Jump to content
 

Hornby Class 31 and Finescale points


Recommended Posts

I am looking to install a couple of c&l Finescale points (OO gauge) which I understand might necessitate some rewheeling. Ultrascale seem to cover most classes but neither they nor Alan Gibson supply wheel sets for the Hornby Class 31. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm using C&L in 00. Up to now the only issue has been flange depth on pointwork - there's no problem with the flexi track with Bachmann or Gibson wheels. My solution has been to run a thin file through the vee and check rails to create a little more depth. It doesn't show unless you look directly down on the track. It's probably an easier solution than re-wheeling. Sorry I can't speak for Hornby (loco) wheels but rolling stock seems ok.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no problem with the supplied wheels on any modern RTR stock when running on C & L track.

A few very early Bachmann wheels bumped on some chairs, the tender on the Austerity being the only one I have come across.

I do sometimes wonder where these myths originate.

Bernard 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the advice. I guess the answer is to suck it and see. So far I have been working on a practice stretch before commencing work on.my layout for real and have used Tillig points with C&L flexitrack. Bachmann diesels work beautifully on this arrangement but Hornby 31s require B2B adjustment as some seem to be as far out as 13mm. I have read elsewhere that people have had problems with RTR on C&L points hence my question but I am reassured by the comment that recent RTR models should not have a problem as most of my fleet is new.

Edited by 37 011
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no problem with the supplied wheels on any modern RTR stock when running on C & L track.

A few very early Bachmann wheels bumped on some chairs, the tender on the Austerity being the only one I have come across.

I do sometimes wonder where these myths originate.

Bernard 

 

As you note - there is no problem with MODERN RTR stock.  But these "myths" - well reality actually - come from less knowledgeable / newbies buying stuff "cheap" via the likes of eBay and actually getting old stuff.  The OP doesn't state the age of his class 31.  If the current Hornby model then it will be OK with finescale track.  

 

I have an original Hornby Class 31 with Tri-Ang style wheels; gears in the centre of the wheelset, and the middle "wheel set" part of the bogie moulding sans flange.  That loco as bought will NEVER run through modern Peco pointwork, let alone finescale stuff without wheel replacement.  There are also issues with Lima locos and code 70 track; the over deep flanges run on the sleepers.  Again code 70 being a finer profile is often used for finescale track.  These are facts, they are not myth.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I find that back-to-backs are out on a lot of ready to run models.

When re-wheeling freight stock, I check the back-to-backs as a matter of course. All the Bachmann & Hornby wheelsets I have used required slight adjustment.

Romford/Markits wheels supplied with Parkside kits have always been spot on.

 

After seeing how randomly back-to-backs are set at the factories, I consider myself lucky if a new loco stays on the rails over pointwork & all. My track is Peco code 75.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In #5 you say most of your fleet is new, which seems to answer the query of old stock to odd standards. 

 

I do agree with Pete above, that there may still be a problem with new stock, not because of its specification, but rather varied standards in production with Back-to backs. That thud of a new purchase going over pointwork is a real giveaway!

 

For what its worth, there are big problems of old stock on modern fine track, although I have to say that Lima flanges on Peco Code 75 have never given a problem to me, other Code 75 with different chair mouldings may be different. My understanding is that the reason many Clubs, and hence their Exhibition layouts, stick with old Code 100 is to give flexibility to members with running their stock, and actually if painted and ballasted carefully many of us don't really notice that it isn't something finer.

 

John.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As you note - there is no problem with MODERN RTR stock.  But these "myths" - well reality actually - come from less knowledgeable / newbies buying stuff "cheap" via the likes of eBay and actually getting old stuff.  The OP doesn't state the age of his class 31.  If the current Hornby model then it will be OK with finescale track.  

 

I have an original Hornby Class 31 with Tri-Ang style wheels; gears in the centre of the wheelset, and the middle "wheel set" part of the bogie moulding sans flange.  That loco as bought will NEVER run through modern Peco pointwork, let alone finescale stuff without wheel replacement.  There are also issues with Lima locos and code 70 track; the over deep flanges run on the sleepers.  Again code 70 being a finer profile is often used for finescale track.  These are facts, they are not myth.  

 

Actually the original Triang 31 WILL run through Peco code 100 but check & adjust the B2B as required. I have one of those motor bogies (in a different loco though) also running through Peco code 75 on my layout - along with a number of steam chassis of that era too. As always, check the B2B. Only ones I have trouble with are the Lima "pizza cutter" wheels which catch the chairs.

Just checked - my Bec J17 kit is on a Jinty (type) chassis of unknown source (though it is Triang).. The wheels are of mixed ages containing both open spoke steel wheels (no nickel tyres) and solid cast wheels.

 

Stewart

Edited by stewartingram
Link to post
Share on other sites

My 31s are all post 2008. They all ‘clambered’ over the Tillig points to start with, but are fine now the B2B has been adjusted. I am reassured that things should be OK with the C&L points.

 

The photo is of 31 002 which I am in the process of converting from 31 105. Much work to do on the front to get the genuine ‘Toffee-apple’ look!

post-33138-0-44255300-1515608043_thumb.jpg

Edited by 37 011
Link to post
Share on other sites

My 31s are all post 2008. They all ‘clambered’ over the Tillig points to start with, but are fine now the B2B has been adjusted. I am reassured that things should be OK with the C&L points...

 

 The wheel profiles are fine, but the split axle construction does lead to some variability. There are further factors which haven't been mentioned yet. While the mechanism is quite sweet running, and the pick up very reliable obtained by the axle ends running in brass bars in the bogie sides, there can be future troubles.

 

For some reason the brass bars tend to take on a curve - splayed outwards - over time on many of these models. It keeps on running as smoothly as ever, until an axle end drops out of a locating hole. It will still keep going partially derailed because the efficient pick up from the other ten wheels is more than enough, and the motor has plenty of grunt. And if the derailed end is leading onto a facing finescale point, the adhesion and motor power is more than sufficient to bend a snagged point blade well out of shape. (Ask me how I know this.)

 

The mechanism is quite sweet running, but not up to full potential as supplied in my opinion. (I assume you will have removed the O ring that drives the toytown fan already.) It's the driven centre smaller wheelset which goes at the same rotational rate as the larger end wheels, so is permanently slipping. Some say that the centre wheelset is clear of the railhead, but on the four samples I have it was very much in contact with the rail. As a result there is a suspicion of cogginess at low speed.

 

If the centre axle gear muffs are slightly reamed out and then greased so that the stub axles turn freely, and thus those tyres roll at railspeed, all the smoothness that could be wished for is obtained. Not had the slghtest difficulty on track even though these wheelsets are then not constrained to gauge other than by the rails, and that's on the basis of over ten years running experience on a mixture of streamline 100 and 75 and SMP/C&L/Marcway handbuilt code 75.

 

... Much work to do on the front to get the genuine ‘Toffee-apple’ look!

 This has galled me for years, as the failure to properly represent the cab side windows recessed, so that there is then a proper step out to full body width inboard of the cab doors is a fundamental fault on this body. (So bad in my opinion in its effect on appearance that I never purchased, all the mechanisms I have are salvaged mazak rotted specimens got cheap s/h.) This is a disappointing 'blot' because in almost all other respects the appearance is the best we have ever had. (The most expertly forged nine pound note is always a fake!)

 

What to do to correct this? I think I have an answer, but don't yet have a suitable Hornby body to prove it out on. Brief description of idea. Take one Lima body where the side windows are properly recessed. Saw out the cab roof panel from join line, and side window pillars including the pillar inboard the door as a piece. On the Hornby body saw out the entire cab roof panel to join line, then remove side window pillars including pillar inboard of door. Drop in Lima roof, sprinkle magic fairy dust on joins, paint, flush glaze new side cab windows.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info, particularly on the pick-ups and the centre wheel set.

 

I agree on the window recesses but can just about live with them. I plan to do work on the front to reflect more accurately the appearance of the 31/0s. This will involve removing the lip around the steps in the plate which replaced the gangway doors, before filling both the steps. One will be concealed with an indicator disk, the other will largely be covered by moving the electrification flash to the prototypical position for a 31/0. The grab rail higher up the central plate needs to be removed and another indicator disk applied to the top left of the plate. On the subject of indicator discs, I ordered some from Moxeys but these were too large for the 31. I can produce something of the right size using plasticard and a hole punch but this lacks the hinge detail and small holefor the light, but does anyone have any better suggestions?

 

Oddly, the most grating thing about the appearance to me is the windscreen wipers. As far I can see nobody does wipers specifically for the class 31. What alternatives are there?

Edited by 37 011
Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually the original Triang 31 WILL run through Peco code 100 but check & adjust the B2B as required. I have one of those motor bogies (in a different loco though) also running through Peco code 75 on my layout - along with a number of steam chassis of that era too. As always, check the B2B. Only ones I have trouble with are the Lima "pizza cutter" wheels which catch the chairs.

Just checked - my Bec J17 kit is on a Jinty (type) chassis of unknown source (though it is Triang).. The wheels are of mixed ages containing both open spoke steel wheels (no nickel tyres) and solid cast wheels.

 

Stewart

 

Thanks for that Stewart.  Must admit, I've not tried re-gauging my old models.  I've always thought that the flange width (not depth) would be the main problem with modern track.  And they do quite happily go through Peco track from the 1980s era without adjustment; it's just more modern Peco points that have finer tolerances and give problems with my old models.

 

As for kits on Tri-Ang Jinty chassis, I've replaced the old wheels with Romfords / Markits wheels - and fully flanged.  Also replaced wheels on a Tri-Ang L1.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...
  • RMweb Gold
On 09/01/2018 at 16:28, 37 011 said:

I am looking to install a couple of c&l Finescale points (OO gauge) which I understand might necessitate some rewheeling. Ultrascale seem to cover most classes but neither they nor Alan Gibson supply wheel sets for the Hornby Class 31. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I'd like to re-ask this question as despite all my efforts on B2B etc my two relatively recent 31s will misbehave on the Peco C75 Bull head (Unifrog) points because of the relatively wide treads and the way the axles move from side to side. I'm very pleased with the points but would like to run the 31s reliably. Both Gibson and Ultrascale used to do 31 wheels but no longer...

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say misbehaving, do you mean electrically or mechanically? Is the width of the tread shorting out the frog or are the wheels bumping through the common crossing. The only reason I ask is I’m running a couple of 31’s from probably 10-15 years ago. Both have had the Mazak problems and were replaced by Hornby.

 

No problem at all through my turnouts which are hand built to 00-sf with 1mm flangeway gaps. I seem to recall Peco has 1.25mm gaps or larger, so the 31 wheels should run through easily.

 

 

Edited by gordon s
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
5 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

Electrically - the (uni)frogs are so short the wide Hornby wheel cause a short circuit at the heel end of the point. Very noticeable with sound sadly...

I'm hoping these kits may provide a relatively easy solution in  00...

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is some info here regarding unifrog and I can see the gaps are quite small once you have passed through the frog itself. I haven’t got one to play around with, but fairly sure with a small modification it would be possible to widen that gap by lengthening the frog element and moving the isolation gap further out.

 

There is a comment about wheels and NEM standards...

 

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrogp

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

So, how do I adjust the back to backs on loco driving wheels? Aren't they fixed solidly to the axles? How do I adjust them without wrecking the loco?

 

The traditional approach involved a largish flat screwdriver placed against the hub at the axle and turned slowly to force the wheel outward. There can be a risk you end iup with a wobbling eccentric wheel . There are also devices called wheel pullers

 

The wheels aren't fixed solidly to the axle but are a seperate item with a very tight interference fit to the axle 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Are you sure the your problem is caused by the wheel tread? The most commonly documented problem with the unifrogs is when a wheel flange touches the rail behind it near the insulating gaps.

 

There’s a simple fix for that problem that it might be worth trying before modifying the turnout or the loco (assuming the back-to-backs are within acceptable tolerance): paint nail varnish on the inside of the rails near the insulating gaps, not the rail surface, to prevent the wheel flanges making electrical contact.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

Are you sure the your problem is caused by the wheel tread? The most commonly documented problem with the unifrogs is when a wheel flange touches the rail behind it near the insulating gaps.

 

There’s a simple fix for that problem that it might be worth trying before modifying the turnout or the loco (assuming the back-to-backs are within acceptable tolerance): paint nail varnish on the inside of the rails near the insulating gaps, not the rail surface, to prevent the wheel flanges making electrical contact.

 

I've tried the surface but not back - I'll give it a go.

Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...