Bulleid Coaches

[45568]

And an outing for a Lord Nelson - https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SR-4-6-0s/i-T4HLDm9

 

Those C/Cream Mk1s look very clean for a 1957 shot?

 

Cheers from Oz,

 

Peter C.

[RFS]

And an outing for a Lord Nelson - https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SR-4-6-0s/i-T4HLDm9

 

Those C/Cream Mk1s look very clean for a 1957 shot?

 

Cheers from Oz,

 

Peter C.

 

There was a carriage washing plant at Bournemouth West at the time and the Bournemouth Belle stock was also kept very clean as a result. 

[Dunsignalling]

And an outing for a Lord Nelson - https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SR-4-6-0s/i-T4HLDm9

 

Those C/Cream Mk1s look very clean for a 1957 shot?

 

Cheers from Oz,

 

Peter C.

That was pretty much normal for front-line Southern Region corridor stock at that period. Plenty of grime below the solebars, though

 

John

Edited January 17, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Chuffed 1]

I'd certainly prefer a green closer to that found on Hornby's Maunsells to be used on BR green releases of these coaches rather than the odd very dark shade Bachmann adopted a few years ago for southern region mark 1 vehicles, particularly given that I assume sets of both would have regularly appeared with each other.

I use to be of the same opinion until I recently scanned through Gerald T Robinson's Photostream SR album. Not only is there a background shot of a Maunsell corridor coach in the same green in a 1960 shot of Lord StVincent at Eastleigh, a later (1966) shot of 34005 Barnstaple at Bournemouth has a rake of dark green Mk1's immediately behind it.  No mistake, no question of film degradation or inherent colour bias, the stock almost matches the Pacific for colour and shade.

Contrast this with a later shot of 34034 Honiton passing Laira in 1961 - here the Mk1's are distinctly lighter in colour, somewhat akin to Hornby's SR green, quite different to the loco green.

From scanning innumerable photos on innumerable sites/books, I have gained the impression that Eastleigh changed coach green sometime in 1960, the new, darker green even spreading to the IoW. Obviously most of this repainting would have been of crimson & cream stock, as well as vehicles still in original Southern green. Withdrawals of Maunsell stock during the early sixties would have left a preponderance of darker green coaches by the end of steam/repainting into BR blue & grey.

I suppose it depends what era you are modelling. Dark green would be inappropriate for a 50's line, lighter green less common by '67.

[ed 66 plant]

Full details of the Initial proposed releases of newly tooled Bulleid coaches including Diagram, Set and Coach numbers (where known) can be found here https://grahammuz.com/2018/01/07/Bachmann-2018-19-range-announcements-includes-new-tooled-lbsc-h1-and-bulleid-63ft-coaching-stock-in-00/

Graham----will the open third follow in due course and will that make a better match with the new Hornby Maunsell Kitchen restaurant ?

regards,Ed

[RFS]

These pictures provide an interesting comparison, although I suspect the first picture of 34034 may be  passing Laira in brighter sun?  However the later Bournemouth picture is defimnitely a darker green.  Did Eastleigh start using later EMU green for loco-hauled stock?

 

Here are the picture URLs - 

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/6313148260/in/album-72157627153329734/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/6757688969/in/album-72157627153329734/

 

And another picture shows a Bulleid brake with a roundel, presumably from its use on the Royal Wessex

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/6067412274/in/album-72157627153329734/

Edited January 25, 2018 by RFS

[RFS]

Having looked at the Gerald T Robinson's photos again it would seem to me the picture of 34005 at Bournemouth is perhaps affected by loss of colour on the rendition? 34005 looks almost grey. I've taken the liberty of downloading it here from his Flickr site, and then enhanced the colour by simply using Windows Photos and moving the colour bar to the right. Photos of course retain his copyright.

 

Here's the original -

 

 

And now the same photo again but with colour and brightness enhanced.  Does the Brunswick Green on 34005 look good to you - it does to me.  Now look at the colour of the coaches.  Deeper colour but not as deep as Bachmann's models, although the composite behind the brake does look a deeper green.  The foliage is quite bright now, but it is the first week in June so you would expect it to be lush.

 

Edited January 25, 2018 by RFS

[truffy]

And now the same photo again but with colour and brightness enhanced.  Does the Brunswick Green on 34005 look good to you - it does to me.  Now look at the colour of the coaches.  

 

 

I don't think that that's a reasonable comparison, because the planes of the loco/tender surfaces are different to those of the coaches, both relative to the viewer and light sources. The boiler, for example, is reflecting much more of the sky blue than the coaches.

Edited January 25, 2018 by truffy

[Chuffed 1]

Having looked at the Gerald T Robinson's photos again it would seem to me the picture of 34005 at Bournemouth is perhaps affected by loss of colour on the rendition? 34005 looks almost grey. I've taken the liberty of downloading it here from his Flickr site, and then enhanced the colour by simply using Windows Photos and moving the colour bar to the right. Photos of course retain his copyright.

 

Here's the original -

 

C1.jpg

 

And now the same photo again but with colour and brightness enhanced.  Does the Brunswick Green on 34005 look good to you - it does to me.  Now look at the colour of the coaches.  Deeper colour but not as deep as Bachmann's models, although the composite behind the brake does look a deeper green.  The foliage is quite bright now, but it is the first week in June so you would expect it to be lush.

 

C2.jpg

I see what you're getting at but I think you've overdone the enhancement a bit - grass would be unlikely to be that light-coloured unless it had been covered for a period or during mid-winter when there's less photosynthesis.  Even so, as you say, the composite definitely appears darker than the lead coach.

I don't know if you have a copy of Keith Pirt's Steam Colour Portfolio (southern & western lines)?  It's a great book for late-fifties, early-sixties colour shots and I believe most photos are good quality Kodachrome 35mm and the colours appear generally accurate. On page 36 there's a shot of Calbourne leaving Ryde St Johns, and behind the loco there's a freshly painted brake 2nd in the same dark green (again, it's not far off BR loco dark green.  Most of the rest of the SR passenger stock is very close to Hornby coach green, except for page 11, 'T9 at Wadebridge' (1962) where the second coach of set 24 once again appears dark green, certainly darker than the following stock.

I'm sure, given the time, there would be more obvious disparities available to compare.

[Chuffed 1]

Additional to my last, the shots of 34005 looking grey probably has nothing to do with the colour rendition of the image and everything to do with the ash that covers every horizontal surface!

[RFS]

Additional to my last, the shots of 34005 looking grey probably has nothing to do with the colour rendition of the image and everything to do with the ash that covers every horizontal surface!

 

The greyish colour can often be due to the deterioration of 50-year old negatives especially when they have been scanned.  If you just browse through the full album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/albums/72157627153329734) many of the coaches appear quite dark or grey.  This is a classic example: no amount of digital enhancement will make the coaches green.  And they're not dirty as evidenced by the reflections of the lineside boxes on the front of the first coach.

 

[dibber25]

All that this succession of photos demonstrates is that you can't trust photographs for judging colours accurately. You never could because of the vagaries of film and processing, and now that they can be endlessly tampered with by computer it's even more unsafe to trust them. Plus, computers need to be correctly calibrated and even then you're looking at light coming through the subject rather than light reflected off it. For my money - and I spent a lot of time train-spotting on the Southern in the early 1960s:

Locos were 'Swindon' green and don't enter the equation.

Loco-hauled stock and EMUs were the same colour.

Hornby's green is close to what I remember.

There may have been some coaches in a darker shade later on but it wasn't 'loco green' and there weren't that many.

Blue and grey came in very quickly after 1964, particularly as the SR swapped Mk1s and some Bulleids with other regions in order to get hands on the best Mk1s for conversion to EMUs. 

(CJL)

[Chuffed 1]

The greyish colour can often be due to the deterioration of 50-year old negatives especially when they have been scanned.  If you just browse through the full album (https://www.flickr.com/photos/64215236@N03/albums/72157627153329734) many of the coaches appear quite dark or grey.  This is a classic example: no amount of digital enhancement will make the coaches green.  And they're not dirty as evidenced by the reflections of the lineside boxes on the front of the first coach.

 

C1.jpg

 

Understand, but not in the case of the Barnstaple photo shown above, where even in the unaltered image the coaches are shown as clear and bright. As Southern Region locos weren't repainted a different green during the 1960's, even allowing for dirt and shine, it is clear that tender and cab sides (a direct comparable as they are on similar planes) are clearly a much darker shade, in comparison, than some coaches, but in other cases the two greens are less different, thereby suggesting that after a certain point the coaches were painted a different green.

As most Southern stock ran in fairly fixed sets, and those sets were usually repainted as a set, it is only when later-painted sets ran in conjunction with earlier-type green sets, or different-coloured loose stock were incorporated into a train, that the anomaly is evident.

I may be wrong; it might be a whole range of reasons, from colour deterioration of the original slides/negatives, dirt, shine, the effects of sun or weather, but I doubt whether this would lead to such a clear disparity between earlier and later-painted stock.

I believe that neither Bachmann nor Hornby are wrong in their choice of Southern coach green, merely that both are correct during a certain time-frame, and that it is ourselves who have wrongly assumed that there was only ever one Southern Region coaching stock green!

[Chuffed 1]

All that this succession of photos demonstrates is that you can't trust photographs for judging colours accurately. You never could because of the vagaries of film and processing, and now that they can be endlessly tampered with by computer it's even more unsafe to trust them. Plus, computers need to be correctly calibrated and even then you're looking at light coming through the subject rather than light reflected off it. For my money - and I spent a lot of time train-spotting on the Southern in the early 1960s:

Locos were 'Swindon' green and don't enter the equation.

Loco-hauled stock and EMUs were the same colour.

Hornby's green is close to what I remember.

There may have been some coaches in a darker shade later on but it wasn't 'loco green' and there weren't that many.

Blue and grey came in very quickly after 1964, particularly as the SR swapped Mk1s and some Bulleids with other regions in order to get hands on the best Mk1s for conversion to EMUs. 

(CJL)

 Agree entirely. After all, if there was a colour change to a darker green, which I believe, it would have been piecemeal for about three and a half years before corporate blue replaced it.

[Nick C]

It could also be that the formulation of the paint, undercoat or varnish changed, any of which would give the impression of a different shade - paint that has been rubbed down and varnished a couple of times looks darker than that freshly applied, for example...

[Chuffed 1]

It could also be that the formulation of the paint, undercoat or varnish changed, any of which would give the impression of a different shade - paint that has been rubbed down and varnished a couple of times looks darker than that freshly applied, for example...

Which of course makes Bachmann's darker green equally valid!

[Chuffed 1]

Mulling over the previous comments, a couple of points have sprung to mind. Precision Paints SR Coach Green is very close to the Bachmann darker green - having resprayed one of the darker green coaches I was a tad surprised to see it come out more or less the same colour. Clearly Bachmann and Precision were spraying from the same colour chart! 

As I remembered SR stock it seemed the Hornby green was closer, so I switched to Precision Paints Electric Green for the rest of the stock and was pleased with the result. However, on respraying a crimson & cream Maunsell I found the lighter shade required several coats to cover the crimson in particular, which has led me to the thought, did the Southern Region use a darker green to repaint crimson and crimson & cream stock?

This might account for the fact that there seemed to be no darker green repaints after early 1963  (or none that I can find examples of newly painted).

[Graham_Muz]

Graham----will the open third follow in due course and will that make a better match with the new Hornby Maunsell Kitchen restaurant ?

regards,Ed

I am not aware of any future toolings that might occur. The Hornby Maunsell Open third would make a better pairing with the Kitchen Restaurant anyway

[2ManySpams]

I use to be of the same opinion until I recently scanned through Gerald T Robinson's Photostream SR album. Not only is there a background shot of a Maunsell corridor coach in the same green in a 1960 shot of Lord StVincent at Eastleigh, a later (1966) shot of 34005 Barnstaple at Bournemouth has a rake of dark green Mk1's immediately behind it.  No mistake, no question of film degradation or inherent colour bias, the stock almost matches the Pacific for colour and shade.

Contrast this with a later shot of 34034 Honiton passing Laira in 1961 - here the Mk1's are distinctly lighter in colour, somewhat akin to Hornby's SR green, quite different to the loco green.

From scanning innumerable photos on innumerable sites/books, I have gained the impression that Eastleigh changed coach green sometime in 1960, the new, darker green even spreading to the IoW. Obviously most of this repainting would have been of crimson & cream stock, as well as vehicles still in original Southern green. Withdrawals of Maunsell stock during the early sixties would have left a preponderance of darker green coaches by the end of steam/repainting into BR blue & grey.

I suppose it depends what era you are modelling. Dark green would be inappropriate for a 50's line, lighter green less common by '67.

 

Don't forget that coaches were not regularly repainted and that between proper strip-down and repaints the paintwork was maintained by applying varnish. I think the original coach green got progressively darker with each coat of varnish. Also don't forget the green changed colour or time through exposure to sunlight (got slightly bluer?). 

 

There are now quite a few 'in colour' type books, some looking just at coaches. My own conclusions were that there isn't a singe correct shade of green and a range of greens would be appropriate for coaches on a layout. That said the colour used by Bachmann on their first releases of the Bulleid coaches was IMO too light/yellow and that the more resent releases have been way too dark. 

 

Both Railmatch and Precision spray paints, as well as the colour used on the Hornby coaches, appear to fall between the two Bachmann extremes and look better to my eyes. I do think that the Hornby Maunsells could do with a bit more of a sheen and I have been meaning to try polishing one up with T-cut or similar for a while. 

[adb968008]

Having looked at the Gerald T Robinson's photos again it would seem to me the picture of 34005 at Bournemouth is perhaps affected by loss of colour on the rendition? 34005 looks almost grey. I've taken the liberty of downloading it here from his Flickr site, and then enhanced the colour by simply using Windows Photos and moving the colour bar to the right. Photos of course retain his copyright.

 

Here's the original -

 

C1.jpg

 

And now the same photo again but with colour and brightness enhanced.  Does the Brunswick Green on 34005 look good to you - it does to me.  Now look at the colour of the coaches.  Deeper colour but not as deep as Bachmann's models, although the composite behind the brake does look a deeper green.  The foliage is quite bright now, but it is the first week in June so you would expect it to be lush.

 

C2.jpg

 

Its definitely gone from a  grey day to a sunny one.

[dibber25]

Mulling over the previous comments, a couple of points have sprung to mind. Precision Paints SR Coach Green is very close to the Bachmann darker green - having resprayed one of the darker green coaches I was a tad surprised to see it come out more or less the same colour. Clearly Bachmann and Precision were spraying from the same colour chart! 

As I remembered SR stock it seemed the Hornby green was closer, so I switched to Precision Paints Electric Green for the rest of the stock and was pleased with the result. However, on respraying a crimson & cream Maunsell I found the lighter shade required several coats to cover the crimson in particular, which has led me to the thought, did the Southern Region use a darker green to repaint crimson and crimson & cream stock?

This might account for the fact that there seemed to be no darker green repaints after early 1963  (or none that I can find examples of newly painted).

 

I doubt that many coaches, if any, went from crimson and cream straight to dark green. By my 'spotting days' in 1962 I don't recall ever seeing a crimson and cream coach in a Southern express. Everything was uniform green. By the time that 'dark green' would have appeared, the SR had had autonomy to apply green for at least 8 years and they weren't slow to do so. And in those days, flat undercoats were used to blot out the previous colour. It would not have been accepted practice to use a top coat shade to block out what was underneath.  (CJL)

[sandwich station]

so I switched to Precision Paints Electric Green for the rest of the stock and was pleased with the result. However, on respraying a crimson & cream Maunsell I found the lighter shade required several coats to cover the crimson in particular,

 

Red or anything close to it bleeds through other colours. When I was a paint sprayer many years ago, we had to use a bleed seal on red before spraying undercoat to stop it from happening.

[Bulleidnutter]

I doubt that many coaches, if any, went from crimson and cream straight to dark green. By my 'spotting days' in 1962 I don't recall ever seeing a crimson and cream coach in a Southern express. Everything was uniform green. By the time that 'dark green' would have appeared, the SR had had autonomy to apply green for at least 8 years and they weren't slow to do so. And in those days, flat undercoats were used to blot out the previous colour. It would not have been accepted practice to use a top coat shade to block out what was underneath.  (CJL)

As I understand it. The Southern region would send a complete set to either Lancing or Eastleigh and it would all be repainted at the same time. The loose coaches were done at their shopping date hence the possible mix of liveries.

[2ManySpams]

As I understand it. The Southern region would send a complete set to either Lancing or Eastleigh and it would all be repainted at the same time. The loose coaches were done at their shopping date hence the possible mix of liveries.

I think that was the general idea but the make up of Southern sets was not static and some changed quite a bit over time. Also, for instance, you would have three coach sets (BSK, CK, BSK) which would be strengthened every summer with an SO or SK either side of the CK.

 

As such mixed finishes and liveries were quite possible and turned up reasonably frequently in photos.

[RFS]

I think that was the general idea but the make up of Southern sets was not static and some changed quite a bit over time. Also, for instance, you would have three coach sets (BSK, CK, BSK) which would be strengthened every summer with an SO or SK either side of the CK.

 

As such mixed finishes and liveries were quite possible and turned up reasonably frequently in photos.

 

And here's a classic example - a BR MK1 3-set in crimson and cream strengthened for the summer months with two Bulleid seconds in green...

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SR-4-4-0s/i-vx7whLs/A