[jim.snowdon]

I don't disagree with the general dating but I think I spy an E half-hidden behind the right-hand door of that van. Lead based greys of that period darken with exposure to atmospheric pollution, so the apparent shade is no guide.

Looking at it again, you have a point, and it is possible that the van in question is a NER example.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Not sure of copyright owner but manufacturers image of 7-plank and van.

 

Colmans_35.jpg

 

Sorry to bring this up again but I've just been squinting closely at the label at the LH end of wagon No.35, a Harrison & Camm wagon after overhaul by the Gloucester C&W Co. The top line reads "Empty to"; the follwing lines are unclear but I believe the bottom line reads "Gurnos Mid Rly". This might give a clue to deciphering the rest of the inscription which doubtless includes a colliery name. However, with this information we can conclude that (a) this wagon livery came in before 1923 and (b) the mustard manufacturing process required anthracite.

[Il Grifone]

The coal wagon appears to be to the 1907 RCH specification. The iron work and underframe appear to be red. It is a different tone to the black lettering, which presumably is shaded red and white. The Hornby 00 wagon is liveried like this (but not the right wagon!).

 

Colmans probably only needed one coal wagon, but would have needed a van (or two) for every delivery destination throughout the country. They would not necessarily have been fully loaded of course.

 

Hornby's van is here

 

https://www.vectis.co.uk/Hornby-o-gauge-rare-inch-colmans-inch-mustard-van_603318

 

I trust I'm not giving away trade secrets - it made £240.

 

Powsides do the coal wagon in 4mm and 7mm.

 

http://www.powsides.co.uk/www.powsides.co.uk/info.php?p=5

Edited April 24, 2018 by Il Grifone

[jim.snowdon]

The coal wagon appears to be to the 1907 RCH specification. The iron work and underframe appear to be red. It is a different tone to the black lettering, which presumably is shaded red and white. The Hornby 00 wagon is liveried like this (but not the right wagon!).

 

Colmans probably only needed one coal wagon, but would have needed a van (or two) for every delivery destination throughout the country. They would not necessarily have been fully loaded of course.

 

Hornby's van is here

 

https://www.vectis.co.uk/Hornby-o-gauge-rare-inch-colmans-inch-mustard-van_603318

 

I trust I'm not giving away trade secrets - it made £240.

 

Powsides do the coal wagon in 4mm and 7mm.

 

http://www.powsides.co.uk/www.powsides.co.uk/info.php?p=5

The wagon is to the 1907 standards, but my interpretation of the picture is that the underframe and ironwork are the same colour as the rest of the bodywork. I would expect Colmans to have had rather more than one coal wagon. Given the pace at which mineral wagons moved round the railways, including all the time stood waiting in sidings, I suspect a wagon would be lucky to do the round trip from Norwich to the colliery and back inside a week and Colmans works probably went through rather more than 10 tons of coal in a week.

 

Jim

[Nearholmer]

If you read back over the thread, you will see that we have the coal wagon in two liveries, with and without red washer plates, at different dates.

[Il Grifone]

I've just noticed that the coal wagons are nos. 19 and 35, so they must have had at least two (I intended to alter 'probably' to 'possibly)'. The later one shows a decision to simplify the livery and cut costs?

 

The tone of the underframe of 19 is different from the solebar, which appears darker as most is in shadow apart from a strip at the bottom. (I thought it was a steel underframe at first but closer observation showed it's actually wood. Hornby (as in Tri-ang) clearly think it was red. (The black underframe of the 1923 van is irrelevant - Hornby's 1920's liveries are far from reliable - I have a GWR brake van with gold lettering!)

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/20755/Hornby_R6345_Colman_s_Mustard_Works_end_tipping_wagon/StockDetail.aspx

[PeterR]

Hi,

 

Trundling through EBAY found this link  

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-DUBLO-VAN-CONVERSION-TRANSFERS-COLMANS-MUSTARD-LHP-HD010-/160540354724

 

I know nothing about it! 

[Nearholmer]

That’s a nice pastiche. Do you do them for 0 as well? K

[Nearholmer]

Reopening discussion, prompted by a discussion elsewhere.

 

Above, it was suggested that the wagon label on the coal wagon was showing "empty to Gurnos".

 

Well, here is a photo of the relevant colliery at the relevant date (second picture down) https://ystradpast.weebly.com/collieries.html

 

what is the view of the community on the ninth wagon back in the long line of wagons?

[Compound2632]

what is the view of the community on the ninth wagon back in the long line of wagons?

 

I think one would need to look at a higher-resolution image or the negative itself. What is the date of the photo?

 

The wagon in question is certainly a much lighter shade than any of the others. 

 

I spy a Midland D299 wagon on the right - hardly surprising as we're in Midland territory here.