Retooled class 47 in 7mm scale

[MGR Hooper!]

On 28/12/2019 at 16:22, Rugd1022 said:

Comparison with 47 105 on the Glos & Warks…. would like to see a painted bodyshell which may or may not help....

 

 

 

 

Definitely shows that Heljan have gotten the shape wrong.

Edited January 1, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[MGR Hooper!]

Seems like the painted sample from Heljan has carried over the same errors from the first EP. Hopefully Heljan have been making changes to their CAD based on feedback from people. And I really hope that the painted sample is nothing but the first EP painted up.

 

 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

That does show there is some cab taper at least!

 

There is a photo on Facebook showing the front but not head on enough to really show the proportions.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Hal Nail

[MGR Hooper!]

Another picture of the Class 47 from Heljan

[Ray M]

Whats with the straight front cab hand rail ?

[MGR Hooper!]

Painted sample from Brian Daniels...

 

 

[Gary H]

To my eye, it looks to be an improvement!

[MGR Hooper!]

There is certainly improvements made to the model, but the model is far from perfect. And it is such a pity that we seem to have an issue with Heljan not liking any feedback.

 

In an odd twist...Heljan now seems to be restricting access to anyone who hasn't posted a positive comment on their facebook post regarding the Class 47. I saw three comments, none of which were rude in any way whatsoever, just expressing genuine concern over the various issues. Those comments have been removed from the post and upon contacting those people, it seems like they cannot access the Heljan facebook page any more or if so, cannot do anything else apart from see what is posted.

 

I recall seeing 86 comments initially. Now there seems to be only 36 comments on said post.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[Hal Nail]

We need a head on to learn anything conclusive for me. The much discussed shelf was fixable anyway but the proportions across the width need to be right otherwise I might as well go back to slicing up my old one!

[MGR Hooper!]

Can confirm that Heljan are now restricting access to anyone who isn't posting a positive comment on the O gauge Class 47 post. I posted the following:-
"Is this EP #1? I was under the impression that EP #1 was painted in BR LL Blue by Brian Daniels. If this is EP #2 it seems to have carried over a lot of errors from EP #1"

My second comment was quite a long one in response to a gentleman who had asked why someone had rated the post funny or sad. I posted a rather long comment (not at all rude, but straightforward) explaining Heljan's history of not taking onboard feedback. We cannot ignore the fact that many members from rmweb have spent a lot of time trying to give Heljan feedback. Heljan have a track record of just not liking feedback. Every time people have contacted Heljan with feedback, you'll get a typical PR style response basically saying that they know what they are doing. I've also had issues with Heljan reps in the past who have let their anger get the better of them. Over the years I have gone from loving Heljan's products to disliking them. Heljan's Danish products are far superior to their British products. In today's day and age where laser scanning has been around for quite a few years, such rookie mistakes just aren't acceptable.

My comments have been removed and access to their page restricted to just viewing and sharing.

 

All in all Heljan is becoming a very unpleasant brand to deal with. From grumpy reps to bad QC and models that are just incorrect. You'll get an odd good model from Heljan like their 0-6-0 shunters, but then almost everything else either has incorrect details, incorrect dimensions or just terrible QC.

Edited May 31, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[blueeighties]

13 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 Lack of interest in an RTR Class 47 in one of the emerging scales in the UK is troubling.

I'm presuming that assumption and statement is based purely on this thread, with nothing else other than fresh air to substantiate it. 

My order book and many others within trade circles would indicate there is certainly a very large interest in the 2nd generation version of the class 47. Perhaps the lack of commenting on this thread is down to folk becoming bored with hearing the same voices banging the same drum every single time a new model is going through the development process. 

These are 2nd generation models. So the manufacturer has listened and has improved things. At the end of the day these are models....no model has, or will ever be 100% accurate to the prototype. Even if that ever happened, I'm sure the experts would still find fault on areas that 'they just can't quite put their finger on'.

[MGR Hooper!]

If order books a full then that's a good sign. Hope it pays off for Heljan. It's sad that others have to live with very obvious errors and have been doing so for all these years and just have to continue doing so.

[46444]

11 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

 

To be honest with that ongoing attitude I'm not surprised you've got restricted access to the Heljan website. 

 

Pots and kettles spring to mind once more. 

 

Mark 

[atom3624]

For reference:

 

 

[Hal Nail]

13 hours ago, blueeighties said:

I'm sure the experts would still find fault on areas that 'they just can't quite put their finger on'.

 

I think there is some middle ground albeit i totally appreciate the overall point you were making! 

 

Perhaps for those that have the old one to justify spending c£600 requires a higher level of accuracy than those buying for the first time but as you say, it is very clearly a more refined model than the first incarnation, evidenced by the bogies and fuel tanks. 

 

You do see some pompously worded statements along the lines of this handrail is in the wrong place and therefore I have been forced to cancel my order but the vast majority who raise detail differences do so with the sole intention of having their model as correct as possible - ideally by the manufacturer engaging but if not then by correcting themselves. Personally I find this useful.

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Hal Nail

[JBM37404]

Looks decent enough to me to keep my order for one in place. 

[delticfan]

On 30/05/2020 at 10:24, JBM37404 said:

Looks decent enough to me to keep my order for one in place. 

Yeah, I’ll be up for one maybe two, it looks like a duff to me no doubt with a few Heljan howlers thrown in. Can’t be any worse than the Deltics they did. 

[47606odin]

Comparison between the ledge on 105 up the top of the page and 635 just above, there does indeed seem a big difference between the 2. I know the liveries are different, but 635 definitely seems to have a flatter top to the nose than 105. 
 

do any of those with more comprehensive knowledge know if one is a Crewe loco and the other is a Loughborough built machine or has 635 had a replacement fitted at a later time with a flatter nose than the norm?

[Hal Nail]

105 Brush, 636 Crewe.

 

But its either a trick of the light or that one is unusually flat as plenty of other Crewe built locos are more rounded.

 

They do look very different tho - prototype for everything!

Edited June 3, 2020 by Hal Nail

[47606odin]

5 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

105 Brush, 636 Crewe.

 

But its either a trick of the light or that one is unusually flat as plenty of other Crewe built locos are more rounded.

 

They do look very different tho - prototype for everything!

wondering if 635 has a replacement crash repair cab

Edited June 3, 2020 by 47606odin

[John Tomlinson]

As someone who has one of the otriginal batch, it seemed to me that a lot of the credibility loss on that was the shape of the horizontal front handrail. Correct that to being the gentle convex curve and it looked a lot better. There certainly isn't enough glaringly wrong with it otherwise for me to go for a new one, although I hope Heljan do well with this from those who missed out first time.

 

Perhaps there'll be some pre-owned bargains on ebay for peasants like me to fiddle with, from those who've made the switch!

 

John.

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

As someone who has one of the otriginal batch, it seemed to me that a lot of the credibility loss on that was the shape of the horizontal front handrail. Correct that to being the gentle convex curve and it looked a lot better. There certainly isn't enough glaringly wrong with it otherwise for me to go for a new one.

It measures quite significantly narrow across the nose and too high so is rather pinched from head on but people see things differently and what is enough to bother each person is rather subjective!

 

I managed to get access to a real one and measured it all up but then rather skillfully lost the envelope I had carefully recorded it all on, which is a bit galling.

[BigAndy]

I've sort of sat here looking at all the comments and taking it in......then thought should I comment or shouldn't I?

 

Sometimes it seems like a waste of 5 minutes modelling time, as everyone has differing opinions and there never seems to be any resolution to an argument.

If you think this 47 from Heljan is really nice, looks like a 47 to you and you're happy - great, knock yerselves out, that's great.

 

However, there are a significant amount of Modellers who, lets face it for an outlay of £600.00, want their models to be correct in virtually every aspect. I don't think it's unreasonable to be honest.

If I went to say.......a dog breeder who supplies German Shepherd pups, kennel club registered etc etc - the pups come from two champion parents, and I pay something like £2,000 for it - I want to be sure that pup is healthy and there's nowt wrong with it.

So imagine on getting said pup home and you're admiring this super wonderful specimen..........but then it Miaows like a cat......

 

What do you do? How do you feel? Apart from being embarrassed, you would probably feel pretty cheated...........

 

To most dog owners, the DNA of their pet is unimportant.......it's the dog itself that matters, doesn't matter if it's a mongrel, a Heinz 57 or a crossbreed.........its a dog and a member of the family.

 

See the analogy?

 

To the organisers of Crufts and the entrants thereof, the supreme champion has to have certain attributes.......it has to be right........it can't have knock knees, a bent tail, have crossed eyes or Miaows......it's got to be perfect for it to be considered a contender for overall Champion......

 

And that's where a lot of 7mm Modellers are. Vast majority are experts. They've come through years of ground training, building kits or scratchbuilding - they're USED to getting things right.

So along come a major manufacturer and start producing RTR locos and stock. Great. But there's a downside to all this isn't there? 7mm is, or was, considered the 'Senior Scale'.....because it was mainly patronised by the elder and more mature modeller - as I said, someone who had spent their formative years learning their trade to the point that they could quite rightly class themselves as experts.

 

Then Heljan start knocking out models that aren't right.......in fact some glaring errors. Are these time served modellers not allowed to feel slightly aggrieved?

There are Kit manufacturers out there, seriously struggling now in the 7mm market, because Heljan are tapping into an hitherto untapped market - Diesel and electric Modellers, who are say 45 years old and upwards, who have a few quid to spend - they're at the time of life where they're still earning but kids have grown up........they have money to spend.

 

Problem is, all these RTR models are pushing the modelling skills out of the way ( but that's another argument }, however that doesn't bother Heljan, who are a business and therefore out to make as much profit as possible.

 

Where does this all leave the enthusiast and modeller then?  The modeller who is happy to have a 7mm 47 that somewhat looks like a 47, fall out of a box and run round, then happy days............as I said, knock yerselves out.

 

For everyone else, it would seem that we have a 47 that Miaows...............

 

cheers

 

Andy

[MGR Hooper!]

5 hours ago, BigAndy said:

I've sort of sat here looking at all the comments and taking it in......then thought should I comment or shouldn't I?

 

Sometimes it seems like a waste of 5 minutes modelling time, as everyone has differing opinions and there never seems to be any resolution to an argument.

If you think this 47 from Heljan is really nice, looks like a 47 to you and you're happy - great, knock yerselves out, that's great.

 

However, there are a significant amount of Modellers who, lets face it for an outlay of £600.00, want their models to be correct in virtually every aspect. I don't think it's unreasonable to be honest.

If I went to say.......a dog breeder who supplies German Shepherd pups, kennel club registered etc etc - the pups come from two champion parents, and I pay something like £2,000 for it - I want to be sure that pup is healthy and there's nowt wrong with it.

So imagine on getting said pup home and you're admiring this super wonderful specimen..........but then it Miaows like a cat......

 

What do you do? How do you feel? Apart from being embarrassed, you would probably feel pretty cheated...........

 

To most dog owners, the DNA of their pet is unimportant.......it's the dog itself that matters, doesn't matter if it's a mongrel, a Heinz 57 or a crossbreed.........its a dog and a member of the family.

 

See the analogy?

 

To the organisers of Crufts and the entrants thereof, the supreme champion has to have certain attributes.......it has to be right........it can't have knock knees, a bent tail, have crossed eyes or Miaows......it's got to be perfect for it to be considered a contender for overall Champion......

 

And that's where a lot of 7mm Modellers are. Vast majority are experts. They've come through years of ground training, building kits or scratchbuilding - they're USED to getting things right.

So along come a major manufacturer and start producing RTR locos and stock. Great. But there's a downside to all this isn't there? 7mm is, or was, considered the 'Senior Scale'.....because it was mainly patronised by the elder and more mature modeller - as I said, someone who had spent their formative years learning their trade to the point that they could quite rightly class themselves as experts.

 

Then Heljan start knocking out models that aren't right.......in fact some glaring errors. Are these time served modellers not allowed to feel slightly aggrieved?

There are Kit manufacturers out there, seriously struggling now in the 7mm market, because Heljan are tapping into an hitherto untapped market - Diesel and electric Modellers, who are say 45 years old and upwards, who have a few quid to spend - they're at the time of life where they're still earning but kids have grown up........they have money to spend.

 

Problem is, all these RTR models are pushing the modelling skills out of the way ( but that's another argument }, however that doesn't bother Heljan, who are a business and therefore out to make as much profit as possible.

 

Where does this all leave the enthusiast and modeller then?  The modeller who is happy to have a 7mm 47 that somewhat looks like a 47, fall out of a box and run round, then happy days............as I said, knock yerselves out.

 

For everyone else, it would seem that we have a 47 that Miaows...............

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

Very well said Andy

 

And just to add, It's not just the idea of shelling out £600 for a model, there's a lot of people on this forum and other social media platforms who genuinely want to help brands like Heljan and so on. We don't get any benefit from it apart from an accurate model, Heljan are the ones who actually benefit from it.

[Hal Nail]

I think that's a fair summary but I suppose the one slight doubt I have is that if there was a market for accurate kits before hand, the presence of inaccurate r-t-r offerings shouldn't really affect that.

 

I rather suspect the dynamic is changing in those modelling, allowing r-t-r to thrive, rather than the other way round.

 

Anyway I remain hopeful of the new one in the absence of much else to work with.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Hal Nail