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Hornby Announce SR 4-6-0 Lord Nelson


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My order was with world of books which is an Amazon associate. The second hand book was £3.32 with £2.80 postage. (There was another seller offering the same overall price with "free postage" )   I'd bought from world of books before and book turned up ok so went with them.

If the book's in the condition they say it is, has some clear pics of the different locos in the class and an accurate history then will have been worth getting.

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"Locomotives in Detail 8 Maunsell 4.6.0. Lord Nelson Class" arrived yesterday. As it's written to cover detail differences and livery changes of the class, it's just the job to find the right model to renumber to the one I want (that's if Hornby don't announce 30856 or 30857, the 2 in my Ian Allen spotters book).

Lots of  photos, with early colour ones as well. While this tells you what a particular loco looked like at a particular time, there is an interesting history of the design, development and modification of the class.

 

Couple of things, 862 had an experimental double chimney fitted in 1934. Several were painted apple green for a while after nationalisation.  2 more for Hornby in the future!

 

 

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So, do you think 862 with that double chimney looks a wee bit like a long version of a rebuilt Royal Scot or, through half closed eyes, a King with a double chimney?

Have you noticed the rather 'confused' arrangement of the information (e.g. early/late emblem applied or Bulleid Cylinders fitted) on that list of the Locomotive histories at the back of the book? The first column for each loco seems inconsistent on each page and I can't work out why.

I think there are other books available; Irwell Press maybe?

Phil

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On ‎05‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 00:48, bagnall said:

As some one else pointed out 30853 Sir Richard Grenville lasted until December 1957 in original condition before having new cylinders and smoke box fitted,  30851 Sir Francis Drake lasted until withdrawal in December 1961 with  the piano front and short smoke box although it had the later smoke deflectors with out the steam pipe bulge over the cylinders, this was due to a mix up when it had new cylinders fitted in 1949 with 8” piston valves instead of 10” so depending your modelling time scale two more locos in BR livery from renumbering 30863.  One thing that Hornby have got wrong on 30863 is the yellow triangle under the number, this should be a letter A the same colour as the numbers, it looks like they have used a photo of the loco in the Irwell book taken ex works at   Eastleigh in 1949. The letters on LSWR and Southern Railway locos built and overhauled at Eastleigh referred to the locos power classification, Ryde works on the IOW also used it and it was usually displayed on the running plate behind the front buffer, in BR days it was applied under the number and lasted into the early 50’s when it was superseded by the BR standard code above the number, Ashford and Brighton didn’t seem to use this system. The yellow triangle under the number denoted that the loco had water treatment fitted, this was used in the early sixty’s when it replaced a yellow dot under the number that had been introduced in the mid 50’s, it changed to the triangle so the yellow dot would not get confused with the Western Regions coulerd dots that where displayed on there loco cabs for route and power classification.

Have copied this for someone else's info on another thread. Hope you don't mind?

Phil

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On 05/04/2019 at 00:48, bagnall said:

One thing that Hornby have got wrong on 30863 is the yellow triangle under the number, this should be a letter A the same colour as the numbers, it looks like they have used a photo of the loco in the Irwell book taken ex works at   Eastleigh in 1949. The letters on LSWR and Southern Railway locos built and overhauled at Eastleigh referred to the locos power classification, Ryde works on the IOW also used it and it was usually displayed on the running plate behind the front buffer, in BR days it was applied under the number and lasted into the early 50’s when it was superseded by the BR standard code above the number, Ashford and Brighton didn’t seem to use this system. The yellow triangle under the number denoted that the loco had water treatment fitted, this was used in the early sixty’s when it replaced a yellow dot under the number that had been introduced in the mid 50’s, it changed to the triangle so the yellow dot would not get confused with the Western Regions coulerd dots that where displayed on there loco cabs for route and power classification.

Reference to a photograph (attached) in the 1959 ABC Combined Volume shows "Rodney" at what is most certainly Oxford with the early crest, water treatment triangle and no power classification on the cabside.

(Note the term "shortened smokebox" might be better stating "orginal" as it was never shortened as such, but never lengthened as the loco retained its original Maunsell cylinders with 8" valves.)

It would appear Hornby have generally got it "spot on" with their rendition of the livery.

Not certain of any addition made to the tender tops of Nelsons fitted with the water treatment but the model has such an impressive presence, I can happily live without any.

image1_1557916157274.jpeg.1195db52a51edf2f28795489bf74b5bc.jpeg

Edited by Right Away
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Although this photo appears in the 1959 ABC l think you will find that it is pre March 1956 as there are various photos of 30863 Lord Rodney in the Irwell book, the one dated March 1956 shows it with the original tender emblem, smaller cab side numbers, 7P power classification above the number and nothing below, if it had a water treatment symbol at that time it would have been a yellow spot. It seems that it never carried a water treatment symbols as there is a photo of it on its last working to Tonbridge on an engineers train that it worked from Hither Green to get it to Ashford for scrapping in February 1962. It was in the same condition as in March 1956 except it had the later emblem on the tender. The water treatment symbols weather  the spot or triangle were lower down the cab side than the photo from the ABC, so l think it is the A power classification.

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Very intriguing--Hornby advertise it as being in stock at £169,99--I thought I had a bargain when I received my early placed order at Rails for £129.99--now there for £109 !!

It seems very strange that a newly designed model has been so heavily discounted so soon after release.

Certainly somebody is not realising the return on their investment--It does not look like good business however attractive the model is for me.

regards,

Ed

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On 15/05/2019 at 23:00, bagnall said:

Although this photo appears in the 1959 ABC l think you will find that it is pre March 1956 as there are various photos of 30863 Lord Rodney in the Irwell book, the one dated March 1956 shows it with the original tender emblem, smaller cab side numbers, 7P power classification above the number and nothing below, if it had a water treatment symbol at that time it would have been a yellow spot. It seems that it never carried a water treatment symbols as there is a photo of it on its last working to Tonbridge on an engineers train that it worked from Hither Green to get it to Ashford for scrapping in February 1962. It was in the same condition as in March 1956 except it had the later emblem on the tender. The water treatment symbols weather  the spot or triangle were lower down the cab side than the photo from the ABC, so l think it is the A power classification.

 

Here's a picture of it in 1961 where it appears to have a 7P power classification above the number and nothing below.

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p1018623573/e9d02102a

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2 hours ago, ed 66 plant said:

Very intriguing--Hornby advertise it as being in stock at £169,99--I thought I had a bargain when I received my early placed order at Rails for £129.99--now there for £109 !!

It seems very strange that a newly designed model has been so heavily discounted so soon after release.

Certainly somebody is not realising the return on their investment--It does not look like good business however attractive the model is for me.

regards,

Ed

 

 

It's a shame that they don't seem to be selling as well as expected. They are beautiful models, but I have to say I am guilty of ignoring them: I simply do not need any more LNs than I already have. My two Bachmann models both still run very well (well enough that I converted them to DCC), and, while they aren't up to the super-detailed status of the Hornby models, they still look like Lord Nelsons at any sort of normal viewing distance.

I'll probably regret not snapping up the Rails bargains at some time in the future, but right now, I can use the money elsewhere.

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I wonder how much of it is the livery variations?

 

The olive one with the smaller tender and no smoke deflectors is fairly early and then the next jump is the BR one, this leaves a big gap in the middle. Personally i'm holding out for if/when there is a Malachite release, and I'd probably have bought two with the current discounts. 

 

I did also observe that Hattons has the BR H2 on special at the moment too.

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4 hours ago, Jack P said:

I wonder how much of it is the livery variations?

 

The olive one with the smaller tender and no smoke deflectors is fairly early and then the next jump is the BR one, this leaves a big gap in the middle. Personally i'm holding out for if/when there is a Malachite release, and I'd probably have bought two with the current discounts. 

 

I did also observe that Hattons has the BR H2 on special at the moment too.

 

It's also that the late logo release has the TTS decoder in it that, as has already been mentioned and I for one feel, is not good enough for a higher fidelity model. Therefore I've held off making a purchase while waiting for a non-sound late logo version of any LN to be released.

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33 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

 

It's also that the late logo release has the TTS decoder in it that, as has already been mentioned and I for one feel, is not good enough for a higher fidelity model. Therefore I've held off making a purchase while waiting for a non-sound late logo version of any LN to be released.

 

And indeed this point has already been made here.I feel however that this only partially explains what at least on the Rails stock of the LN appears to be a price crash as a result of over estimated sales on initial order.

 

   In more general terms with retail prices heading towards.....and soon to supersede......the £200 mark ,the question is just how well are sales holding across the board ? Or did Hornby land too many of these on the market at the same time ? Odd when you consider the initial release of Duchess 46256 in late 2017 sold out quickly.Yet 6231 didn’t do as well .The latter is of course a direct comparison with the olive green LN.

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1 hour ago, Ian J. said:

 

It's also that the late logo release has the TTS decoder in it that, as has already been mentioned and I for one feel, is not good enough for a higher fidelity model. Therefore I've held off making a purchase while waiting for a non-sound late logo version of any LN to be released.

 

Yet the TTS l/c version is not reduced in the Rails sale.Anyway never one to pass an unmissable batgain ,I have succumbed to  e/c Rodney from the “retailer of taste” on Chesterfield Road.At that price....etc. etc...why not ?

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10 hours ago, Jack P said:

I wonder how much of it is the livery variations?

 

The olive one with the smaller tender and no smoke deflectors is fairly early and then the next jump is the BR one, this leaves a big gap in the middle. Personally i'm holding out for if/when there is a Malachite release, ....

If they can do coaches in malachite why hold back on the locos ?

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5 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

And indeed this point has already been made here.I feel however that this only partially explains what at least on the Rails stock of the LN appears to be a price crash as a result of over estimated sales on initial order.

 

   In more general terms with retail prices heading towards.....and soon to supersede......the £200 mark ,the question is just how well are sales holding across the board ? Or did Hornby land too many of these on the market at the same time ? Odd when you consider the initial release of Duchess 46256 in late 2017 sold out quickly.Yet 6231 didn’t do as well .The latter is of course a direct comparison with the olive green LN.

The second run of 46256 seems to be sticking to shelves and is modestly discounted, and streamlined Coronations are being reduced. BR Green Castles and WCs/BoB's seem to to be holding their price and selling.

 

As for the LN  I think the curious choices of the first issue (often a Hornby trait)_along with the particularly flat rendition of BR Green and gloss lining are putting buyers off. 

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In my mind this was predictable, I dont think its any fault of the model, its the new sales methodology. I believe there is way to predict which models may fall like this.

 

This model could be the first test of buyers holding back on purchasing due to the 10% discount restriction and waiting for the discount, the exact inverse of before when everyone piled in on day one to capture the biggest bargain.

 

The risk for buyers now is “new car sales”, where when you buy a model upon release your going to see massive drops in value as the model ages and retailer discounts kick in over time, where as before buyers were relatively certain that buying at a max discount will minimise loss as the cheaper ones sold out first, leading to higher prices (unless it was over produced).

 

1st run new types should be protected from this, but duplicated models from older toolings I would suggest are at most risk.. after all my old Bachmann LN is 30 years old.. it can go another 2 months until the prices drop... my older Terriers and 61xx’s can too, if I miss, I havent lost as I still have what I have.

 

I actually admit to cashing in on this, and taking a gamble it would happen, I secured my two at 2018 prices, and upon seeing the dealers being price restricted, I decided to “short sell” my two LNs, on an ebay “£1 to sell deal”, at just over the 10% rrp cap making a £20 profit on each... Last night I bought then back from Rails at £20 less than I originally paid, giving me a £40 spread on each.  

I did say this last year, but I was slapped down by my suggestion this could happen. The bigger risk is “must have loss”.. a model that ages loses its attraction, theres a risk that now the big discount is here, its no longer a “must have” model and buyers may be looking at other new toolings coming over the horizon... I for one wont be missing the new Pecketts in this way, so if I were cash restrained, the LN would be pushed further down the stack, joining my 2nd B4 on the “D list” of must haves.

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I pre-ordered 30850 from Rails when announced, asking them to remove the TTS decoder as they had done with 46235 the previous year. this they did, sending the decoder to me which I then sold back to the UK via Ebay, saving even more from their initial price.

 I purchased 30863 when released, as I realised that by tender swapping, I could have two different locos. from the same era, 30853 and 30863. This suits me and I am unlikely to buy any more LNs. However, I have a 'different ' model in 30863 to others in the class.

 The TTS sound added to the cost of what was likely to be the most popular release, BR green, late crest, 'Rodney' has a very limited number of possible renumbering/namings, and the very early Southern example encompasses a very narrow timeframe and possible purchase market... hence the discount. If you don't want a 'Rodney', there isn't much you can do with it, the SR example even less!!!

Just my thoughts,

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

PS The Bachmann LN is very very crude compared to the latest Hornby model, which is very smooth and silent in operation. Now is the time to trade up!!

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1 hour ago, 45568 said:

I pre-ordered 30850 from Rails when announced, asking them to remove the TTS decoder as they had done with 46235 the previous year. this they did, sending the decoder to me which I then sold back to the UK via Ebay, saving even more from their initial price.

 I purchased 30863 when released, as I realised that by tender swapping, I could have two different locos. from the same era, 30853 and 30863. This suits me and I am unlikely to buy any more LNs. However, I have a 'different ' model in 30863 to others in the class.

 The TTS sound added to the cost of what was likely to be the most popular release, BR green, late crest, 'Rodney' has a very limited number of possible renumbering/namings, and the very early Southern example encompasses a very narrow timeframe and possible purchase market... hence the discount. If you don't want a 'Rodney', there isn't much you can do with it, the SR example even less!!!

Just my thoughts,

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

PS The Bachmann LN is very very crude compared to the latest Hornby model, which is very smooth and silent in operation. Now is the time to trade up!!

Precisely - if I was going to impulse purchase any LN (and my layout is 'northern England' based!) it would have been late crest 30850 for use on the pretext of a 'Special' as 30925 and various Bulleid Pacifics did. But I'm not paying top dollar for that and definitely not with the (to me) useless TTS steam sound.

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On ‎24‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 02:52, Jack P said:

The olive one with the smaller tender and no smoke deflectors is fairly early and then the next jump is the BR one, this leaves a big gap in the middle. Personally i'm holding out for if/when there is a Malachite release, and I'd probably have bought two with the current discounts. 

 

Ideally, I would prefer the olive version with smoke deflectors, but live with the purchase of Sir Frankie and perhaps fitting my own. If I can get hold of a set of plans or measurements, it shouldn't be beyond even my mediocre abilities to knock something up out of plasticard or brass sheet.

 

But Rails' price drop makes another purchase and renumbering to LN itself a tantalizing idea.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just checking here first, Rodney would not be correct for a renumber to 862 'Lord Collingwood' would it? Outside steam pipes coming through the deflectors is a issue on the model, but probably wouldn't be too hard to fix, just checking there's nothing else I should be aware of? (smokebox etc)

 

On an unrelated note, Were any of the LN's still in wartime black except for Rodney towards the end of 1947?

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7 hours ago, Jack P said:

Just checking here first, Rodney would not be correct for a renumber to 862 'Lord Collingwood' would it? Outside steam pipes coming through the deflectors is a issue on the model, but probably wouldn't be too hard to fix, just checking there's nothing else I should be aware of? (smokebox etc)

 

On an unrelated note, Were any of the LN's still in wartime black except for Rodney towards the end of 1947?

 Lord Rodney retained its "piano front" as its smokebox was never extended. Lord Collingwood received an extended smokebox when fitted with new cylinders and 10" piston valves as modified by Bulleid.

 

 

 

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