Hornby Announce SR 4-6-0 Lord Nelson

[G-BOAF]

6 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I regret having to say that I was not overwhelmed by the knowledge and experience when noting the work of the sound 'engineer' working at Hornby during that TV programme. I am sure he is a fine gentleman, but I suspect his access to realistic sound files, possible background in working with steam locomotives and to equipment enabling top rate programmes/files, is really limited. 

P

He was out recording the Terrier. No access problems. Obviously 850 hasn't been in steam for a few years, so probably no authentic Nelson sounds. In that case, premature to release a TTS chip? Even so, At least use generic maunsell sounds but get 8 beats per revolution.

The BBC4 documentary did show Hornby staff counting beats per rev for the Nelson (I think) so how come it got so wrong on the production chip?

[Wickham Green]

51 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

 

The BBC4 documentary did show Hornby staff counting beats per rev for the Nelson (I think) so how come it got so wrong on the production chip?

Can't recall that they realised they had to count to EIGHT ?

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, G-BOAF said:

He was out recording the Terrier. No access problems. Obviously 850 hasn't been in steam for a few years, so probably no authentic Nelson sounds. In that case, premature to release a TTS chip? Even so, At least use generic maunsell sounds but get 8 beats per revolution.

The BBC4 documentary did show Hornby staff counting beats per rev for the Nelson (I think) so how come it got so wrong on the production chip?

There’s plenty of Lord Nelson sounds, Ive got at least 30 mins with recorded going chimney first at mid hants from the front coach window, can’t get closer than that on a high quality Panasonic recorder.

(I’ve a library of hours and hours of such recordings on the Mainline & Preservation of locos) 

 

i won’t be the only one, thousands have seen / heard / recorded 850 in preservation in the last decade, indeed it’s part of the hobby for many people to make audio/video recordings.

 

more than enough material is out there to make an LN decoder chip.

 

if you’d said recordings of an SECR L1 then i’d agree that might be hard to find.

Edited April 3, 2019 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Can't recall that they realised they had to count to EIGHT ?

I mean isn't that part of basic research of a sound project (I'm not criticising the actual model itself). If Hornby are going to produce sound chips, then research is needed not only into recording the sound, but seeing how it meshes with the motion of the model.

The LN Class Wikipedia entry even mentions 8 beats, so you don't have to dig very far!

Edited April 3, 2019 by G-BOAF

[Hilux5972]

Why are we having this discussion again? The TTS are not high end decoders. They are essentially aimed at the younger end of the market, who want sound, but can’t afford £100 for it per loco. 90% of them wont realise it’s supposed to have 8 beats. The diesel TTS is far better as there is no chuff synchronisation needed and it suits the workings of a diesel better. If you want great sound then pay the extra. I’m having to and I’m not taking to RMWeb to moan about the cheap alternative!

[barrymx5]

3 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Why are we having this discussion again? The TTS are not high end decoders. They are essentially aimed at the younger end of the market, who want sound, but can’t afford £100 for it per loco. 90% of them wont realise it’s supposed to have 8 beats. The diesel TTS is far better as there is no chuff synchronisation needed and it suits the workings of a diesel better. If you want great sound then pay the extra. I’m having to and I’m not taking to RMWeb to moan about the cheap alternative!

I tend to agree. I would not buy a TTS sound chipped loco however many beats it has simply because it is not synchronised. But I, like many here, am willing to save up and get a “proper job” from Youchoos- or go without sound. Unfortunately the majority of my locos are still not sound chipped but I will fit as funds allow. But only  Locsound or Zimo. 

[G-BOAF]

I guess the whinge here is not expecting it to be all singing all dancing, but given it has to be 'designed' and they claim to use something approximating the correct sound files, why not at least try to synchronise the chuff rate; how hard can it be? This would make it a passable attempt at a sound decoder. Otherwise just stick generic chuff sounds and a pea whistle and be done with it (and don't fit them to high-end models).

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Why are we having this discussion again? The TTS are not high end decoders. They are essentially aimed at the younger end of the market, who want sound, but can’t afford £100 for it per loco. 90% of them wont realise it’s supposed to have 8 beats. The diesel TTS is far better as there is no chuff synchronisation needed and it suits the workings of a diesel better. If you want great sound then pay the extra. I’m having to and I’m not taking to RMWeb to moan about the cheap alternative!

 

Do you have facts to support your 90% claim, and what was the survey size and sample ?

 

it is meant to be  a cheaper alternative, but theres no reason it shouldnt sound right. Its a timed sound recording afterall.

The Bulleid TTS chip I thought was pretty good, using your argument they only need generic sounds like this...

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2019 by adb968008

[Ian J.]

I think the problem in this case is that the LN is without doubt a high fidelity model, very likely only to be bought by discerning adults. Putting in a 'toy train' sound decoder is arguably innappropriate, and smacks of Hornby trying to sell a few extra TTS decoders. However many of the buyers are likely to either switch the thing off, or remove it. In can backfire, of course, as in my case, and I appear not to be alone, it's put me off the purchase.

[Ian Hargrave]

6 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Why are we having this discussion again? The TTS are not high end decoders. They are essentially aimed at the younger end of the market, who want sound, but can’t afford £100 for it per loco. 90% of them wont realise it’s supposed to have 8 beats. The diesel TTS is far better as there is no chuff synchronisation needed and it suits the workings of a diesel better. If you want great sound then pay the extra. I’m having to and I’m not taking to RMWeb to moan about the cheap alternative!

 

I would not categorise these concerns in any way as a “moan “.The LN example weighs in here at £175....as opposed to £152 for the standard version.Both are,shall we say,healthy amounts of cash.My guess is that the concern is that the TTS ,being the only late crest version available for now,is the more popular for most of us and it irritates to have to shell out a further £23 for what would seem to offer a below standard product.

 

The “sound” would not bother me as I have dc analogue control. As has already been stated here,I will await either a price drop,from whatever source,or the arrival of the next production batch.

 

Your assertion that this is aimed at the younger end of the market is dubious to say the least.£175.....really ?

  

I think not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

8 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Why are we having this discussion again? The TTS are not high end decoders. They are essentially aimed at the younger end of the market, who want sound, but can’t afford £100 for it per loco. 90% of them wont realise it’s supposed to have 8 beats. The diesel TTS is far better as there is no chuff synchronisation needed and it suits the workings of a diesel better. If you want great sound then pay the extra. I’m having to and I’m not taking to RMWeb to moan about the cheap alternative!

Discussion again? Not really, it is just a comment on the poor reproduction on the Hornby Lord Nelson and that is a loco that will ore than likely find a home on a  more 'experienced' modellers layout. The suggestion is that the loco could be available without the TTS option at £23 and that, for some of us, is quite a lot of saving in cash thank you, also allowing for a personal choice of sound programme if required.

Phil

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

Do you have facts to support your 90% claim, and what was the survey size and sample ?

 

it is meant to be  a cheaper alternative, but theres no reason it shouldnt sound right. Its a timed sound recording afterall.

The Bulleid TTS chip I thought was pretty good, using your argument they only need generic sounds like this...

 

 

 

Is that Hornby’s ancient method of sandpaper on a tender axle? The sound chuffs madly away, even when decelerating and isn’t synchronised with the driving wheels’ rotation. However, at least it speeds up and slows down smoothly. TTS steam sound increases and decreases in steps, like a diesel’s notches, which is even more bizarre. As Hilux points out, TTS suits diesels better and I’m content with it for diesels but not for steam. Purely my own view. 

[Fireline]

7 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

I guess the whinge here is not expecting it to be all singing all dancing, but given it has to be 'designed' and they claim to use something approximating the correct sound files, why not at least try to synchronise the chuff rate; how hard can it be? This would make it a passable attempt at a sound decoder. Otherwise just stick generic chuff sounds and a pea whistle and be done with it (and don't fit them to high-end models).

 

I asked the question about how hard it can be. Apparently, the surprising answer is that it takes a significant amount of work. This work would have to be priced into production of the decoders, and the price to the end user would in turn rise. As a result, given that the original intention of TTS was to produce sound decoders on a budget, it was decided not to try to synchronise the sound to the wheels. I understand that the same consideration was given to making TTS work, albeit in a limited way, on DC running, much as the original Loksound equipped Hornby locos did. Again, it was found to involve too much, and therefore the cost would have risen significantly. 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

31 minutes ago, Fireline said:

 

I asked the question about how hard it can be. Apparently, the surprising answer is that it takes a significant amount of work. This work would have to be priced into production of the decoders, and the price to the end user would in turn rise. As a result, given that the original intention of TTS was to produce sound decoders on a budget, it was decided not to try to synchronise the sound to the wheels. I understand that the same consideration was given to making TTS work, albeit in a limited way, on DC running, much as the original Loksound equipped Hornby locos did. Again, it was found to involve too much, and therefore the cost would have risen significantly. 

 

 

Which then begs the question that if it cannot be made to work within realistic parameters,why bother at all ?

 

As in all things,whatever floats your boat,I suppose.Mine will stay firmly at anchor..What in essence you have here is a sophisticated state of the art model at the top of Hornby’s game coupled with a bargain cheap add on which it is considered to be fit for purpose.Something doesn’t quite fit here,does it ? 

 

Old wives saying...don’t spoil the ship for a haporth of tar.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Ian Hargrave
Spelling

[rembrow]

Hornby has been using its tts dc sound system as it's only sound system for a few years now and in recent years, on new tooling releases, have fitted it to one of the options. I use dc and in the last couple of years, models in my preferred livery were tts fitted. These were the Stanier Coronation in BR green late crest and now the Lord Nelson in BR late crest green. I made a decision in both cases, to buy the tts version and remove the chip. For Lord Nelson, because I pre ordered in January 2018, I have paid the original price of £154, rather than the current price of £175, as Hornby brought in significant price increases in Jan 2019.

While I'd prefer not to have to pay the £20 extra for tts that I don't want, I was content in early 2018 to do it, as I wasn't certain that Hornby would be producing a non tts fitted late crest version within 2 years of announcement. Of course this version was delayed, so that a non tts fitted version  could be released 6 months later ,on current release info.

 

[Wickham Green]

19 hours ago, adb968008 said:

..................... if you’d said recordings of an SECR L1 then i’d agree that might be hard to find.

I'm sure one of Peter Handford's Transacord records had an L1 on it .............. best quality recordings at the time and probably not far behind modern equipment. Always the question of copyright - but I'm sure a price cold be agreed.

 

............. trouble is we don't have the L1 to modern standards ! ( Really MUST finish my Crownline one.)

[rembrow]

On 01/04/2019 at 16:48, Mallard60022 said:

I promise I will go away soon. May I just double check that:

Nelson has a longer smokebox than Rodney?

Nelson has Bulleid Cylinders and Rodney has the originals?

Many thanks

Phil

I don't think anyone has responded to this query. I now have Lord Rodney and Lord Nelson. Lord Rodney does have the shorter smokebox and smokebox to cylinder pipes that project out further on the footplate, so that it also has different smoke deflectors with a bulge at the footplate join to the rear of the deflector to represent the pipe as it goes through the footplate. The cylinders seem to only have one variation, with Lord Nelson's having the representation of an access plate at the centre of the outside of the cylinder.

Edited April 4, 2019 by rembrow

[Hilux5972]

I meant that TTS sound is aimed at the younger market, not specifically the Lord Nelson which should have had the option of proper sound instead. TTS should in my opinion be limited to the railroad models as with Tornado, Scotsman, Mallard and Hogwarts Castle this year. 

[Ian Hargrave]

13 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

I meant that TTS sound is aimed at the younger market, not specifically the Lord Nelson which should have had the option of proper sound instead. TTS should in my opinion be limited to the railroad models as with Tornado, Scotsman, Mallard and Hogwarts Castle this year. 

 

Younger market ?  Who might they be then ?  Don’t rush to respond....

 

[Mallard60022]

24 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

I meant that TTS sound is aimed at the younger market, not specifically the Lord Nelson which should have had the option of proper sound instead. TTS should in my opinion be limited to the railroad models as with Tornado, Scotsman, Mallard and Hogwarts Castle this year. 

Well I am sorry buddy but you came across in a rather brusque way that seemed unnecessary. However what you say here is nearer the thinking we have been discussing.

Phil

[brushman47544]

I wonder if Hornby will follow Bachmann and many European brands and move towards producing DC and sound (in the form of TTS) fitted versions of the same model, rather than DC and DCC versions as they have started to do again? It would cover both markets - those who like sound but can’t afford the extra approx £100 for “standard” sound decoders and files, and those who want to fit their own choice of sound.

[adb968008]

I think you’ve ignored the alternative...

without TTS, your looking at an extra £100 on the price for a full fat chip.

 

if 30850 was only available with a full fat chip your looking at a £250+ model.

 

ive not yet heard any comments so far suggesting buying a £100+ after market sound chip to fit to one of these.

[bagnall]

On 15/03/2019 at 17:29, GeoffBird said:

Could it be that Hornby have chosen "Lord Rodney" to follow their SR liveried version as this was the only LN to retain the original cylinders and piano front  to the end.  Thus only a repainting and addition of smoke deflectors were necessary.

 

 

 

As some one else pointed out 30853 Sir Richard Grenville lasted until December 1957 in original condition before having new cylinders and smoke box fitted,  30851 Sir Francis Drake lasted until withdrawal in December 1961 with  the piano front and short smoke box although it had the later smoke deflectors with out the steam pipe bulge over the cylinders, this was due to a mix up when it had new cylinders fitted in 1949 with 8” piston valves instead of 10” so depending your modelling time scale two more locos in BR livery from renumbering 30863.  One thing that Hornby have got wrong on 30863 is the yellow triangle under the number, this should be a letter A the same colour as the numbers, it looks like they have used a photo of the loco in the Irwell book taken ex works at   Eastleigh in 1949. The letters on LSWR and Southern Railway locos built and overhauled at Eastleigh referred to the locos power classification, Ryde works on the IOW also used it and it was usually displayed on the running plate behind the front buffer, in BR days it was applied under the number and lasted into the early 50’s when it was superseded by the BR standard code above the number, Ashford and Brighton didn’t seem to use this system. The yellow triangle under the number denoted that the loco had water treatment fitted, this was used in the early sixty’s when it replaced a yellow dot under the number that had been introduced in the mid 50’s, it changed to the triangle so the yellow dot would not get confused with the Western Regions coulerd dots that where displayed on there loco cabs for route and power classification.

[Hilux5972]

15 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Well I am sorry buddy but you came across in a rather brusque way that seemed unnecessary. However what you say here is nearer the thinking we have been discussing.

Phil

Sorry that was never my intention to come across as being harsh or forceful.

As for Ian’s comment, kids up to about 14-15 is the age I was meaning.

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Sorry that was never my intention to come across as being harsh or forceful.

As for Ian’s comment, kids up to about 14-15 is the age I was meaning.

Takes a good bloke to admit they were maybe being a bit arsey. 

All the best,

Phil