Hornby Announce SR 4-6-0 Lord Nelson

[phil-b259]

I get a definite impression that, if Bachmann leave an outdated model of a popular prototype (in or out of production) , for too long with no evident intention to

upgrade it, Hornby will regard it as fair game. You missed the B1 off your list, incidentally. 

 

Dapol are doing it to both of them with the GWR Mogul and Large Prairie, so it's not just a red-on-blue thing. In the case of the Mogul, Bachmann haven't produced any for at least a decade and Hornby's Prairie is more representative of what was expected in 1988 than 2018.

 

With specific reference to the LN, IIRC Bachmann were asked about their intentions when other DCC-friendly upgrades were announced and replied to the effect that it was not a priority. Given that it took them four or five years to produce a new chassis casting for the Ivatt tank (having previously tooled everything else for the 2-6-0 version), that suggests a timescale of decades rather than years, so the way was open for any rival to jump on it. Hornby's predilection for large named (and Southern)  locos just made them the most likely candidate.

 

John

 

Very true.

 

Given the way the sales of the SECR liveried C class went, the H was an obvious goal for Bachmann - particularly as Hornby already had the M7 in their range which ticks the 'medium SR passenger tank' box.

 

However because Bachmann couldn't (due to available company resources etc) or wouldn't (didn't want to add more stuff to the backlog list), Hornby have got in there and bagged it for the red box team.

Edited April 22, 2018 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

They do have form for doing their versions of engines covered by their rival. See A4, Std.4 4-6-0 and Hall. 

 

Thats a little unfair... Hornby / Wrenn / Triang / Dublo all got there first when it came to the A4 and Std 2-6-4T, even the Hall was a Triang / Hornby product before Bachmann was a spec in the eye of Kader.

Add to that list the Class 08, 20, 25, 37, 47 & 101 were all done by Hornby before Bachmann. In Steam locos like the 9F, 82xxx were done eons' ago.

 

However thats the advantage of free market competition.. had Bachmann not repeated models of Hornby's past, we wouldnt have the superb machine the 82xxx is, we'd still be using the Triang one. We will get to say the same about the Lord Nelson, which is fair game.

 

If you look at Germany.. how many BR01 / 03/ 52 etc have been done by how many companies ?

Edited April 19, 2018 by adb968008

[Wickham Green]

So, of the 'original' Triang / Hornby Dublo / Wrenn fleets, what locos HAVEN'T been re-issued by someone or other in ( relatively ) recent years ? ...... I suppose you could argue that a decent NBL 0-4-0DH and LSWR C14 are missing ( the latter of VERY restricted use ), a couple of 4-2-2s ( would be interesting to see how they sold nowadays ), the R1 0-6-0T ( an odd choice at the time - but bits of the 'H' design could form the basis of a new one ) ........ and the L1 4-4-0 ( again, not a huge class - but design the moulds to do the 'L' as well and you're almost up to 'H' numbers ) ..................... what have I missed ?

[Iltman]

So, of the 'original' Triang / Hornby Dublo / Wrenn fleets, what locos HAVEN'T been re-issued by someone or other in ( relatively ) recent years ? ...... I suppose you could argue that a decent NBL 0-4-0DH and LSWR C14 are missing ( the latter of VERY restricted use ), a couple of 4-2-2s ( would be interesting to see how they sold nowadays ), the R1 0-6-0T ( an odd choice at the time - but bits of the 'H' design could form the basis of a new one ) ........ and the L1 4-4-0 ( again, not a huge class - but design the moulds to do the 'L' as well and you're almost up to 'H' numbers ) ..................... what have I missed ?

I have to agree that most of the Triangl/ Dublo releases from the early mid 60s have been covered recently, as for newly tooled singles IMHO they’d sell like hot cakes. Even myself, a convinced southern enthusiast would fall for a Dean single and number 123.

As for an L1 I would be very down for an L (some of them were based at Eastleigh in the early 50s), but I’m hoping some eastern section experts could answer wether an L1 could also be the base for E1/D1 models?

[jjb1970]

I like Italian HO and there seems to be far more duplication of those models than we see here yet the companies survive and keep churning out new models. And I can't see the Italian market being bigger than that for British OO (although I may be wrong).

[Colin]

I have to agree that most of the Triangl/ Dublo releases from the early mid 60s have been covered recently, as for newly tooled singles IMHO they’d sell like hot cakes. Even myself, a convinced southern enthusiast would fall for a Dean single and number 123.

As for an L1 I would be very down for an L (some of them were based at Eastleigh in the early 50s), but I’m hoping some eastern section experts could answer wether an L1 could also be the base for E1/D1 models?

 

I'm no Eastern Section expert but I have the feeling that the driving wheel spacing is closer on the D1/E1 - one of the resin body producers used to have a D1 in their range which was designed to fit a tender drive Hornby LMS 2P chassis - the 2P drivers are definitely closer than on the old L1, which, to me, actually looks pretty close to the Schools and T9 with regard to spacing. The tender is also completely different of course, guess you'd need one off a Bachmann C. 

Must dig my old Crownline L1 kit out........

[Limpley Stoker]

I was hoping front steps would be provided for larger radius curves- I used N class steps on my Bchmnn Nelson which can manage 3’ radius curves.

[Limpley Stoker]

I was hoping front steps would be provided for larger radius curves- I used N class steps on my Bchmnn Nelson which can manage 3’ radius curves.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Limpley Stoker

[Wickham Green]

I'm no Eastern Section expert but I have the feeling that the driving wheel spacing is closer on the D1/E1 - one of the resin body producers used to have a D1 in their range which was designed to fit a tender drive Hornby LMS 2P chassis - the 2P drivers are definitely closer than on the old L1, which, to me, actually looks pretty close to the Schools and T9 with regard to spacing. The tender is also completely different of course, guess you'd need one off a Bachmann C. 

Must dig my old Crownline L1 kit out........

The 'L' & 'L1' had a 10' coupled wheelbase, the 'E' & 'E1' a 9'6'' coupled wheelbase and the 'D' & 'D1' a 9'0'' coupled wheelbase - what's more, the boiler on the 'L' & 'L1'  was considerably larger than on the other locos ............................. so there's not really a lot in common other than the bogie !

[Dunsignalling]

The 'L' & 'L1' had a 10' coupled wheelbase, the 'E' & 'E1' a 9'6'' coupled wheelbase and the 'D' & 'D1' a 9'0'' coupled wheelbase - what's more, the boiler on the 'L' & 'L1'  was considerably larger than on the other locos ............................. so there's not really a lot in common other than the bogie !

I don't think the L and L1 had too much else in common between them. Unlike the D/D1 and E/E1 the L1 wasn't a rebuild from an L but a wholly new loco.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

I was hoping front steps would be provided for larger radius curves- I used N class steps on my Bchmnn Nelson which can manage 3’ radius curves.0CAFB213-F3FC-4224-A346-05B86D875424.jpeg

If you can't get hold of the required r-t-r spares, etched brass Comet ones for LMS Stanier tenders make a very good basis for this sort of thing. 

 

John

[Wickham Green]

I don't think the L and L1 had too much else in common between them. Unlike the D/D1 and E/E1 the L1 wasn't a rebuild from an L but a wholly new loco.

 

John

The differences were largely cosmetic as the 'L1' was put together in a hurry and didn't have the sophistication of the rebuilds. Apart from the tender it shouldn't be impossible for a decent Chinese factory to make models of the two classes - virtually - together.

[phil gollin]

I don't think the L and L1 had too much else in common between them. Unlike the D/D1 and E/E1 the L1 wasn't a rebuild from an L but a wholly new loco.

 

John

.

 

I don't mind which of three/six someone produces, just as long as someone orders one now.

 

Whichever a company thinks will sell best will do for me.

 

.

[Big James]

I think looking at the odds out the D,E & L the D is most likely. Mainly because one still exists.

 

But back on topic the Lord Nelson’s can’t be to far away now.

 

Big james

[Jack P]

I doubt they will model this version though...

 

  

 

 

I just wanted to bring this image forward, because it is a truly fantastic model. The thought of Hornby not producing one in malachite does make me sad, I am already sad at the H2 hasn't been announced in malachite (YET).

 

I did see it noted before that malachite versions of things have been slow sellers, Including the N15, I'm not sure if I agree with this. Hornby have so far only released one in malachite, in 2007. This was the Urie cab version, I would argue that everyone that wants one of this variant, by now has probably got one. A Maunsell cabbed malachite green would be a nice addition, and I do struggle to think It would be a bad seller, being that it's been over 10 years since the release of one that is similar.

 

Before I'm reprimanded for wishlisting, This is a very interesting thread, with lots of Southern discussion!

Edited April 30, 2018 by Jack P

[Cor-onGRT4]

Just 3 hours ago received mail from Hatton's informing the Lord Nelson Sir Francis Drake is set back in delivery from October 2018 to January 2019.

So again a delay not for another month but for 3 at once, I for myself think it will last for a little longer arround that period.

so      have a little wisthle

[Big James]

Appears all 3 have gone back to January which means my wallet can breath a sigh of relief as it gives me more time to save up.

 

But then Royal Observer Corp & the restaurant cars was both pushed back by 3 months and both come out on time. So I’ll take it with a pinch of salt.

 

Big James

Edited August 15, 2018 by Big James

[Black 5 Bear]

Streamlined Coronation also delayed until February and the J36's until January.

This along with the two Nelson class locos is going to make an expensive start to 2019 lol

[JSpencer]

I just wanted to bring this image forward, because it is a truly fantastic model. The thought of Hornby not producing one in malachite does make me sad, I am already sad at the H2 hasn't been announced in malachite (YET).

 

I did see it noted before that malachite versions of things have been slow sellers, Including the N15, I'm not sure if I agree with this. Hornby have so far only released one in malachite, in 2007. This was the Urie cab version, I would argue that everyone that wants one of this variant, by now has probably got one. A Maunsell cabbed malachite green would be a nice addition, and I do struggle to think It would be a bad seller, being that it's been over 10 years since the release of one that is similar.

 

Before I'm reprimanded for wishlisting, This is a very interesting thread, with lots of Southern discussion!

It is thing with both Bachmann and Hornby's marketing. Release regular BR colours in year 1 then follow with more obscure Malachite or blue in later years, believing that people will buy two, a regular BR then a more exotic one. That worked in the past when trains were a lot cheaper but fails now with most going I would have brought one in malachite but I have already got a loco of that class from last year. I,m sure a H2, Nelson in malachite and a Merchant Navy in blue will be pretty, but by not including them in the first run, I content myself with the ones I did buy. I,m certain others do the same which will explain poor sales.

 

To be honest I was not aware of a malachite King Author, and this could be due to the lower of interest shown by the press and online media in later repeat runs compared to the high interest shown for initial runs.

It is now a flawed strategy saving pretty colours for later years leading to poor sales.

[toboldlygo]

I'm not surprised, due to comments made about production slot issues in China, by Hornby a few months back.

 

So no need to be concerned - though I'm sure the Hornby Doom-sayers and fake news frothers, will have alternative facts to blind us with   

[Forester]

It is thing with both Bachmann and Hornby's marketing. Release regular BR colours in year 1 then follow with more obscure Malachite or blue in later years, believing that people will buy two, a regular BR then a more exotic one. That worked in the past when trains were a lot cheaper but fails now with most going I would have brought one in malachite but I have already got a loco of that class from last year. I,m sure a H2, Nelson in malachite and a Merchant Navy in blue will be pretty, but by not including them in the first run, I content myself with the ones I did buy. I,m certain others do the same which will explain poor sales.

 

To be honest I was not aware of a malachite King Author, and this could be due to the lower of interest shown by the press and online media in later repeat runs compared to the high interest shown for initial runs.

It is now a flawed strategy saving pretty colours for later years leading to poor sales.

 

I don't see evidence for any of this.

 

BR is the main seller but even here some people will wait for their preferred early or late crest condition.

 

One of the earlier liveries is always included in first year releases where appropriate - not necessarily the same one each time but they nearly always cover the major liveries within a few years.

 

I don't see the later-released  "prettier" (your word) liveries being poor sellers. There is no way the Blue Unrebuilt MN will be a poor seller! Get your orders in now.

Judging by the enormous numbers of Bachmann LNs sold on eBay over the last eight months an awful lot of people are preparing to buy the Hornby one! (same advice)

Usually where one of the earlier liveries is seen to be selling weakly it is on a model where perhaps the demand has been weaker than expected across the whole range.

 

It is frustrating to have to wait for the model you want but I would have thought by now we can all have reasonable confidence the main producers will get round to all the main liveries eventually.

[JSpencer]

I don't see evidence for any of this.

 

BR is the main seller but even here some people will wait for their preferred early or late crest condition.

 

One of the earlier liveries is always included in first year releases where appropriate - not necessarily the same one each time but they nearly always cover the major liveries within a few years.

 

I don't see the later-released  "prettier" (your word) liveries being poor sellers. There is no way the Blue Unrebuilt MN will be a poor seller! Get your orders in now.

Judging by the enormous numbers of Bachmann LNs sold on eBay over the last eight months an awful lot of people are preparing to buy the Hornby one! (same advice)

Usually where one of the earlier liveries is seen to be selling weakly it is on a model where perhaps the demand has been weaker than expected across the whole range.

 

It is frustrating to have to wait for the model you want but I would have thought by now we can all have reasonable confidence the main producers will get round to all the main liveries eventually.

 

I have reasonable confidence they will get round to it but at what price?  My H2 was ordered at £154, the H1 at £170, a malachite BR version will doubtless be £180. This is enough to make me personally go "ah well, I will stay with the one I've got".

[Forester]

I have reasonable confidence they will get round to it but at what price?  My H2 was ordered at £154, the H1 at £170, a malachite BR version will doubtless be £180. This is enough to make me personally go "ah well, I will stay with the one I've got".

 

You mentioned the Blue Unrebuilt MN. You bought a green one. Any of these MNs you could now resell on eBay for over £200, BR or Malachite. So now you buy the blue one you really wanted for £137.50 from one of our favourite dealers when it is released - and pocket a whole load of change, 

 

Secondhand values of recent well looked-after second-hand models rise in line with the cost of the new ones.

[Legend]

I don't see evidence for any of this.

 

BR is the main seller but even here some people will wait for their preferred early or late crest condition.

 

One of the earlier liveries is always included in first year releases where appropriate - not necessarily the same one each time but they nearly always cover the major liveries within a few years.

 

I don't see the later-released  "prettier" (your word) liveries being poor sellers. There is no way the Blue Unrebuilt MN will be a poor seller! Get your orders in now.

Judging by the enormous numbers of Bachmann LNs sold on eBay over the last eight months an awful lot of people are preparing to buy the Hornby one! (same advice)

Usually where one of the earlier liveries is seen to be selling weakly it is on a model where perhaps the demand has been weaker than expected across the whole range.

 

It is frustrating to have to wait for the model you want but I would have thought by now we can all have reasonable confidence the main producers will get round to all the main liveries eventually.

Agree , but it can take a long time , particularly with Bachmann . And then the version you want is only available in DCC Sound........Doh!

 

I'm still waiting for a blue 3 car 108 with large roof mounted headcode boxes and I think that model is now being "rested"

Edited August 16, 2018 by Legend

[robmcg]

You mentioned the Blue Unrebuilt MN. You bought a green one. Any of these MNs you could now resell on eBay for over £200, BR or Malachite. So now you buy the blue one you really wanted for £137.50 from one of our favourite dealers when it is released - and pocket a whole load of change, 

 

Secondhand values of recent well looked-after second-hand models rise in line with the cost of the new ones.

 

That last sentence is the crux of it all, the cost of producing a good new model is now a lot higher than even five years ago, and low-volume production as per the British RTR 00 market may not be flavour of the month for some Chinese factories and businesses.  But attractive high quality models will still sell. e.g. Hornby Clan.

 

Perhaps there is an ongoing period of adjustment to the expectations of buyers, after that glut of remaindered models a couple of years ago?