Hornby Announce SR 4-6-0 Lord Nelson

[Jack P]

3 hours ago, robmcg said:

Hi All,

 

This has no doubt been covered elsewhere in this thread but my 3306TTS Lord Nelson doesn't run on DC at all, as supplied. I've read a dozen or mare pages of posts but no answer to my question:

 

How can the model be altered to run on DC ?

 

Can this be changed by altering CVs or would I need to remove the chip and insert a blanking plug?

 

Can it be set to run on both DC and DCC ?

 

I just want smooth DC analogue running, don't care for sound, and have limited skill in body removal etc.

 

Lovely model though.

 

 

Sorry to be so pig ignorant.

 

 

Hey Rob, 

 

I'm pretty local to you, if you wanted hand, I could always pop in and give you a hand to take the chip out. Luckily it's in the tender, so not as difficult as some other locations. 

 

Feel free to PM me!

[Jack P]

On 04/08/2020 at 21:16, MikeParkin65 said:

Can’t answer directly  as I havent got one but have you checked that the bogie isnt lifting the drivers? Had that with the new Duchess. Also I’m interested that you have fitted the steps and draincocks - whats your minimum radius curve (and will it go around it?!) 

 

I did check, and it's just as bad with the bogie removed entirely. 

 

I don't have a layout yet, but i've already decided that when it happens the curves will be as generous as possible. Full front end detail is a requirement! (I may yet regret this decision)

[Chrisr40]

3 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

If I’m remembering correctly, the TTS decoders don’t allow DC running. Only way they could is to remove the decoder. I could be wrong but I believe that’s one of the drawbacks of the cheaper sound. 

 Hi, they do allow running on dc you just have to set the correct cv to enable it and you dont have the sound, so effectively you have a standard dcc decoder.

[paftrain]

8 hours ago, robmcg said:

Hi All,

 

This has no doubt been covered elsewhere in this thread but my 3306TTS Lord Nelson doesn't run on DC at all, as supplied. I've read a dozen or mare pages of posts but no answer to my question:

 

How can the model be altered to run on DC ?

 

Can this be changed by altering CVs or would I need to remove the chip and insert a blanking plug?

 

Can it be set to run on both DC and DCC ?

 

I just want smooth DC analogue running, don't care for sound, and have limited skill in body removal etc.

 

Lovely model though.

 

 

Sorry to be so pig ignorant.

 

 

 

 

Hi Rob,

All you have to do is set CV 29 to a value of 38 and you will have DC running and also be able to program in a 4 digit number (i.e 0850).

Cheers,

Paul.

[Steamport Southport]

For that you need a DCC controller. No use if you don't use DCC which is the problem for most of us luddites.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Chrisr40]

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

For that you need a DCC controller. No use if you don't use DCC which is the problem for most of us luddites.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Pop out the chip and put in the blanking plug then. Sell the chip and recoup some of your outlay. Or you could always (covid allowing) ask a friend or local model shop who does have a dcc controller to do it for you. 

[MikeParkin65]

38 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Pop out the chip and put in the blanking plug then. Sell the chip and recoup some of your outlay. Or you could always (covid allowing) ask a friend or local model shop who does have a dcc controller to do it for you. 

Not sure Hornby provide a blanking plug for their DCC fitted locos - certainly wasn’t one with my recent Princess

[Chrisr40]

7 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Not sure Hornby provide a blanking plug for their DCC fitted locos - certainly wasn’t one with my recent Princess

Hi  Hornby probably dont expect you to remove something you paid more for, no matter though I think the blanking plugs are inexpensive on Ebay etc. Good luck.

[Legend]

23 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Hi  Hornby probably dont expect you to remove something you paid more for, no matter though I think the blanking plugs are inexpensive on Ebay etc. Good luck.

 

Hornby sent me one when I enquired about dechipping J36 Maude . Might be worthwhile giving service dept a call. Just remembered it was Mr Islesy himself

Edited August 27, 2020 by Legend

[3rd Rail Exile]

13 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Hi  Hornby probably dont expect you to remove something you paid more for, no matter though I think the blanking plugs are inexpensive on Ebay etc. Good luck.

 

But plenty of people do - especially if the exact same model isn't available "unfitted".  The least Hornby could do is supply the chip with the default CV setting to allow running on DC... 

 

I've had a couple of new models appear to be stone dead until I replaced the TTS chip with a blanking plug (cheap on eBay as you say...)

[Chrisr40]

1 hour ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

But plenty of people do - especially if the exact same model isn't available "unfitted".  The least Hornby could do is supply the chip with the default CV setting to allow running on DC... 

 

I've had a couple of new models appear to be stone dead until I replaced the TTS chip with a blanking plug (cheap on eBay as you say...)

Hi,

I would argue the majority of people who buy a sound fitted model are largely doing it for that reason. If you buy a sound fitted model but you dont want the sound you are the exception to that rule and whilst it's an inconvenience I'm not sure its Hornbys fault or can to carry. The chips come set to dcc running only because with a decoder on board that is the optimised setting. Why fit a decoder at the factory and then set it to run without it ?

[3rd Rail Exile]

32 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Hi,

I would argue the majority of people who buy a sound fitted model are largely doing it for that reason. If you buy a sound fitted model but you dont want the sound you are the exception to that rule and whilst it's an inconvenience I'm not sure its Hornbys fault or can to carry. The chips come set to dcc running only because with a decoder on board that is the optimised setting. Why fit a decoder at the factory and then set it to run without it ?

 

Hi,

 

I didn't intend to suggest there was "fault or can to carry" - sorry if it came over like that...  And yes, I do accept that the majority will be buying it for the sound - but not all!  Sometimes the running number /livery I'm particularly looking for just happens to be the TTS fitted version...  

 

I don't do DCC (due to the potential cost of chipping nearly 400 locos and units acquired over many years, since well before DCC came about), so don't fully understand it, but does setting the appropriate CV to allow DC running (someone said earlier it was CV 29 to a value of 38) affect DCC performance?  I thought it was simply a case of allow/don't allow, but if it's doing something that somehow impairs the DCC performance then I can understand why it's not a default setting.  

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

Hi,

 

I didn't intend to suggest there was "fault or can to carry" - sorry if it came over like that...  And yes, I do accept that the majority will be buying it for the sound - but not all!  Sometimes the running number /livery I'm particularly looking for just happens to be the TTS fitted version...  

 

I don't do DCC (due to the potential cost of chipping nearly 400 locos and units acquired over many years, since well before DCC came about), so don't fully understand it, but does setting the appropriate CV to allow DC running (someone said earlier it was CV 29 to a value of 38) affect DCC performance?  I thought it was simply a case of allow/don't allow, but if it's doing something that somehow impairs the DCC performance then I can understand why it's not a default setting.  

Conventional wisdom is that facilitating DC operation on a DCC loco can cause unexpected issues when used on a DCC layout. 

[paftrain]

3 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Conventional wisdom is that facilitating DC operation on a DCC loco can cause unexpected issues when used on a DCC layout. 

I have over 40 DCC locos with sound, and yet more with just DCC, all of which also run on DC with no problems at all.

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

Hi,

 

I didn't intend to suggest there was "fault or can to carry" - sorry if it came over like that...  And yes, I do accept that the majority will be buying it for the sound - but not all!  Sometimes the running number /livery I'm particularly looking for just happens to be the TTS fitted version...  

 

I don't do DCC (due to the potential cost of chipping nearly 400 locos and units acquired over many years, since well before DCC came about), so don't fully understand it, but does setting the appropriate CV to allow DC running (someone said earlier it was CV 29 to a value of 38) affect DCC performance?  I thought it was simply a case of allow/don't allow, but if it's doing something that somehow impairs the DCC performance then I can understand why it's not a default setting.  

 

The first TTS locos could run on either DC or DCC. Albeit they are silent on DC. Later they changed the rules to DCC only. I guess it should not affect DCC running or at worst, someone will need to go in and change the setting back. To be perfectly honest though, the tender top is easy to remove (same as S15 as far as removal goes as I fitted TTS inside one unlike some Hornby locos). If I wanted it for DC only, I'd remove the chip (it simply unplugs) and fit an 8 pin plug. The speaker can either be removed (several screws more) or wires cut (easy to resolder on IF cut speaker end, not chip).

Hornby don't do the Nelson chip apart yet so the TTS chip could be easily sold on. 

 

I originally brought Lord Rodney with the intention of fitting TTS later. I already had Lord Nelson in its Bachmann guise (yeah the new is better but the old one does not look out of place  on a layout). But when they appear at Bargin prices, I brought Lord Nelson as well. So for DC mode, old Lord Nelson, DCC mode new Lord Nelson....

 

 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, paftrain said:

I have over 40 DCC locos with sound, and yet more with just DCC, all of which also run on DC with no problems at all.

However some decoders can go bananas when on DCC with DC enabled with certain dcc systems....

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The problem seems to be mainly “DC Runaway”.

 

The decoder senses a DCC track signal, and works on DCC.

 

If the decoder senses a DC track current, it works on DC.

 

If the DCC signal is lost or corrupted, by dirty track or wheels, or a stray capacitor fitted suppression circuit, then the decoder can think it is on a DC track, and the continuous high voltage of the DCC system causes the loco to run off at high speed...

 

It has been suggested that Hornby TTS decoders are particularly sensitive to DC runaway, and that seems to be the reason for the change to the CV settings.
 

I think that the first TTS locos to have this done were the Maude models...

 

I don’t know if the TTS decoders supplied separately have DC running disabled, or what the status is with other non sound a Hornby decoders, fitted to locos or separate.
 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by Sarahagain
Typo

[Chrisr40]

41 minutes ago, Sarahagain said:

The problem seems to be mainly “DC Runaway”.

 

The decoder senses a DCC track signal, and works on DCC.

 

If the decoder senses a DC track current, it works on DC.

 

If the DCC signal is lost or corrupted, by dirty track or wheels, or a stray capacitor fitted suppression circuit, then the decoder can think it is on a DC track, and the continuous high voltage of the DCC system causes the loco to run off at high speed...

 

It has been suggested that Hornby TTS decoders are particularly sensitive to DC runaway, and that seems to be the reason for the change to the CV settings.
 

I think that the first TTS locos to have this done were the Maude models...

 

I don’t know if the TTS decoders supplied separately have DC running disabled, or what the status is with other non sound a Hornby decoders, fitted to locos or separate.
 

 

 

I picked up Ketley hall from a split train set and that was set for dcc only on its tts chip so it's been done for a while before the j36 I think.

[robmcg]

11 hours ago, paftrain said:

Hi Rob,

All you have to do is set CV 29 to a value of 38 and you will have DC running and also be able to program in a 4 digit number (i.e 0850).

Cheers,

Paul.

 

Thanks I do have an Elite controller having dabbled in DCC and DCC sound at times, my preference however is for DC analogue.  I could change the CV 29 value and get DC running perhap (that's a complicated CV I think). I buy engines mostly to photograph and enjoy on a very simple diorama, DC is fine and simple for that. All my other DCC engines run ok on it with DC.

 

If I change the CV 29 setting I suspect I would be wise to change it back if I was to re-sell the loco. It would take a bit of effort for me to dig out my DCC controller and transformer and connect them up, so simply removing the coal load, if that gives access to the chip, and then fitting an 8-pin plug appeals.

 

A Hornby thread on the Hornby site suggested that CV 29 set to 6 would give good forward running on DC   but not reverse...  thus the confusion and my mild reluctance to re-set CVs 

 

Does the coal load removed give access to the gubbinses and enable an 8-pin plug to be fitted?

 

Thanks for all the replies. 

 

FWIW I bought class leader 30850 'Lord Nelson' because it is such a superb model, and late-BR was quite within my own railway experiences in the 50s and 60s. And it is a simply brilliant model.

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by robmcg
typo, added pics., explanation

[Hilux5972]

26 minutes ago, robmcg said:

Does the coal load removed give access to the gubbinses and enable an 8-pin plug to be fitted?

 

 

 

Unfortunately no. Same with all tender locos, the tender top has to come off the chassis.

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Sarahagain said:

The problem seems to be mainly “DC Runaway”.

 

 

It has been suggested that Hornby TTS decoders are particularly sensitive to DC runaway, and that seems to be the reason for the change to the CV settings.
 

I think that the first TTS locos to have this done were the Maude models...
 

 

 

This mirrors my experience. All of my issues with runaways have involved Hornby chips. I use an NCE Powercab. No problems with Lenz, Zimo, Bachmann,

or Loksound. 

[melmerby]

 

On 27/08/2020 at 22:37, robmcg said:

 

Thanks I do have an Elite controller having dabbled in DCC and DCC sound at times, my preference however is for DC analogue.  I could change the CV 29 value and get DC running perhap (that's a complicated CV I think). I buy engines mostly to photograph and enjoy on a very simple diorama, DC is fine and simple for that. All my other DCC engines run ok on it with DC.

 

Hi Rob

Download a copy of JMRI to your computer

Connect the Elite to a USB port

Open "Decoder Pro" (part of JMRI)

Then all the CV settings are accessable in tabular form

 

I'd upload a picture but RMWeb is playing up again.

 

Power Source Conversion gives choice between DCC only & Dc enabled as well

EDIT upload now possible:

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by melmerby

[robmcg]

Thanks melmerby, Hilux and others. 

 

I shall simply connect the Elite and run it as it as with TTS sound , and maybe look at CVs and enable DC out of interest.

 

On a slightly different subject, the vexed issue of Hornby green, I have been looking at lots of photos mostly colour of late BR steam locos and the matt finish disliked by some was to my eye not unknown with the real thing in BR service albeit generally somewhat darker than many Hornby releases, Kings in particular, but faded colour wasn't unknown. I think the Nelsons and recent Princess 46211 are ok.

 

Thanks again for the advice about DCC and TTS . 

 

Also, I have a diecast Atholl now in NZ...  I bought one three weeks ago in a fit of insanity on Ebay, which is actually a form of dieting; I can't afford to eat for a month.  Photos will appear eventually, but I suspect the pain still lingers for those whose pre-orders were cancelled, my condolences. The going price on Ebay when I last looked was about UKP440-499.

 

One has to ask how the recent and forthcoming releases of Nelsons and Princesses will sell.

[melmerby]

Hi Rob

Don't take the BR green as a fixed colour appearance .

 

I always remember the Castle Class in BR Green looked a different colour to e.g. a Jubilee, even though they are similar sized and had a similar general look about them.

It may have been down to variations in the overall standard of painting by different works using the same product.

 

Generally I thought ex-GWR engines looked brighter green than ex-LMS with the same green paint.

[Roy Langridge]

8 hours ago, robmcg said:

Thanks melmerby, Hilux and others. 

 

I shall simply connect the Elite and run it as it as with TTS sound , and maybe look at CVs and enable DC out of interest.

 

 

Hi Rob,

 

If you do want to change CV 29, let us know what the current value is and we can tell you what to change it to. As you say, is  a "complex" CV but it is simple binary to work out new values.

 

Roy